D&M just blurred the line again, should they go much further?

hemiram

hemiram

Full Audioholic
There are still the main brands as well as several boutique brands, some just under one owner and so far apparently each brand will survive on its own under SU (but for how long could be interesting).
Sadly, I would be shocked if, at least on the low end SU stuff, that the various AVRs will not be all identical inside, with only looks and some firmware changes to make them "unique". I expect them to blend even further that that actually, where the same unit internally is sold as an "upgrade" with features added at extra cost. They are doing this with "cheap" oscilloscopes, where the only difference is how many features are unlocked. One company is kind of bucking that trend, their scopes cost a little more than the nearly identical other brand, but all the features are enabled with out an extra purchase. I can't remember it now off the top of my head. I almost pulled the trigger on one, but it would only be used once in a while, and I just couldn't spend the money on it.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Sadly, I would be shocked if, at least on the low end SU stuff, that the various AVRs will not be all identical inside, with only looks and some firmware changes to make them "unique". I expect them to blend even further that that actually, where the same unit internally is sold as an "upgrade" with features added at extra cost. They are doing this with "cheap" oscilloscopes, where the only difference is how many features are unlocked. One company is kind of bucking that trend, their scopes cost a little more than the nearly identical other brand, but all the features are enabled with out an extra purchase. I can't remember it now off the top of my head. I almost pulled the trigger on one, but it would only be used once in a while, and I just couldn't spend the money on it.
Most consumers wouldn't know the difference in spec among brands, let alone even silly hi-end brands....
 
hemiram

hemiram

Full Audioholic
Most consumers wouldn't know the difference in spec among brands, let alone even silly hi-end brands....
That's true, but it still saddens me to think the variety of stuff we had is disappearing daily. It's like all the watches with the same guts.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Yeah, that's a per store thing. Dude that initially came up to you probably wasn't even in that dept.

The BB near me is good, but it's one of the few I can say that about. Most are just terrible.

My brother-in-law actually works in the A/V dept and he knows his stuff pretty well, but is sold on all the Dolby Vision stuff to the point he will only stream stuff that includes Dolby Vision even though the quality of the stream can't be as good as an actual BD.

I actually worked for Circuit City when they died. My store was pretty great, but again, those places are only as good as their management. Most are just told to sell as much as possible and add on accessories and installs to make as much margin as possible.

Magnolia stores are different. They actually do large high end installs. My brother was an installer for them for a while and he did some pretty huge money installs during that time.

Too bad a lot of the mom and pop shops are gone. I would much rather spend my money with them, but can always get better deals online. :(
Yeah, Noah is in the TV department. Every time he sells a TV, he tries to sell a sound bar and it's not the better ones, it's always the $99 one. Every time I asked a question, he looked it up on his smart phone and read the info to me. Training? What training?

High end installs are great, but that's the install department, not sales, and those are nothing the rest of the customers will ever see unless the homeowner allows photos without any indication of where the place is.

Price overtook quality in the early-'80s and it's the fault of the consumers for accepting nothing less than the lowest price. Ir's also the fault of lazy retailers for laying down and giving in. If someone has products and services that are better than the competition, they should damn well fight for the price they want and need but they need to make the customer understand why their offerings are better and what will be lost if they go cheap.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Yea I also asked Sound United if it were possible to reduce the voltage gain of their amp stages going forward so they wouldn't clip until the preamp drive level is 2Vrms instead of 1.2Vrms. Most amplifiers will hit full power at 2Vrms. This would clean up the FFT on the preouts by not clipping the power amps. The good news is I'm on contact with their head of engineering and he's taking my findings seriously. I suspect the SR8015 will either have a preamp mode or some adjustment to allow higher preout drive without clipping the power amps. We shall see.
Why not shut off the B+ to the power amp when it won't be used?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Cost..
Besides, they probably think that most people don't/won't use AVR as prepro only.
I would bet they'll see fewer returned AVRs if they did this.

Most people wouldn't use it this way, but that's the reason I have been saying I want a modular video section and pre/pro at a more reasonable price. Power amps aren't so expensive now that it would be a deal-breaker for many people but the extra space required might be.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I would bet they'll see fewer returned AVRs if they did this.

Most people wouldn't use it this way, but that's the reason I have been saying I want a modular video section and pre/pro at a more reasonable price. Power amps aren't so expensive now that it would be a deal-breaker for many people but the extra space required might be.
An alternative similar to yours is to stop making AVRs with pre outs, and all legacy connections, forcing people to either go with prepros or AVRs, and to give up on legacy connections. That should help manufacturers to become more cost effective in making both prepros and AVRs. Specific to D&M, they should also scrap the bs HDAM in their Marantz AVRs that logically speaking is a total waste of money. They may have a place in prepros if they do work as advertized, but only in terms of potentially more compatible to more power amps.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Yea I also asked Sound United if it were possible to reduce the voltage gain of their amp stages going forward so they wouldn't clip until the preamp drive level is 2Vrms instead of 1.2Vrms. Most amplifiers will hit full power at 2Vrms. This would clean up the FFT on the preouts by not clipping the power amps. The good news is I'm on contact with their head of engineering and he's taking my findings seriously. I suspect the SR8015 will either have a preamp mode or some adjustment to allow higher preout drive without clipping the power amps. We shall see.
Last time I email D&M (Marantz) about the huge distortion measured by audiosciencereview.com due to the DAC filter setting, they responded within about a week so I hope you will get similar responsive feedback from them on this new issue you found on the pre out triggered by the power amp clipping even when unloaded.

On my own, I did spend more time going through the AVR-X6400H's protection diagram that appears to be the same as the SR8012. It is on p.155 of the service manual if you can spare the time. The schematic shows all the protection features that include:

- Heat sink (they call it "radiator:D") thermal
- Short circuit between speaker terminals, or "impedance outside the rating..."
- DC (output of power amp is abnormal..)
- Over current "flowed in the power amp"

So you are right (as expected..) your full bandwidth sweep likely has caused the unit to shut down on "DC", due to the power amp clipping even when unloaded. You could actually view the protection history on the status display.

I think a good question for D&M, at the minimum, is whether they have build in enough time delay in the "DC" protection one, to avoid nuisance shutdown for real world use when the pre out has to exceed say 2.5 V when driving external high power amps (e.g. 300/500W) with moderate gains in the 26-30 dB range. If they do, then as you alluded to, this may only be a real problem on the test bench, but not necessarily for real world use.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
stop making AVRs with pre outs, and all legacy connections, forcing people to either go with prepros or AVRs, and to give up on legacy connections.
I like your idea!

I bet so does TLS Guy. :D

I think most AVRs and most situations don't need extra amps.

And if your system truly needs extra amps, then you probably should get a Pre-pro. :D
 
Last edited:
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
And if your system truly needs extra amps, then you probably should get a Pre-pro. :D
The only reason I prefer AVR at the moment is to save money.

AV7705 - 2199
SR7013 or AVR-X4500H - 1399.99 $800 less for the same performance.

CX-A5100 - 2,499
RX-A3080 - 1999.95, $500 less for the same performance.
RX-A3070 - 1,299

If people who need to use external power amps, and are forced to go with prepros, then I bet the price of prepros will drop significantly, and the one year outdated models will go for deep discounts just like what has been happening with AVRs.
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
The only reason I prefer AVR at the moment is to save money.

AV7705 - 2199
SR7013 or AVR-X4500H - 1399.99 $800 less for the same performance.

CX-A5100 - 2,499
RX-A3080 - 1999.95, $500 less for the same performance.
RX-A3070 - 1,299

If people who need to use external power amps, and are forced to go with prepros, then I bet the price of prepros will drop significantly, and the one year outdated models will go for deep discounts just like what has been happening with AVRs.
Yes, but with ever increasing channel count, the trend is to allow assignment of existing amps.
I'd rather buy an AVR-4500NA, where NA = no amps :)

- Rich
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Yes, but with ever increasing channel count, the trend is to allow assignment of existing amps.
I'd rather buy an AVR-4500NA, where NA = no amps :)

- Rich
Same idea, then it is a prepro, or AVP-4500.., and price will improve due to much higher sales volume.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The only reason I prefer AVR at the moment is to save money.

AV7705 - 2199
SR7013 or AVR-X4500H - 1399.99 $800 less for the same performance.

CX-A5100 - 2,499
RX-A3080 - 1999.95, $500 less for the same performance.
RX-A3070 - 1,299

If people who need to use external power amps, and are forced to go with prepros, then I bet the price of prepros will drop significantly, and the one year outdated models will go for deep discounts just like what has been happening with AVRs.
Since the CX-A5100 is an older model, people might be able to find a local dealer that could get it close to the price of the X4500, but not the X4400. :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Since the CX-A5100 is an older model, people might be able to find a local dealer that could get it close to the price of the X4500, but not the X4400. :D
It's a vicious circle. Lot's of people are still using AVRs with amps, that's the problem.
 
Y

yodog

Audiophyte
Well I’m in the market for a new AVP or AVR with preouts that can drive 1.5Vrms which is what’s needed for my power amp (Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 3) needs to reach its full 250w rms per Channel with all channels driven. Would the Marantz 7705 be clipping or having problems driving my amp to full power? If so, then essentially according to what I read in this thread, the Denon 3600 AVR is more suitable as a pre pro than the Marantz AV7705 because it can at least let my power amplifier reach full potential?
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Well I’m in the market for a new AVP or AVR with preouts that can drive 1.5Vrms which is what’s needed for my power amp (Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 3) needs to reach its full 250w rms per Channel with all channels driven. Would the Marantz 7705 be clipping or having problems driving my amp to full power? If so, then essentially according to what I read in this thread, the Denon 3600 AVR is more suitable as a pre pro than the Marantz AV7705 because it can at least let my power amplifier reach full potential?
The dedicated prepros from Marantz have plenty of drive for your amp. Never switch from a current Prepro to an AVR to use as a Prepro.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Marantz AV7705 or Yamaha CX-A5100/5200 pre-pros should be good.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
The dedicated prepros from Marantz have plenty of drive for your amp. Never switch from a current Prepro to an AVR to use as a Prepro.
What about the Denon avr he's considering for pre-out level? I'd think it is quite sufficient as well for pre-out level at least. Not having had a dedicated pre-pro and just avrs with pre-outs due pricing I don't have the switching horses thing at all and until pre-pros are more reasonably priced I think many will still consider an avr with pre-outs. I just don't need the power amps these days at the levels I'm listening at in my various systems with avrs. I do have the amps should I want to get louder, tho and its always interesting to see if there is particular pre-out level info.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Audiosciencereview.com reviewed the RX-A1080, the thing would shut down even with single tone (1,000 Hz) with pre out outputting at not much higher than 1.5 V, so no better than the RX-A860 that Gene measured last year. The amp measured better than both the Anthem MRX 520 and NAD T758 V3, but the MRX pre out performed much better.
 

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