
AcuDefTechGuy
Audioholic Jedi
A lot of people love Emotiva amps.What your Opinion, on Emotiva amps drasstic enough for you to become a Dealer? lol
But I'm not interested.
Last edited:
A lot of people love Emotiva amps.What your Opinion, on Emotiva amps drasstic enough for you to become a Dealer? lol
Curious, how did you do the direct AB test?So I will chime in as I have a lot of experience when class D high power amps and have owned many of the ones discussed here.
The modern Crown stuff is an absurd deal for the power. The Hypex stuff is a nice step up from that for not a ton more cash (if you buy the simpler stuff like VTV). The Hypex was absurdly detailed and has a tiny footprint. the passive cooling is nice too.
I now run bridged vintage NAD 2400THX amps which I found provide much more bass kick in my setup. I use NHT Classic Four speakers which have 10’ subwoofers attached, so the difference was quite substantial in my testing. Probably made much more obvious than with non 4-way speakers.
I am well aware of all the people rushing to tell me that all amps sound identical if well engineered and running at the correct tolerances, but I can only provide my experience in doing direct AB testing with an identical front end and speakers. I actually wrote something online with that exact phrase last year, and I’m going to add an update to it that I’ve changed my mind.
I should add I used the Crown XTi2000 as well as the Hypex MC252MP for my above statements.
I removed the Hypex, and hooked up the NADs. Then listened to the same songs. All EQ off, same source.Curious, how did you do the direct AB test?
So sighted and not level matched?I removed the Hypex, and hooked up the NADs. Then listened to the same songs. All EQ off, same source.
Level matched by ear using the attenuators on the NADs.So sighted and not level matched?
Hard to know as that's just not much of a comparison to go on. Any connection to the bass distortion you mention in your thread?Level matched by ear using the attenuators on the NADs.
I’m not publishing in a journal or anything. I did about the best A/B test a civilian can do without investing a ton of time and found that the NADs had a noticeable increase in bass response. Could be coloring or something as they’re 30+ years old, but I don’t notice a different high end response.
In the 1970's, I had a IC150 driving a Harman Citation 12 for several years. This Citation was later replaced by the Sony TA-3200F which had a better headroom and a lower output impedance which gave the Altec A7 components more punch and better transients.Also how cool is this, in 99' the IC150A was exhibiting some noise due to pot wear. I called Crown up and even though they initially said they didn't service that vintage one of their guys that had went home, dug up some still sealed replacement pots, serviced the unit, and charged me a whopping $65 bucks and that included shipping it back. The IC150A and DC300A are still in daily service by another friend of mine.
Hi guys, joined just to respond here.. I think it's a wonderful idea to do a side by side comparison, people from both sides of the debate present to discuss. But might I suggest one more factor? How about a seasoned professional audio engineer and his equipment on tap to scientifically measure what happens. Trust me, I love good sound, spent not small fortunes on fest to make it, and done go hear it as well. I've been in studios that are world renowned as a musician and technician, I'm an old dog that knows a little bit. I'm my experience the audiophile crowd is plain full of something, they do concerned with equipment they can't hear the music. And just crazy too. They say they want absolute clarity and accurate playback while insisting on using tube amps. Well friends, as a guitar player I can assure you that every tube ever made will color the sound somehow, that's facts. And if they get a speaker that is accurate they flip out. If you handed them a set of studio monitors theyd lock up and die right there. If you're going to be all pinky in the air about gear, at least learn enough about it that you don't sound like an idiot spewing off about how your amp with 20 tubes and 4 transformers is 100% accurate to the actual in studio sound. I think a decent engineer on site would be a HUGE step toward a reality check. Mtwo cents up front...you want transparent and accurate playback? Get a class D amp. Bet a dollar the instruments and ears if done double blind say the same thing.We've tried, man. Maybe one of these days. I believe all of us are in support of such a review.
I have found the PS series (PS200 and PS400) to be the closest to audiophile quality. They actually play in class 'A' for the first 10 watts or so, which is the most undistorted mode of play. Then they transition smoothly into 'A/B' mode at medium volumes and then mode 'B' at high volume. I have found them to be very musical and comparable to amps costing 10x the money.You must be thinking of the Macro Reference (reviewed here: Crown Macro Reference power amplifier | Stereophile.com), which is definitely Class AB. The subjective part of the review reads like complete made-up rubbish. There's a haze over the music, with super-low distortion and unweighted noise down 88db at 2.83v? Lipnick must have been taking drugs. The measurements section certainly depicts awesome performance, though the Crown obviously is not natively balanced, so it actually performs better with single-ended inputs. Crown never made a Class A amp.
Don't remember who said it but to paraphrase, "It is amazing how an audiophiles' hearing changes when his eyes are covered"I understood the feeling, been there, done that too. It all depends how susceptible you are to Placebo. In a simple blind test if you can honestly tell a $5,000 to $7,000 200-300 WPC integrated amp sounding better than that Crown, then go for the high end amp. Otherwise save the money and spend it on things that really count. That is on high quality (recording, mastering etc.) music that are mostly found in formats including CD but mostly in SACD, digital files 24bit/88.2 kHz and up, DSD, and a high quality external DAC. Then you can forget about the cheap price of the Crown, that contrasts the high price of your speaker; and focus of enjoying music instead.
If you are prone to the Placebo effect, and cannot resist wanting to price match those speakers, then stop thinking and just pull the trigger on a $5 to $7K separates or integrated amp, and totally ignore what everyone else said about how all reputable amps with comparable specs sound the same if working within their limits.
Input sensitivity of most amps is 1.4 volts and rarely higher than 1.7. Most preamps, even small pre/dac/headphone have outputs of 2 volts. Therefore it is rare that a preamp is limiting the amps output.FYI, according to the data sheet, the NAC C372's input sensitivity (for rated output) is 350 mV, based on 9 dB of gain that means the internal preamp output would be about 1V, to yield rated output of 150W.
I have owned and used Crown amps in pro audio applications and they are competent and durable. I have never used one in a home application. They did make one targeted at home audio some time ago. I don't know that they still do. They are made not far from me.I appreciate any feedback and thoughts. I see the likes of Emotiva, Crown, Sherborne, to name but a few that give great bang for the buck in terms of amplification.
- Have you auditioned Crown amps in a true audiophile setup? If so, what amps did you compare the Crown against?
- I've looked at the Crown models and they don't seem to have standard binding posts for speaker wiring. If one were to look at Crown amps, what model or series would be appropriate in an audiophile setup?
- Were there any sonic differences (good, bad or ugly) with the Class I topology if you heard those models?
- Why does Crown have a stellar reputation in pro circles and get dissed in audiophile circles? Is it ignorance, is it the fact that some have fans? Theories?
One exception with pro amps is the QSC Digital Cinema Amp series. The DCA 1222s which I'm using for the three front channels in my theater system, don't perform as well as the new Class D Buckeye amps. They however have lower published THD at rated output than that of the Marantz MM7025. Marantz doesn't quote IM levels. The DCA 1222s have lower IM than that on the Rotel RB-1552 MkII. Their MRSP is also less than that of the other brands.Crown amps and other pro amps won’t measure as well as audiophile amps in terms of THD+N/SINAD. But the pro amps will have a lot of power. And they will sound good enough. They may make hissing noise through the tweeters, but you can’t hear it from the listening position.
The biggest drawback to pro amps is that they look ugly to most audiophiles..
SPECIFICATIONS | DCA 1222 | DCA 1622 | DCA 2422 | DCA 3022 | DCA 3422 |
8Ω, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.03% THD | 200 W | 300 W | 425 W | 550 W | 700 W |
4Ω, 20 Hz–20 kHz 0.05% THD | 325 W | 500 W | 700 W | 900 W | 1100 W |
EIA: 1 kHz, 1% THD @ 8Ω 4Ω 2Ω | 215 W 375 W 600 W | 350 W 600 W 800 W | 475 W 825 W 1200 W | 625 W 1050 W 1500 W | 800 W 1250 W 1700 W |
BRIDGED MONO MODE | |||||
16Ω, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.1% THD | 400 W | 600 W | 850 W | 1100 W | 1400 W |
8Ω, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.1% THD | 700 W | 1100 W | 1500 W | 2000 W | 2200 W |
4Ω, 1 kHz, 1% THD | 1200 W | 1600 W | 2400 W | 3000 W | 3400 W |
Signal to Noise 20 Hz–20 kHz, unweighted | > 106 dB | > 107 dB | > 108 dB | > 107 dB | > 107 dB |
Input Sensitivity full rated power @ 8 ohms | 1.0 V rms +2.2 dBu | 1.2 V rms +3.9 dBu | 1.5 V rms +5.5 dBu | 1.7 V rms +6.8 dBu | 1.9 V rms +7.8 dBu |
Input Sensitivity full rated power @ 4 ohms | 0.9 V rms +1.3 dBu | 1.1 V rms +3.2 dBu | 1.3 V rms +4.6 dBu | 1.5 V rms +5.7 dBu | 1.7 V rms +6.8 dBu |
Output Circuitry Class Type | AB | AB | 2-Step H | 2-Step H | 2-Step H |
Distortion (SMPTE-IM) | < 0.01% | < 0.01% | < 0.02% | < 0.02% | < 0.02% |
Power Output | 140W (20Hz-20kHz, 0.08%) |
Well, my only 2 points are 1) they don’t have a MEASURED THD+N of 0.001% or SINAD of 95dB as measured by ASR and Audioholics and 2) they look ugly to most people.One exception with pro amps is the QSC Digital Cinema Amp series - The DCA 1222…
They may look ugly to some people but their published unweighted SNR is >106dB which is excellent. They obviously sound as good except for the ones who have golden ears. Another positive point for purchasing one is that it's so well designed that you can't blow it.Well, my only 2 points are 1) they don’t have a MEASURED THD+N of < 0.001% or SINAD of 100dB as measured by ASR and Audioholics and 2) they look ugly to most people.
They can still sound as good. No issue there.
There is an extensive thread on Audiokarma forums with regards to the Crown Drivecore XLS... at least one of these was purchased, and the travelled through the US based audiophile community with people trying it out on their various setups, and commenting on the results.For me, what is jumping out at me is that I don't see guys with experience in using Crown amps in an audiophile setup. That doesn't mean that the Crown stuff is no good. I think it means that there's been a bias against using pro gear in audiophile setups. I'm getting more and more curious if there's anyone who has really done a solid review of this? Any way to make that request up the food chain so that we can see an audioholics amp test using Crown pro gear vs. audiophile amps?