DACs - Should I care?

[Dr. Bob]

Should I care what DACs my next receiver has?

Yamaha uses Burr-Brown DACs in most of their line-up. To get the higher-quality (presumably) ESS SABRE DACs, you have to go to A1040 or higher, and pay $1200+.

Pioneer, on the other hand, has the VSX-1124-K, which sports ESS SABRE Dacs for only $600. I have thought of Pioneer as a mass-market company, rather than an audiophile company, in the past. But their Elite SC line (also with ESS DACs) has gotten glowing reviews, so I'm wondering if these are worth considering.

Many other companies don't even tell you what DACs they are using.

If I understand things correctly, when I connect my disc player to my receiver by HDMI, the player is just sending the bit stream straight from the disc, with no processing. The receiver is doing the digital-to-analog conversion and all subsequent processing, right? So getting a high-quality DAC is like buying a whole new disc player.

I'm also planning to stream music from my PC. Here, too, the receiver's DACs are what's used to convert the bit stream into audio, so I want high quality.

Or is this a case where the electronics are already so good that I won't be able to hear any difference? What do folks think?

 

[Nestor]

DACs are a commodity item. The only audibly noticeable DAC is a defective one.

There's lots of things to compare between the Yamaha and Pioneer AVRs, but DACs isn't one of them.

 

[Swerd]

I've heard DACs in two different receivers (Denon and B&K), and 3 different disc players (Sony and Panasonic). I can confidently say I've never heard any significant difference among these DACs.

I've never listened to any system that had a stand-alone DAC, so I can't comment on them other than to say I'd be very surprised to hear one that actually did make an audible difference.

The DACs used in AV receivers, disc players, and TVs are mass produced chips that are said to cost the large manufacturers pennies when they buy in large quantities. As far as I understand, as long as they comply with the specs from Dolby, DTS, and standard red book CD, there is probably little difference among them.

The names of the DAC chip makers, such as Burr-Brown or ESS Sabre, alone mean nothing.

 

[slipperybidness]

DACs are a commodity item. The only audibly noticeable DAC is a defective one.

There's lots of things to compare between the Yamaha and Pioneer AVRs, but DACs isn't one of them.

+1

Maybe 30 years ago the quality and implementation of the DACs could have been a valid item to consider.

Modern times, Nestor nailed it.

 

[BWguy]

So would the AKM 4490 DAC that is used in the Marantz 8802 not bring any improvement from the TI PCM 1795 used in the 8801? Everything I read says the 4490 is from their reference series and would bring a noteable difference.

 

[slipperybidness]

So would the AKM 4490 DAC that is used in the Marantz 8802 not bring any improvement from the TI PCM 1795 used in the 8801?

Measurable improvement?

Or audible improvement?

Almost certainly no audible improvement or difference. Just maybe a measurable difference on the bench.

Are you going to measure your DAC, or are you going to listen to it?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

If you could ever somehow distinguish (for example) difference between -120db and -125db thd , I say that your day job as a journalist is a cover up and let everyone know who you are really..... Clark Kent!

 

[BWguy]

Ok, thanks. I currently have the 8801 but have been considering the new 8802 based on preliminary reviews that the DAC is much improved. I am about 75/25 music/movies.
Of course I have not seen any actual reviews as I don't believe any retailers have received the 8802 yet.

 

[Swerd]

Ok, thanks. I currently have the 8801 but have been considering the new 8802 based on preliminary reviews that the DAC is much improved. I am about 75/25 music/movies.
Of course I have not seen any actual reviews as I don't believe any retailers have received the 8802 yet.

I wouldn't trust any salesman or review that claimed audible differences between two AVRs are caused by different DACs.

 

[slipperybidness]

Ok, thanks. I currently have the 8801 but have been considering the new 8802 based on preliminary reviews that the DAC is much improved. I am about 75/25 music/movies.
Of course I have not seen any actual reviews as I don't believe any retailers have received the 8802 yet.

Upgrading your pre for a better DAC is about like upgrading your car for better tires.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Upgrading your pre for a better DAC is about like upgrading your car for better tires.

Better cup holder ;-)

 

[RichB]

A DAC is always surrounded by circuitry. On the way in, you have HDMI, COAX, TOSLink getting the data with varying levels of jitter and possibly re-clocking. LPCM over HDMI is passed between video frames and must be re-clocked.

The data stream has to be delivered to and properly clocked by the DAC.
After the DAC, the pre-amplification section kicks in.

There is a lot more around the DAC than the DAC itself. There can be a correlation between a good surrounding implementation and a DAC.

The BDP-105D and HA-1 use the same ESS9018 DAC in different configurations. The preamp section is more robust on the HA-1. The 105D uses the DAC for volume control and the HA-1 uses a ALPS Pot.

Both have excellent measurements, but the HA-1 measures better and sounds better when used as a USB DAC in my system.

- Rich

 

[Seth=L]

At that level, when comparing receivers such as this, no discernible difference in "DAC" will be audibly apparent. If you're buying it for your cat or dog, they might notice a difference, but they don't really care.

 

[BWguy]

Thanks everyone. Several individuals in various forums are saying the new Marantz 7702 sounds better than the 8801, and I would assume the 8802 should be better than the 7702. Not sure why unless people think it should sound better because it is "new and improved". Based most of your comments, it sounds like my 8801 should be sufficient and any improvement would be negligible.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Something tells me that you like B&W speakers. Nothing wrong with that, but you could go out and audition some new speakers and/or subwoofer. These could improve sound much more than new dac

 

[BWguy]

I am not necessarily unhappy with the sound, I just am always looking for ways to improve.

I have B&W 804d's. I got a nice price for floor samples a few years ago. I also have a SVS PB 13 sub. This is probably not the right forum, but what speakers do you like that might be an improvement?

 

[slipperybidness]

A DAC is always surrounded by circuitry. On the way in, you have HDMI, COAX, TOSLink getting the data with varying levels of jitter and possibly re-clocking. LPCM over HDMI is passed between video frames and must be re-clocked.

The data stream has to be delivered to and properly clocked by the DAC.
After the DAC, the pre-amplification section kicks in.

There is a lot more around the DAC than the DAC itself. There can be a correlation between a good surrounding implementation and a DAC.

The BDP-105D and HA-1 use the same ESS9018 DAC in different configurations. The preamp section is more robust on the HA-1. The 105D uses the DAC for volume control and the HA-1 uses a ALPS Pot.

Both have excellent measurements, but the HA-1 measures better and sounds better when used as a USB DAC in my system.

- Rich

*How do you KNOW that the DAC and/or the DAC circuitry accounts for the difference in sound quality?
*You state that the preamp section is more robust in the HA-1, but then attribute the better sound to the DAC.
*Would you upgrade your Pre or AVR simply based on the new model "having a better DAC". Because that is what the OP is asking, and my answer is that spending that kind of money simply on a "better piece of silicon DAC" is a poor way to use $ to try to guarantee better sound quality.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I am not necessarily unhappy with the sound, I just am always looking for ways to improve.

I have B&W 804d's. I got a nice price for floor samples a few years ago. I also have a SVS PB 13 sub. This is probably not the right forum, but what speakers do you like that might be an improvement?

It depends on personal preferences and budget. For example my dream speakers are Salk Soundscape 8. I never heard better speakers at any price point (including $100k Wilson)

 

[BWguy]

Yes, I have read a lot about the salks. Seems like no one has anything negative to to say and all are positive.
It is just difficult to listen to Salks as they are sold through the internet. I have thought of driving to Detroit a few times to meet with Jim Salk and listen to them there.

 

[markw]

I am not necessarily unhappy with the sound, I just am always looking for ways to improve.

I have B&W 804d's. I got a nice price for floor samples a few years ago. I also have a SVS PB 13 sub. This is probably not the right forum, but what speakers do you like that might be an improvement?

"Improve" is a relative/subjective term. Virtually all speakers will sound "different" and you'd be surprised at how many might be an improvement if you go out and listen to them. The level of improvement might not even be directly related to price.

Methinks that you just want change that might result in an "improvement" and are hoping to find it in a DAC.

Personally, I find the sound of Magnapan speakers to be an "improvement" to the traditional B&W sound but, then again, that's my personal preference.