D&M just blurred the line again, should they go much further?

panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
If I imagine becoming the head of their marketing department, say something like V.P. marketing SU international. I would consider the following scenario:

Pioneer:
- Concentrate on Class D, continue R&D for improvements in low impedance capability and cost.

Onkyo:
Merge their integrated amp/power amp/AVR team with D&M, focus on AVP only based on Integra's.

Rational:
- Integra has been making AVP for the longest time, their team(s) likely have more experience than Marantz so let them take the lead.
- Onkyo AVRs, fair or not, seem to have less favorable reliability reputation than Denon and Marantz.
- Pioneer has been making class D based AVRs for the longest time.

D&M:
- continue the same path, but merge the AVP team with Integra's
- Take the lead in integrating everyone's media players and other devices into one.
- Take the lead in integrating everyone's preamp/integrated amp/power amp divisions.
- The integrated amp division can still promote class D amps under Marantz (merge/synergize with Pioneer's) and class AB amps under Denon (merge with Marantz, take the lead, or let Marantz lead, depending on who has better infrastructure).

Other than that, as alluded to before, synergize further to the point when a potential shopper ask which one to go with, the answer based on facts, not myth/hearsay from the past will be:

- No difference in audio specs between the corresponding models, so you can make your choice base on look, style, connectivity, and features, and most importantly, output power requirement.

Differentiate their brands on the sound signature myth (ref: the AH posted Y-tube video) makes no sense, borderline on being dishonest..I think besides you and I, our friends like @mtrycrafts , @lovinthehd , @AcuDefTechGuy..etc., or even @TLS Guy would agree with me on this point.

One good thing about leaving things alone is, so SU can sell off any one of the brands for a profit, but how likely would that be? And if it isn't that, and yet do nothing, then what is the point of acquiring all these good old brands?

Imo it is high time they integrate/synergize the brands to optimize cost and take the lead in simplifying and demystifying to help potential buyers make their informed decision, without resorting to feeding/misleading them with hypes and myths, but educate them with facts and figures.
Sounds like a solid approach to me.

I think the idea of keeping models different under the brands makes a lot of sense too. No reason at all to have a Marantz product be practically identical to a Denon product with a few small differences. Makes a lot more sense to say "if you want that feature, you go with the slightly higher end Marantz".

I don't know if they should kill or keep the Onkyo or Integra brands. Seems like it would be difficult to differentiate between them and the Denon/Marantz models if they are all going to eventually be done by the same teams. Granted, that may not happen. They may keep everything separate for years to come, but that's not normally how these types of mergers happen. One brand usually gets chopped.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Somehow I think people like us are bad businessmen. :D

We would tell the truth and make products that last 20 years. :eek:

We can't lie like Bose. :D

But, yeah, it would be good if you worked for D/M and straighten them up. First thing is to fire those Panurgy people. :D
I hear you. Maybe worst for us trained engineer and pharmacist!!
 
hemiram

hemiram

Full Audioholic
I've spent quite a lot of time listening to a friend's Marantz 7012, and I really don't think it sounds much different than his hit by lightning Denon X4400H did before it got popped, HDAM and all that seemed meaningless. I personally don't like the looks of the Marantz receivers all that much, but I have to give them some credit for not looking like everyone else's mainstream AVRs. They both sound fine, IMHO, only thing lacking on either of them was enough power output. Running his smaller HT (How nice is it to have two of them?) both needed help playing music or a movie loudly.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Among large manufacturers of AVR's Is it now Yamaha against the world?
I guess we can consider Sony in the fray, but I'm not sure their offerings cover the mid to upper priced segment.
 
hemiram

hemiram

Full Audioholic
It seems to be heading that way, Yamaha going it alone versus the Empire of SU. So many brands of receivers back when I was in high school, and most all of them are long gone now.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
It seems to be heading that way, Yamaha going it alone versus the Empire of SU. So many brands of receivers back when I was in high school, and most all of them are long gone now.
There are still the main brands as well as several boutique brands, some just under one owner and so far apparently each brand will survive on its own under SU (but for how long could be interesting).
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
While the Denon AVR-X3600H and Marantz SR6014 are more similar then they are different, the SR6014 does at least have some enhancements from a quick glance such as:
  • 110wpc vs 105wpc of Denon
  • slightly larger power supply (680 watt power consumption vs 670 watts of Denon 3600 model) - note this is likely NOT a max power rating but instead with 2CH driven with other channels driven 1/8th)
  • HDAM pre-circuit
  • 2lbs heavier
That said, The Denon has a solid preamp drive as you can see in this preview article:
https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3600h

It's also the least expensive AVR on the market with 11CH of processing with the ability to reassign the front channels so a 2CH external amp can be used for the main front L/R.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
While the Denon AVR-X3600H and Marantz SR6014 are more similar then they are different, the SR6014 does at least have some enhancements from a quick glance such as:
  • 110wpc vs 105wpc of Denon
  • slightly larger power supply (680 watt power consumption vs 670 watts of Denon 3600 model) - note this is likely NOT a max power rating but instead with 2CH driven with other channels driven 1/8th)
  • HDAM pre-circuit
  • 2lbs heavier
That said, The Denon has a solid preamp drive as you can see in this preview article:
https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3600h

It's also the least expensive AVR on the market with 11CH of processing with the ability to reassign the front channels so a 2CH external amp can be used for the main front L/R.
It is nice to see SU is willing to share that Output vs THD graph with AH. I don't recall seeing anything like that before. Hope to see the same from Marantz too.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
It is nice to see SU is willing to share that Output vs THD graph with AH. I don't recall seeing anything like that before. Hope to see the same from Marantz too.
So the Pre-out Voltage is good.

Would be nice if they shared the Power output vs THD too. :D
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
So the Pre-out Voltage is good.

Would be nice if they shared the Power output vs THD too. :D
Yes at least when the preouts of the main channels are bypassing the power amp stage. As I found in the SR8012, without a preamp only mode, the power amp would clip driving above 1.2Vrms which could affect the overall distortion of the preouts. This won't happen in the 3600 scenario where the front amps are rerouted to surround channels.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Yes at least when the preouts of the main channels are bypassing the power amp stage. As I found in the SR8012, without a preamp only mode, the power amp would clip driving above 1.2Vrms which could affect the overall distortion of the preouts. This won't happen in the 3600 scenario where the front amps are rerouted to surround channels.
So this is of limited value on this measurement? Is the amp assignment feature of the 3600 good enough just by not having them as mains (don't believe the 3600 offers a dedicated pre-out amp assignment mode)? What changes with pre-out measurement otherwise?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So this is of limited value on this measurement? Is the amp assignment feature of the 3600 good enough just by not having them as mains (don't believe the 3600 offers a dedicated pre-out amp assignment mode)? What changes with pre-out measurement otherwise?
I am sure it is, I measured my x4400h at over 4 V rms without issues.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
So this is of limited value on this measurement? Is the amp assignment feature of the 3600 good enough just by not having them as mains (don't believe the 3600 offers a dedicated pre-out amp assignment mode)? What changes with pre-out measurement otherwise?
No. It will still do 4Vrms unclipped but without the amp disengaged, the receiver will likely go into protection on a sweep test above 1.5Vrms like the SR8012 did and 3rd order harmonics would,rise do to the unloaded power amp clipping. Read my SR8012 review for more info.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
without the amp disengaged, the receiver will likely go into protection on a sweep test above 1.5Vrms
How do you "disengage" the amp in the X3600 since it doesn't have a preamp mode?
 
Last edited:
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
What distortion specs?
I only measured the input and output voltages, if the output varies linearly with the input. Since I was able to reach over 4 V, I know for sure when used as prepro, and with 11 channels of external amps connected, the AVR will not tripped, like the SR8012 did on Gene's test bench. So it has nothing to do with THD specs, but to do with the how the protection system work.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So the X3600 will clip above 1.5Vrms since there is no “preamp mode” to “turn off the amp section”?
I don't think we can assume that at all. As I mentioned, my X4400H will not trip even at over 4 Vrms. In fact I measured the center channel as well, that is connected the the M2200 and it didn't shut down either at over 4 V.

It may be something unique to Marantz, or even specifically to the SR8012 for whatever reason. I always prefer Marantz on all else being equal and price dependent basis, but with these two weird behavior, apparently by design, I am beginning to prefer Denon.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
No. It will still do 4Vrms unclipped but without the amp disengaged, the receiver will likely go into protection on a sweep test above 1.5Vrms like the SR8012 did and 3rd order harmonics would,rise do to the unloaded power amp clipping. Read my SR8012 review for more info.
Gene, I don't understand why the SR8012 would shutdown above 1.5V when external amps are used, but I can tell you my AVR-X4400H does not do that at all. I can get >4 V without the AVR shutting down. I did not measured all channels but I did measure the center channel so I can reasonably assume even without assigned the FR and FL to the Atmos channels, the unit would not shut down. So either this is a new 2018 (X4400H is 2017) protection feature, or it is something new only for the SR8012, or it is a new Marantz thing?

I should mention that I didn't do any sweep, but a sine wave tone of between 500 to 1000 kHz, made no difference.
 
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