DACs - Should I care?

[RichB]

*How do you KNOW that the DAC and/or the DAC circuitry accounts for the difference in sound quality?
.

I don't know, my point is that folks just say DAC when the surrounding circuitry counts.

*You state that the preamp section is more robust in the HA-1, but then attribute the better sound to the DAC.
.

I did not intend to

*
*Would you upgrade your Pre or AVR simply based on the new model "having a better DAC". Because that is what the OP is asking, and my answer is that spending that kind of money simply on a "better piece of silicon DAC" is a poor way to use $ to try to guarantee better sound quality.

No, I would not, but were I looking I would consider the Yamaha CX-A5000 because it has excellent measurements.
My point it the entire product must be considered not just the model number on the chip.

... and of course, everything does not sound the same

- Rich

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Yes, I have read a lot about the salks. Seems like no one has anything negative to to say and all are positive.
It is just difficult to listen to Salks as they are sold through the internet. I have thought of driving to Detroit a few times to meet with Jim Salk and listen to them there.

Jim is very nice guy and easy to talk to. He's often on one audio show or another. Including upcoming Chicago show.
Maybe there's a local SALK owner willing to give you a demo.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I definitely wouldn't lose any sleep over the DAC itself.

Some people think they hear a difference. Some people don't think they hear a difference.

I think there may be other things happening inside the components that could make the sound different - like EQ, DSP, or higher gain, even if they claim not to use them.

So it's not one part that makes a difference; it's the sum of all the parts.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Wow, that's as close to resounding agreement as I've ever seen on the audio boards! Thanks for the comment, folks. I'll stop worrying about DAC chips now.

 

[PENG]

So would the AKM 4490 DAC that is used in the Marantz 8802 not bring any improvement from the TI PCM 1795 used in the 8801? Everything I read says the 4490 is from their reference series and would bring a noteable difference.

http://www.akm.com/file.jsp?id=273638
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm1795.pdf

AKM4490 vs PCM1795:

THD+N: 0.00025% vs 0.0005%
SN: 120 dB vs 123 dB
DR: 120 dB vs 123 dB

Above is of course a very rough comparison of specs only. In that sense the TI (Burr Brown) DAC has better SN and DR while the AKM has better distortion but the difference are theoretically insignificant to our hearing ability. As Rich said many times, there are other things surround the DAC chips that perhaps matter more.

 

[PENG]

Wow, that's as close to resounding agreement as I've ever seen on the audio boards! Thanks for the comment, folks. I'll stop worrying about DAC chips now.

In case you change you mind, please note that when comparing DAC you cannot assume ESS is better than TI and TI is better than Wolfson, AKM, Cirrus Logic etc. All of them have their flag ship, mid range and entry level DACs. You have to know the exact DACs model/part numbers in order to even compare them on paper.

 

[PENG]

Thanks everyone. Several individuals in various forums are saying the new Marantz 7702 sounds better than the 8801, and I would assume the 8802 should be better than the 7702. Not sure why unless people think it should sound better because it is "new and improved". Based most of your comments, it sounds like my 8801 should be sufficient and any improvement would be negligible.

If you meant the avsforum and the posts by that Steve dealer, I would say those are mostly subjective and speculative based comments. I am some might have been factual but it's not easy for us to verify. I find the comments about the re-worked HDAM modules extremely funny, its like we should believe that those tweaks could translate into audible sound quality improvements; and you have to wonder why Marantz didn't bother with such tweaks before and yet their marketing people were so proud of their HDAMs in the 8801 and other previous generations AVR/prepros. Ridiculous yet so entertaining to read. It really is an easy choice between the 7702 and 8802 if one knows what one needs and wants.

 

[BWguy]

Although feature set is similar, 8802 is double the price of the 7702.

 

[PENG]

Although feature set is similar, 8802 is double the price of the 7702.

So for HT only the 7702 may be better for you but if you believe in better DAC, copper plate shielding, higher grade transformer would result in audible difference even for HT then get the 8802.

 

[BWguy]

Based on your comments and since I am 75% music, don't need hdmi 2.0 (at least for now), and will probably never use Dolby atmos, I will stay with my 8801 for now.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Based on your comments and since I am 75% music, don't need hdmi 2.0 (at least for now), and will probably never use Dolby atmos, I will stay with my 8801 for now.

Good call. Possibly invest in room treatments to improve acoustics. After speakers it would provide biggest improvements

 

[RichB]

So for HT only the 7702 may be better for you but if you believe in better DAC, copper plate shielding, higher grade transformer would result in audible difference even for HT then get the 8802.

I never believed in copper shielding that restricts airflow in a product that put the ehternet hub on the wrong side of the shield

That feature is present in the AV8802 but has been pushed from the front page

- Rich

 

[RichB]

If you meant the avsforum and the posts by that Steve dealer, I would say those are mostly subjective and speculative based comments. I am some might have been factual but it's not easy for us to verify. I find the comments about the re-worked HDAM modules extremely funny, its like we should believe that those tweaks could translate into audible sound quality improvements; and you have to wonder why Marantz didn't bother with such tweaks before and yet their marketing people were so proud of their HDAMs in the 8801 and other previous generations AVR/prepros. Ridiculous yet so entertaining to read. It really is an easy choice between the 7702 and 8802 if one knows what one needs and wants.

Steve is very positive. I doubt I would buy another Marantz product until they figure out how to make a trigger. It may not be rational but they really pissed me off

There is a tendency for companies to release the product that is reference quality until the follow-on product finds so many ways to improve it to the new reference quality. Rinse and repeat

- Rich

 

[RichB]

I definitely wouldn't lose any sleep over the DAC itself.

Some people think they hear a difference. The rest of us cannot hear any significant difference.

I think there may be other things happening inside the components that could make the sound difference - like EQ, DSP, or higher gain, even if they claim not to use them.

Some people think they don't.

I guess on the just not part of the rest of us club. A risk I'll have to take

- Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

Upgrading your pre for a better DAC is about like upgrading your car for better tires.

That's a really bad analogy. Tires can make a very significant difference in how a car performs.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

That's a really bad analogy. Tires can make a very significant difference in how a car performs.

I agree, that's why i mentioned cup holders

 

[Irvrobinson]

I agree, that's why i mentioned cup holders

Actually, he sounds like my wife, and she should know better because she's a car enthusiast. If you ask her about tires all she knows is that "they're round and they're black".

DAC chips may be indistinguishable these days, but the analog circuitry... I'm not so sure about. There may be audible differences between op-amp and power supply designs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Wow, that's as close to resounding agreement as I've ever seen on the audio boards! Thanks for the comment, folks. I'll stop worrying about DAC chips now.

The product as a whole is important. Don't worry about one or two internal parts like DAC.

 

[PENG]

I never believed in copper shielding that restricts airflow in a product that put the ehternet hub on the wrong side of the shield

That feature is present in the AV8802 but has been pushed from the front page

- Rich

Yet you seem to believe other things that are not necessarily more important than copper shielding. Copper shielding is in theory a good idea and it actually can help dissipating heat if used properly. I understand you have bad experience with the 8801/trigger but many are happy user. I have learnt from you experience and installed two fans but have forgotten to turn them on a few time and found the temperature to be only in the high 40s even though I have only 2 inches of clearance on the sides and top to ventilate. Just about every brand and model, if you Google hard enough you bound to find reports of failures. I bet that will be the case with the 8802 but only time will tell for sure.

 

[RichB]

Yet you seem to believe other things that are not necessarily more important than copper shielding. Copper shielding is in theory a good idea and it actually can help dissipating heat if used properly. I understand you have bad experience with the 8801/trigger but many are happy user. I have learnt from you experience and installed two fans but have forgotten to turn them on a few time and found the temperature to be only in the high 40s even though I have only 2 inches of clearance on the sides and top to ventilate. Just about every brand and model, if you Google hard enough you bound to find reports of failures. I bet that will be the case with the 8802 but only time will tell for sure.

Anecdotal to be sure. I didn't go looking for issues with the AV8801, they found me

Keep the fans on, my dealer told me he that 10% of his units he sold had trigger failures.

One day, I noticed excessive hiss coming from the speakers that went away when wiggling the power cord. During the first repair, they replaced the power receptacle.

There have been a couple of reports (on AVS) of trigger failures with the AV7702.

- Rich