D&M just blurred the line again, should they go much further?

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Finally Denon has a model, AVR-X3600H, that is directly comparable to the Marantz SR6014 in their 2019 line up. Until now, the SR6012/13 and the AVR-X3500H share many things, but not really equivalents like the SR7013/AVR-X4500H are.

D_AVR_X3600H_slider_1.jpg


So now we have them in the following order. The bottom 3 have no equivalents between the D and the M lines, in terms of specs and notable features.

AVR-X8500H
SR8012
AVR-X6500H
SR7013/AVR-X4500H
SR6014/AVR-X3600H
SR5014
AVR-X2600H
AVR-X1600H

Still missing the replacements for the AVR-X6500H, SR7013, and AVR-X4500H. May be they are getting promoted to the more high end like two year cycle? If so, it will be a good thing.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Whatup, PENG?!!!

What's the nutshell on how they match up now; what changed to bring the Denon 3600 up to match the Marantz 6014?

Thank!
R

*Edited to correct model number
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Denon X8500 $4,000
Marantz SR8012 $3,000
Denon X6500 $2,200
Marantz SR7013 $2,200
Denon X4500 $1600
Marantz SR6013 $1500
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Whatup, PENG?!!!

What's the nutshell on how they match up now; what changed to bring the Denon 3600 up to match the Marantz 6400?

Thank!
R
I know you meant 6014:). As far as I know at the moment, from Denon websites, there aren't much, listed below the main ones.

- 9 channels of amplification vs the 3500's 7 channels
- 11 channel processing, vs the 3500's 7 channels
- HDCP 2.3 support (that's just the 2019 feature)
- IMAX enhanced (that's just the 2019 feature)

The changes between the 6012, 6013, and the soon to be released 6014 are incremental. I suppose they could practically put the same parts in the 6013 into the Denon's box, less the HDAM board and the 7.1 analog input board, the rest of the differences should be just the firmware. The preamp and power amp, DAC boards and the video sections are going to be virtually identical with perhaps minor cosmetic differences.

Images of the innards of even the 6013 is hard to find, but they should look just like the 6012 below:

marantz-sr6012-av-reciever-amplifiers-marantz-129307_large.jpg
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I know you meant 6014:). As far as I know at the moment, from Denon websites, there aren't much, listed below the main ones.

- 9 channels of amplification vs the 3500's 7 channels
- 11 channel processing, vs the 3500's 7 channels
- HDCP 2.3 support (that's just the 2019 feature)
- IMAX enhanced (that's just the 2019 feature)

The changes between the 6012, 6013, and the soon to be released 6014 are incremental. I suppose they could practically put the same parts in the 6013 into the Denon's box, less the HDAM board and the 7.1 analog input board, the rest of the differences should be just the firmware. The preamp and power amp, DAC boards and the video sections are going to be virtually identical with perhaps minor cosmetic differences.

Images of the innards of even the 6013 is hard to find, but they should look just like the 6012 below:
What's 386 among friends? :D

Wow, just changing from 7-ch Amp and Processing to 9 and 11 respectively is pretty cool.

I know SU is in an evolutionary state right now and looking, it seems, to redefine their product lines... but the parity is a little shocking right now. I recognize your pointing this out repeatedly on many threads when people are asking what to buy as an AVR, that Denon has been a better value vs Marantz. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out over the next year, assuming they refresh the remaining products next summer. Perhaps that will give us all clarity in their future path. (At least in terms of differentiating Denon and Marantz as brands.)

Thanks!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
What's 386 among friends? :D

Wow, just changing from 7-ch Amp and Processing to 9 and 11 respectively is pretty cool.

I know SU is in an evolutionary state right now and looking, it seems, to redefine their product lines... but the parity is a little shocking right now. I recognize your pointing this out repeatedly on many threads when people are asking what to buy as an AVR, that Denon has been a better value vs Marantz. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out over the next year, assuming they refresh the remaining products next summer. Perhaps that will give us all clarity in their future path. (At least in terms of differentiating Denon and Marantz as brands.)

Thanks!
I am sure the list price for the 3600 will be much higher accordingly, but will still be much less than the SR6014's. You might have noticed that I would typically also point out the fact that Marantz has HDAM and 7.1 analog outs that Demon's don't have. I would skip mentioning the 7.1 analog outs only if it looked obvious to me the op don't need them.

Having spent a lot of time in acquiring and collecting info on the www, I thought I should share the info, in case it may help others.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
that Denon has been a better value vs Marantz.
By the way, this got me thinking.. A "better value" is quite subjective, without providing supporting evidence, so I am going to keep that in mind. Thank you very much for alerting me (I know that's not your intention:D).
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
By the way, this got me thinking.. A "better value" is quite subjective, without providing supporting evidence, so I am going to keep that in mind. Thank you very much for alerting me (I know that's not your intention:D).
Since most of those people asking questions like that are pondering (I think) 1 of 2 scenarios: AMP stage power output or the "Musicality of Marantz"... I think your comment is valid and reasonable. Denon, in general, seems like a better value as you have explained it based on those factors. I've never felt that you were working "an agenda against Marantz." :p
Which only brings me back to the consideration of Brand Definition. If SU is smart and agile, they will define this for us by next summer with the refresh, presumably, of the remaining product line.

Thought experiment:
Aside from both having an epic Flagship AVR in their respective 8xxx series, what does it look like to have Marantz and Denon running alternating series instead of having AVRs in the same class at each level? Of course, that also allows for Marantz to keep exclusive AVPs in the AV880X and 770X line. Or do they get into a pattern of alternating refresh cycles for matching products?
Or... ????? ;)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Since most of those people asking questions like that are pondering (I think) 1 of 2 scenarios: AMP stage power output or the "Musicality of Marantz"... I think your comment is valid and reasonable. Denon, in general, seems like a better value as you have explained it based on those factors. I've never felt that you were working "an agenda against Marantz." :p
Which only brings me back to the consideration of Brand Definition. If SU is smart and agile, they will define this for us by next summer with the refresh, presumably, of the remaining product line.

Thought experiment:
Aside from both having an epic Flagship AVR in their respective 8xxx series, what does it look like to have Marantz and Denon running alternating series instead of having AVRs in the same class at each level? Of course, that also allows for Marantz to keep exclusive AVPs in the AV880X and 770X line. Or do they get into a pattern of alternating refresh cycles for matching products?
Or... ????? ;)
Thanks again for being so nice.:)

You brought up some interesting points that may make more sense to us the consumers. In addition to implementing some real meaningful and useful differences so people can choose wisely based on their needs and preference, they should also try and minimize the chance of inadvertently misleading potential users to believe in differences related to sound quality that are simply not there, non existent, not audible even if truly there.

They can start by:

- Focusing on each promoting their own brand on merits of build quality (e.g. Al vs plastic use),style, feature set, amp power/low impedance drive capability, and connectivity etc., instead of sound quality.

- Assure people that their products, regardless of D, or M's are designed for the best possible sound quality in terms of accuracy and transparency. Don't lead people to believe one is better for HT and the other for music. That makes no sense and is not even logical.

That way, they can achieve complete synergy, without borderline on not telling consumers the truth about whatever they have already synergized (Again, that's basically complete, electronically speaking, except the HDAM and 7.1 analog inputs) while trying to lead people to believe they are so different in terms of sound signature.

They have been 100% owned by the same SU for a few years now, so may be honesty can in fact be adopted as the best policy. Synergy is good as it leads to better efficiency and cost effectiveness. There is no need to hide the facts resulted from their successful effort in synergy in recent years, they should be proud of having been so successful. The consumers deserve to have the option to make their choices based on their needs, and preference in the aesthetics of the products, without having to wonder in doing so they may have to forego sound quality. The HDAM thing makes no logical sense. If they are really needed to help improve SQ, then why are the equivalent Denon spec'ed the same, measured the same and sometimes even slightly better? And are they saying the Denon AVRs and integrated amps will have inferior SQ compared to even the Marantz SR5000 series that are further down in the rank but have HDAM onboard? So I am not ruling them out, but either get rid of them and use the savings on improving on areas that counts, or standardize them across the two platforms.

Telling us they intentionally tuned their own to sound different is even worse, that's not even debatable right? Who wants to buy an AVR that is not designed to sound transparent, but to sound in ways the designers want you to hear? Wouldn't it be better if we don't have to worry about trading away sound signature, but instead we can choose between stronger power supply/low impedance drive capability, and features such as more connectivity, apps, more zones etc.? That's just an arbitrary example.

Your thoughts? May be we should have some sort of polls to sort things out.....it might help, if D &/Or M are taking notice. Or I am just dreaming?
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Forget just adding Marantz faceplates on Denons, Sound United can go full Monty and add a 5th foot :)
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Thanks again for being so nice.:)
Ha! You put up with me asking silly questions for months! Thank you for being so nice!
I'm off to work, but I'll get back to this!
Cheers!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Come to think of it, D&M should take a look of the Onkyo/Integra model too, especially the are now under the same roof.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Come to think of it, D&M should take a look of the Onkyo/Integra model too, especially the are now under the same roof.
Almost under... ;) when is the shareholder meeting?
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Your thoughts? May be we should have some sort of polls to sort things out.....it might help, if D &/Or M are taking notice. Or I am just dreaming?
Considering my 1 year anniversary with Marantz is this month... but if you count the time I've spent without it while it was on warranty service field trips... TWICE... maybe my anniversary isn't until September. ???:confused:???
*Shrugs
I don't even know. :)
You are light years ahead of me in understanding some of this.
My thought, based on what we've seen recently with the Sound United Dealers Conference... or whatever that was... is that they have a plan in place... what it is we won't know for a year or two still. Nothing we say now will matter. :p
My hope is simplification of Brand Identity. Marantz and Denon can coexist as mid-upper echelon products. But where does that leave Onkyo and Pioneer if they do officially get brought into the fold? Does one become the low to mid? Do they cannibalize the other and sell off Pioneer, say? Maybe some 5 or 9 people know that answer right now. What about Classe? Those were some lovely looking pieces they put up. What about Def Tech? Truly premium grade Speakers? (I don't buy that.) Or Polk? Boston Acoustics?
Regardless, they seem to be on the way to identifying their brands and starting to hone their images and stake out territories for each.

On another point, the Onkyo shareholder meeting to approve the sale was supposed to be "on or around" June 26th... interesting I can find no news about this since then.

Time to grab a 6-pack, pop some popcorn, sit back and armchair-quarterback this whole transition! :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Considering my 1 year anniversary with Marantz is this month... but if you count the time I've spent without it while it was on warranty service field trips... TWICE... maybe my anniversary isn't until September. ???:confused:???
*Shrugs
I don't even know. :)
You are light years ahead of me in understanding some of this.
My thought, based on what we've seen recently with the Sound United Dealers Conference... or whatever that was... is that they have a plan in place... what it is we won't know for a year or two still. Nothing we say now will matter. :p
My hope is simplification of Brand Identity. Marantz and Denon can coexist as mid-upper echelon products. But where does that leave Onkyo and Pioneer if they do officially get brought into the fold? Does one become the low to mid? Do they cannibalize the other and sell off Pioneer, say? Maybe some 5 or 9 people know that answer right now. What about Classe? Those were some lovely looking pieces they put up. What about Def Tech? Truly premium grade Speakers? (I don't buy that.) Or Polk? Boston Acoustics?
Regardless, they seem to be on the way to identifying their brands and starting to hone their images and stake out territories for each.

On another point, the Onkyo shareholder meeting to approve the sale was supposed to be "on or around" June 26th... interesting I can find no news about this since then.

Time to grab a 6-pack, pop some popcorn, sit back and armchair-quarterback this whole transition! :D
If I imagine becoming the head of their marketing department, say something like V.P. marketing SU international. I would consider the following scenario:

Pioneer:
- Concentrate on Class D, continue R&D for improvements in low impedance capability and cost.

Onkyo:
Merge their integrated amp/power amp/AVR team with D&M, focus on AVP only based on Integra's.

Rational:
- Integra has been making AVP for the longest time, their team(s) likely have more experience than Marantz so let them take the lead.
- Onkyo AVRs, fair or not, seem to have less favorable reliability reputation than Denon and Marantz.
- Pioneer has been making class D based AVRs for the longest time.

D&M:
- continue the same path, but merge the AVP team with Integra's
- Take the lead in integrating everyone's media players and other devices into one.
- Take the lead in integrating everyone's preamp/integrated amp/power amp divisions.
- The integrated amp division can still promote class D amps under Marantz (merge/synergize with Pioneer's) and class AB amps under Denon (merge with Marantz, take the lead, or let Marantz lead, depending on who has better infrastructure).

Other than that, as alluded to before, synergize further to the point when a potential shopper ask which one to go with, the answer based on facts, not myth/hearsay from the past will be:

- No difference in audio specs between the corresponding models, so you can make your choice base on look, style, connectivity, and features, and most importantly, output power requirement.

Differentiate their brands on the sound signature myth (ref: the AH posted Y-tube video) makes no sense, borderline on being dishonest..I think besides you and I, our friends like @mtrycrafts , @lovinthehd , @AcuDefTechGuy..etc., or even @TLS Guy would agree with me on this point.

One good thing about leaving things alone is, so SU can sell off any one of the brands for a profit, but how likely would that be? And if it isn't that, and yet do nothing, then what is the point of acquiring all these good old brands?

Imo it is high time they integrate/synergize the brands to optimize cost and take the lead in simplifying and demystifying to help potential buyers make their informed decision, without resorting to feeding/misleading them with hypes and myths, but educate them with facts and figures.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
without resorting to feeding/misleading them with hypes and myths, but educate them with facts and figures.
Well, their only goal is to make money.

Look at Bose. :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If they hire me to implement some changes, they will make more money. Or hire someone from Bose.
Somehow I think people like us are bad businessmen. :D

We would tell the truth and make products that last 20 years. :eek:

But, yeah, it would be good if you worked for D/M and straighten them up. First thing is to fire those Panurgy people. :D
 
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