D&M just blurred the line again, should they go much further?

[PENG]

I'm wondering if they "boosted" the Protection Circuits on the Marantz only, or for most new Denon's as well.

And is this to reduce power/heat/energy output/waste?

In post#31, Gene responded to your question on this already. He said "Yes at least when the preouts of the main channels are bypassing the power amp stage. "

Below is what I assume he meant:

"at least when...................", tells me he's making an assumption that the Denon would/might behave like the SR8012 in that sense. That's why I alerted him in my post#41 that my 2017 Denon does not behave the same way.

".......bypassing the power amp stage..." meant when they the FR/FL are re-assigned, and that is possible when you use 11 channel processing, such as 7.1.4, in that config the unit will re-assign the FR/FL to the height/Atmos channels, effectively decoupling them to the FL/FR pre outs, sort a pseudo preamp mode. If I am misunderstood Gene on this, I trust he would correct me.

So my point is, it could be a new thing post 2017, or a Marantz only thing, or a SR8012 thing. Hopefully @gene can take advantage of his direct line to D&M and get this confirmed.

If it is a new 2018 feature, then I hope D&M would fix it with a FW update, not asking for a preamp mode, but at least modify the code so that if no current out flow is detected in the speaker terminals, the pre out voltages are allowed to go up to the maximum 4.25 V as shown in the schematics.

 

[highfigh]

If I imagine becoming the head of their marketing department, say something like V.P. marketing SU international. I would consider the following scenario:

Pioneer:
- Concentrate on Class D, continue R&D for improvements in low impedance capability and cost.

Onkyo:
Merge their integrated amp/power amp/AVR team with D&M, focus on AVP only based on Integra's.

Rational:
- Integra has been making AVP for the longest time, their team(s) likely have more experience than Marantz so let them take the lead.
- Onkyo AVRs, fair or not, seem to have less favorable reliability reputation than Denon and Marantz.
- Pioneer has been making class D based AVRs for the longest time.

D&M:
- continue the same path, but merge the AVP team with Integra's
- Take the lead in integrating everyone's media players and other devices into one.
- Take the lead in integrating everyone's preamp/integrated amp/power amp divisions.
- The integrated amp division can still promote class D amps under Marantz (merge/synergize with Pioneer's) and class AB amps under Denon (merge with Marantz, take the lead, or let Marantz lead, depending on who has better infrastructure).

Other than that, as alluded to before, synergize further to the point when a potential shopper ask which one to go with, the answer based on facts, not myth/hearsay from the past will be:

- No difference in audio specs between the corresponding models, so you can make your choice base on look, style, connectivity, and features, and most importantly, output power requirement.

Differentiate their brands on the sound signature myth (ref: the AH posted Y-tube video) makes no sense, borderline on being dishonest..I think besides you and I, our friends like @mtrycrafts , @lovinthehd , @AcuDefTechGuy..etc., or even @TLS Guy would agree with me on this point.

One good thing about leaving things alone is, so SU can sell off any one of the brands for a profit, but how likely would that be? And if it isn't that, and yet do nothing, then what is the point of acquiring all these good old brands?

Imo it is high time they integrate/synergize the brands to optimize cost and take the lead in simplifying and demystifying to help potential buyers make their informed decision, without resorting to feeding/misleading them with hypes and myths, but educate them with facts and figures.

I wouldn't merge D&M with Integra- that one stopped being the CI go-to quite a while ago. SU should fix what needs fixing in each brand, keep the ones that will preform best for them and sell the others while their plans are showing improvement- that way, the brands will still be affordable and will provide growth for the new owners.

The best thing for all would be to get Marketing to state specs accurately, without using the Beast Buy method of adding all channels together and trying to wow the uneducated with power rating of more than 1000 Watts. In addition, the industry needs to force retailers like Beast Buy to change their plan and train their freaking clerks. Most are useless, some are a bit enthusiastic (I suspect they're new hires).

 

[highfigh]

Somehow I think people like us are bad businessmen.

We would tell the truth and make products that last 20 years.

But, yeah, it would be good if you worked for D/M and straighten them up. First thing is to fire those Panurgy people.

If they make products that last 20 years, they won't make money.

Why fire Panurgy?

 

[Swerd]

The best thing for all would be to get Marketing to state specs accurately, without using the Beast Buy method of adding all channels together and trying to wow the uneducated with power rating of more than 1000 Watts. In addition, the industry needs to force retailers like Beast Buy to change their plan and train their freaking clerks. Most are useless, some are a bit enthusiastic (I suspect they're new hires).

Better yet, buy your audio gear from a reputable online dealer, and let Beast Buy learn it's lesson the hard way – from the school of hard knocks. BB deserves to go down the same path that Circuit City went years ago.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Why fire Panurgy?

I've had bad experiences with Panurgy.

1. lower-end Denon AVR could not be fixed under warranty - smoke came out of AVR

2. Denon AVP-A1HDCI - could not be fixed, even under Best Buy Store Warranty and was sent to Panurgy twice since first time was not fixed, even though they claimed it was fixed. They claimed it was fixed twice in the end. But AVP-A1 still broken.

3. Refurbished Denon's that all arrived DOA for me (I was told they came from Panurgy)

 

[highfigh]

Better yet, buy your audio gear from a reputable online dealer, and let Beast Buy learn it's lesson the hard way – from the school of hard knocks. BB deserves to go down the same path that Circuit City went years ago.

I went to BB to find a TV for a client and the guy who approached started by asking if I wanted to buy the TV in front of me which, I have to admit, didn't sit well with me because I had made no indication that I wanted it.

Having been there when channels were being changed, I know it's possible and not difficult to do- when I asked him to change the channel, he told me he couldn't, but when I asked how it's possible for some TVs to show one thing and others to show something else when all of them were using coax, he couldn't (or didn't want to) tell me and actually asked why I would want to see the same thing on multiple TVs.

I finally told him I was only looking and he left. A few minutes later, someone else came over and asked if I had any questions and when I asked him to change the channel, he was eager to and he went to grab a remote.

I like BB's liberal return policy but I hate the lack of knowledge in some of the clerks- I refuse to call them 'sales people'.

 

[highfigh]

I've had bad experiences with Panurgy.

1. lower-end Denon AVR could not be fixed under warranty - smoke came out of AVR

2. Denon AVP-A1HDCI - could not be fixed, even under Best Buy Store Warranty and was sent to Panurgy twice since first time was not fixed, even though they claimed it was fixed. They claimed it was fixed twice in the end. But AVP-A1 still broken.

3. Refurbished Denon's that all arrived DOA for me (I was told they came from Panurgy)

OK, I get it- maybe they could have sent it to Electronics Express in Chicago- I have sent some pieces to them and they're all still out there. I think the last one went in around 2013. I would call and pick their brain (at the place in Chicago) to find out if they have seen the problem and if they can get the documentation from Panurgy, they might be able to get it working.

 

[panteragstk]

I went to BB to find a TV for a client and the guy who approached started by asking if I wanted to buy the TV in front of me which, I have to admit, didn't sit well with me because I had made no indication that I wanted it.

Having been there when channels were being changed, I know it's possible and not difficult to do- when I asked him to change the channel, he told me he couldn't, but when I asked how it's possible for some TVs to show one thing and others to show something else when all of them were using coax, he couldn't (or didn't want to) tell me and actually asked why I would want to see the same thing on multiple TVs.

I finally told him I was only looking and he left. A few minutes later, someone else came over and asked if I had any questions and when I asked him to change the channel, he was eager to and he went to grab a remote.

I like BB's liberal return policy but I hate the lack of knowledge in some of the clerks- I refuse to call them 'sales people'.

Yeah, that's a per store thing. Dude that initially came up to you probably wasn't even in that dept.

The BB near me is good, but it's one of the few I can say that about. Most are just terrible.

My brother-in-law actually works in the A/V dept and he knows his stuff pretty well, but is sold on all the Dolby Vision stuff to the point he will only stream stuff that includes Dolby Vision even though the quality of the stream can't be as good as an actual BD.

I actually worked for Circuit City when they died. My store was pretty great, but again, those places are only as good as their management. Most are just told to sell as much as possible and add on accessories and installs to make as much margin as possible.

Magnolia stores are different. They actually do large high end installs. My brother was an installer for them for a while and he did some pretty huge money installs during that time.

Too bad a lot of the mom and pop shops are gone. I would much rather spend my money with them, but can always get better deals online.

 

[lovinthehd]

Distortion vs output level is shown in the graph of this preview article.

I thought he had separate measure?

 

[gene]

How do you "disengage" the amp in the X3600 since it doesn't have a preamp mode?

Rerouting the main channels to surrounds disengages the connection to the amp for the main channels.

 

[gene]

I don't think we can assume that at all. As I mentioned, my X4400H will not trip even at over 4 Vrms. In fact I measured the center channel as well, that is connected the the M2200 and it didn't shut down either at over 4 V.

It may be something unique to Marantz, or even specifically to the SR8012 for whatever reason. I always prefer Marantz on all else being equal and price dependent basis, but with these two weird behavior, apparently by design, I am beginning to prefer Denon.

It won't shut down the receiver with discrete tone tests but if you sweep, it likely will. Both Denon and Marantz receivers should exhibit similar behavior on models that don't have a dedicated preamp mode to bypass the power amp connections.

 

[gene]

Gene, I don't understand why the SR8012 would shutdown above 1.5V when external amps are used, but I can tell you my AVR-X4400H does not do that at all. I can get >4 V without the AVR shutting down. I did not measured all channels but I did measure the center channel so I can reasonably assume even without assigned the FR and FL to the Atmos channels, the unit would not shut down. So either this is a new 2018 (X4400H is 2017) protection feature, or it is something new only for the SR8012, or it is a new Marantz thing?

I should mention that I didn't do any sweep, but a sine wave tone of between 500 to 1000 kHz, made no difference.

Run a full bandwidth sweep and it will shut down your Denon. The power amp goes into clipping at 1.5Vrms even unloaded. This is an unlikely reworld scenario but on the bench it's very real.

I'm asking Sound United to either have a preamp mode on ALL models with preouts or at least lower the voltage gain of the power amp section so it takes 2vrms to reach full power. This would make the preouts more compatible with most separate power amps.

 

[ryanosaur]

I'm asking Sound United to either have a preamp mode on ALL models with preouts...

THIS!!!
A preamp mode and assignable channels is a big part of what I think, from a user experience perspective, would be great! If I could turn off the amps I don’t need due to externals, and activate easily the “presence/height” channel amps, that would be huge!!!
On my Marantz SR6012 (and presumably everything in their recent line), they made a mess of their speaker selection menu with limited, non-intuitive options. This is one of my bigger complaints with a product I am otherwise happy with.

Talk some sense into them, Gene!!!

 

[PENG]

THIS!!!
A preamp mode and assignable channels is a big part of what I think, from a user experience perspective, would be great! If I could turn off the amps I don’t need due to externals, and activate easily the “presence/height” channel amps, that would be huge!!!
On my Marantz SR6012 (and presumably everything in their recent line), they made a mess of their speaker selection menu with limited, non-intuitive options. This is one of my bigger complaints with a product I am otherwise happy with.

Talk some sense into them, Gene!!!

I agree with you they made a mess in that, but in the owner's manual only. The on screen instructions were quite clear though.

I am still not sure if Gene is right, that the Denon(s) would shut down if a sweep is done as opposed to my measurements using tones, because that didn't happen when he tested the X3300W. I see no reason why Denon would make such a change to the later models that basically have the same preamp and power amp sections. It seems to me he is just making a reasonable assumption that since the SR8012 did it, so will the newer Denon(s). Now, assuming Gene got that right, then I am still okay because I run 7.1.4, but I wonder if you can do the same, that is, tell you SR6012 you are running 7.1.4 even though you are not. No harm trying right?

 

[PENG]

Run a full bandwidth sweep and it will shut down your Denon. The power amp goes into clipping at 1.5Vrms even unloaded. This is an unlikely reworld scenario but on the bench it's very real.

I'm asking Sound United to either have a preamp mode on ALL models with preouts or at least lower the voltage gain of the power amp section so it takes 2vrms to reach full power. This would make the preouts more compatible with most separate power amps.

Gene, with due respect, isn't that just your assumption albeit a very reasonable one, as you have not tested any Denon since the X3300W? When you measured the X3300W, iirc you were able to measure 4.5 Vrms, or was that just a single tone you used then? I thought you always do sweeps. I know the comparable Denon and Marantz models have virtually identical electronics except the HDAM, and MC analog inputs, but their FW could be different in terms of the protective schemes so the fact that the 8012 behaves in one way, it does not guarantee the X4500H and up behaves the same?

In any case, thank you very much for asking SU to make a preamp mode available on all models with MC pre outs. If not a full preamp mode, something like what they have on the X8500H is much better than nothing.

 

[gene]

THIS!!!
A preamp mode and assignable channels is a big part of what I think, from a user experience perspective, would be great! If I could turn off the amps I don’t need due to externals, and activate easily the “presence/height” channel amps, that would be huge!!!
On my Marantz SR6012 (and presumably everything in their recent line), they made a mess of their speaker selection menu with limited, non-intuitive options. This is one of my bigger complaints with a product I am otherwise happy with.

Talk some sense into them, Gene!!!

You won't be able to turn off the amps but at least be able to break their connections to the preamp so they don't get overdriven while using the receiver as a preamp only.

 

[gene]

Gene, with due respect, isn't that just your assumption albeit a very reasonable one, as you have not tested any Denon since the X3300W? When you measured the X3300W, iirc you were able to measure 4.5 Vrms, or was that just a single tone you used then? I thought you always do sweeps. I know the comparable Denon and Marantz models have virtually identical electronics except the HDAM, and MC analog inputs, but their FW could be different in terms of the protective schemes so the fact that the 8012 behaves in one way, it does not guarantee the X4500H and up behaves the same?

In any case, thank you very much for asking SU to make a preamp mode available on all models with MC pre outs. If not a full preamp mode, something like what they have on the X8500H is much better than nothing.

I dont think I swept fullrange past 1Vrms preouts on the 3300w. I did 1khz psweep vs distortion though which the SR8012 was able to do too.

looking back, You can see it at 2vrms on the 3300w where odd harmonics are dominating the FFT of the preouts. I missed this not realizing the amp section was clipping and causing it.

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1/measurements

This is definitely a problem for any receiver whose amp section reaches full power at low voltage like I found in the SR8012. I'm 99% confident all the latest Denon products behave similarly.

 

[PENG]

I dont think I swept fullrange past 1Vrms preouts on the 3300w. I did 1khz psweep vs distortion though which the SR8012 was able to do too.

looking back, You can see it at 2vrms on the 3300w where odd harmonics are dominating the FFT of the preouts. I missed this not realizing the amp section was clipping and causing it.

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1/measurements

This is definitely a problem for any receiver whose amp section reaches full power at low voltage like I found in the SR8012. I'm 99% confident all the latest Denon products behave similarly.

Thank you Gene, I just a look of the schematics of the X4400H, try to find anything that has to do with sensing the pre out voltage. So far, the only thing I could find is current detection, and that appears to detect the audio signal current outflow to the speaker, but I need spend more time to understand the circuitry. The "Current detection part" as soon on the schematics definitely are the same for the SR6012/SR7012 and AVR-X4400H so I guess your 99% may actually be 99.9%.., that is, however it works, would apply to both Denon and Marantz AVRs. For real world use, it hopefully wouldn't be an issue because the protection scheme does not appear to work on instantaneous basis. Normally, it should follow some sort of inverse current/time characteristics, or at least a fixed (factory adjustable) fixed time delay basis. On the other hand if the unit shut down on you within just one sweep, that's not too good..

A good pre-amp mode would mean a bunch of relays among other things, and that will likely be more costly to implement than doing it with software, i.e. implemented via a FW update. If hardware is involved, it will only benefit the future models.

 

[gene]

Thank you Gene, I just a look of the schematics of the X4400H, try to find anything that has to do with sensing the pre out voltage. So far, the only thing I could find is current detection, and that appears to detect the audio signal current outflow to the speaker, but I need spend more time to understand the circuitry. The "Current detection part" as soon on the schematics definitely are the same for the SR6012/SR7012 and AVR-X4400H so I guess your 99% may actually be 99.9%.., that is, however it works, would apply to both Denon and Marantz AVRs. For real world use, it hopefully wouldn't be an issue because the protection scheme does not appear to work on instantaneous basis. Normally, it should follow some sort of inverse current/time characteristics, or at least a fixed (factory adjustable) fixed time delay basis. On the other hand if the unit shut down on you within just one sweep, that's not too good..

A good pre-amp mode would means a bunch of relays among other things, and that will likely be more costly to implement than doing it with software, i.e. implemented via a FW update. If hardware is involved, it will only benefit the future models.

Yea I also asked Sound United if it were possible to reduce the voltage gain of their amp stages going forward so they wouldn't clip until the preamp drive level is 2Vrms instead of 1.2Vrms. Most amplifiers will hit full power at 2Vrms. This would clean up the FFT on the preouts by not clipping the power amps. The good news is I'm on contact with their head of engineering and he's taking my findings seriously. I suspect the SR8015 will either have a preamp mode or some adjustment to allow higher preout drive without clipping the power amps. We shall see.

 

[ryanosaur]

You won't be able to turn off the amps but at least be able to break their connections to the preamp so they don't get overdriven while using the receiver as a preamp only.

Yup... just a hope! Usability is a focus of mine after years in production as a Chef. It transfers to real life too!

Thanks, Gene!!!