Crown amplifiers vs. other amps in the audiophile world

[dlaloum]

Input sensitivity of most amps is 1.4 volts and rarely higher than 1.7. Most preamps, even small pre/dac/headphone have outputs of 2 volts. Therefore it is rare that a preamp is limiting the amps output.

Many of the current generation Class D amps - Hypex, Purifi, etc... are low gain, and unless fitted with an amplifying buffer board, require higher than "standard" V input.

They have very good SINAD specs - but I think part of that is because of their low gain, once you add the required gain stages the noise rises accordingly, and their spectacular SINAD specs, no longer look so spectacular (still good though)

 

[dlaloum]

I have owned and used Crown amps in pro audio applications and they are competent and durable. I have never used one in a home application. They did make one targeted at home audio some time ago. I don't know that they still do. They are made not far from me.

Crown amps are made for the commercial and pro audio marketplace so they will have the appropriate connectors for those applications. There are adapters available that allow you to connect your speakers as you prefer.

The class of amplification isn't an issue for home audio use. Class I is simply more efficient in energy use than, say a class AB amp. In home audio where you are using a handful of watts, the efficiency of the amp isn't much of an issue for that reason. In pro audio where one might use hundreds of watts it is more important.

As for question #4, I would say audiophile circles are the last place you should look for competent audio equipment advice. All modern solid state amplifiers amplify without any audible effect on the sound they amplify so ignore any comments about things like this amp sounds better than that one. Choose whatever lights your fire. It is more important that you like it rather than what model it is. They all perform accurately.

The Crown Drivecore setup was used in the Lexicon multichannel amp (basically a rebadged Crown!) - which was sold in the audiophile/videophile marketplace.
JBL also have a number of their amps sold primarily via the custom installation channel which are also based on the drivecore chips

 

[dlaloum]

Well, my only 2 points are 1) they don’t have a MEASURED THD+N of 0.001% or SINAD of 95dB as measured by ASR and Audioholics and 2) they look ugly to most people.

They can still sound as good. No issue there.

For the Crown XLS2500 and siblings...

Their Signal/Noise is specced at 105db - so noise is not an issue
On the other hand they have relatively high THD (officially rated as max 0.5% within their operating envelope) which results in SINAD in the 70'sdb - according to their specs the 0.5% thd equates to SINAD of 46db.

But when measured on a test bench, different exemplars of the family have had SINADS measured at between 79db and 74db which equates to 0.018% THD or better - so by no means state of the art, but well beyond the audibility threshold for THD.... and on a par with a multitude of very well regarded vintage amps.

Yes the looks are.... industrial. But given that I would have to spend more than 10x more than I paid, to replace them with a different amp achieving the same audible result (not an improvement!) - I live with it.

 

[dlaloum]

LOL, ok, ok, I take out the absolute in that statement. How about, I'd like to rephrase it to say widespread use by guys in an audiophile setup. There's something to be said with an objective shootout, don't you think? It's not that I don't trust people's opinions, but we've all been to dealers and heard speakers or components sound one way and then have them sound completely different in another setup.

I would seriously like to have some hard data so that when someone in an "audiophile" forum says X about Crown it can be confirmed or denied.

I have participated in a number of audiophile forums discussing the Crown XLS amps, since around 2008...
Many audiophiles have tried those amps and been very impressed.

Harman used to use the Crown XLS amps in their high end demo setups for their flagship audio salons in NY and other cities.... (driving the TOTL JBL Synthesis speakers)

Yes lots of audiophiles have tried them - yes you can find forums on various sites, discussing their performance.
They have also been professionally reviewed numerous times with very positive results in most cases.

They have also been bench tested at ASR. So you can get actual bench test data.

The sum of which is - they sound great, their Signal to Noise is better than 105db (ie very good) - their THD is under 0.02% which is OK but not great (amounts to SINAD of around 75db).

For any use that requires high current (eg: difficult to drive speakers with impedances below 2 ohm) - they are an absolute gem, totally trouncing amps costing 10x as much.

For average standard 8ohm speakers that are easy to drive, they will sound just as good (or just as bad) as every other amp.... but are total overkill.

 

[dlaloum]

Dream, on bird breath!

More seriously, the discontinued Macro-Techs are documented here: Macro-Tech Series

I think it would be very interesting if Crown designed a home-oriented Class I amplifier, but that would seem to run counter to how Harman is organized now. Crown is all about pro audio. You would think Levinson would be a good brand to market it under, but since Sidney has been gone as CEO Harman's decision-making hasn't impressed me.

Harman assigned the Crown engineers to Levinson to design at least some of the amps there....

Harman also badge engineers the Crown amps and deploys drivecore amps in Lexicon and JBL Synthesis products.

Now that the house of Harman is owned by Samsung, and is a stablemate of B&O the maker and designer of the very successful ICE range of ClassD amp modules, one does wonder how things will proceed....

 

[PENG]

Their Signal/Noise is specced at 105db - so noise is not an issue
On the other hand they have relatively high THD (officially rated as max 0.5% within their operating envelope) which results in SINAD in the 70'sdb - according to their specs the 0.5% thd equates to SINAD of 46db.

But when measured on a test bench, different exemplars of the family have had SINADS measured at between 79db and 74db which equates to 0.018% THD or better - so by no means state of the art, but well beyond the audibility threshold for THD.... and on a par with a multitude of very well regarded vintage amps.

Just a cautionary note, unless noise is exceptionally low, do not equate THD to SINAD, because SINAD includes noise. 0.5% THD is about -46 dB THD, that's just a mathematical conversion from % to -dB, but it may not be close to 46 dB SINAD, it could be much lower depending on the noise.

The Crown XLS2500's SNR is >103 dB, but is A weighted, and for rated output (that's 440 W?), so it won't be that great for full bandwidth and at below a couple watts output level, though it would still be reasonably good.

Nitpicking aside, if I were to guess, the Crown amp's SINAD at 440 W into 8 ohm would probably be just a few dB less than your projected 46 dB, may be 43? That's probably below a lot of people's thresholds of audibility, in terms of distortions. In quiet rooms, under some conditions, hiss may be audible to people who are sensitive to that band of frequencies.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

For the Crown XLS2500 and siblings...

Their Signal/Noise is specced at 105db - so noise is not an issue
On the other hand they have relatively high THD (officially rated as max 0.5% within their operating envelope) which results in SINAD in the 70'sdb - according to their specs the 0.5% thd equates to SINAD of 46db.

But when measured on a test bench, different exemplars of the family have had SINADS measured at between 79db and 74db which equates to 0.018% THD or better - so by no means state of the art, but well beyond the audibility threshold for THD.... and on a par with a multitude of very well regarded vintage amps.

Yes the looks are.... industrial. But given that I would have to spend more than 10x more than I paid, to replace them with a different amp achieving the same audible result (not an improvement!) - I live with it.

100% understandable. Sound quality wise, they sound good.

But for any of these pro amps, regardless of brands and models, they are not going to have THD+N of 0.001%, SINAD of 95dB as measured on AH or ASR.

So for guys who are okay with the aesthetics and 76dB SINAD/0.01% THD+N, they will sound good.

 

[dlaloum]

Just a cautionary note, unless noise is exceptionally low, do not equate THD to SINAD, because SINAD includes noise. 0.5% THD is about -46 dB THD, that's just a mathematical conversion from % to -dB, but it may not be close to 46 dB SINAD, it could be much lower depending on the noise.

The Crown XLS2500's SNR is >103 dB, but is A weighted, and for rated output (that's 440 W?), so it won't be that great for full bandwidth and at below a couple watts output level, though it would still be reasonably good.

Nitpicking aside, if I were to guess, the Crown amp's SINAD at 440 W into 8 ohm would probably be just a few dB less than your projected 46 dB, may be 43? That's probably below a lot of people's thresholds of audibility, in terms of distortions. In quiet rooms, under some conditions, hiss may be audible to people who are sensitive to that band of frequencies.

Sinad measured at ASR was around 75db... with slight variations on different exemplars ( xls1502, xls2502 etc... )... @ 5w .

It is not noticeably different from the Quad 606.

 

[PENG]

Sinad measured at ASR was around 75db... with slight variations on different exemplars ( xls1502, xls2502 etc... )... @ 5w .

It is not noticeably different from the Quad 606.

75 dB at 5 W, or at 440 W rated output into 8 ohms I reference to?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Probably the best looking pro amp is the Yamaha PX amps (you can remove the rack handles). But even the PX3 is $650 or $325/CH. So for 11CH, that’s about $3600. Not exactly cheap for non-SOTA and not great looks.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Sinad measured at ASR was around 75db... with slight variations on different exemplars ( xls1502, xls2502 etc... )... @ 5w .

It is not noticeably different from the Quad 606.

Review and Measurements of Crown XLS 1502 Amp

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Crown XLS 1502 "PA" Power Amplifier. It is on a kind loan from a member who bought it new and drop shipped it to me. It retails for USD $349 including free Prime shipping from Amazon. At that price, it seems like an incredible value. I have...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Crown XLS2502 Stereo Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Crown XLS2502 DriveCore (switching) 2-channel amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member. The XLS 2502 cost US $645 including free shipping from Amazon. It has DSP functionality which I did not test. And is specified to drive 2 ohm load...

www.audiosciencereview.com

SINAD 71dB(xls2502) to 76dB (xls1502) is not bad.

 

[dlaloum]

75 dB at 5 W, or at 440 W rated output into 8 ohms I reference to?

75db @480w measured at asr
Dropping to 70db @ 5w
And down to 60db @ 0.1w

Noise varied from 79db @ 5w to 100db @ " full power "

So, not state of the art... but subjectively very good... and not sounding different from the more audiophile choices I have at hand.

Given sufficient budget, I would probably try an AHB2...

But it's a big step up price wise.

 

[fmw]

The Crown Drivecore setup was used in the Lexicon multichannel amp (basically a rebadged Crown!) - which was sold in the audiophile/videophile marketplace.
JBL also have a number of their amps sold primarily via the custom installation channel which are also based on the drivecore chips

They are versatile products to be sure.

 

[PENG]

75db @480w measured at asr
Dropping to 70db @ 5w
And down to 60db @ 0.1w

Noise varied from 79db @ 5w to 100db @ " full power "

So, not state of the art... but subjectively very good... and not sounding different from the more audiophile choices I have at hand.

Given sufficient budget, I would probably try an AHB2...

But it's a big step up price wise.

Where did you read that from?
I looked it up on ASR and the results there was:

75 dB, 480 W 4 ohms, not 8 ohm I referred to earlier. For 8 ohms, based on the ASR review of the XLS2502:

At 440 W, it looks to me SINAD (channel 2) was about -42 dB, pretty close to what I guessed.

You can't pick and choose to suit your claim, the fact is, for such tests, 480 W 4 ohms, would be 240 W 8 ohms, based on the same output voltage, so the amp would be operating within the sweet spot, hence the -75 dB number.

As I mentioned a few times before, on relatively more technically oriented forum like this one experienced members like you and I should take the opportunity to buck the trend by not inadvertently spread hearsay, over simplified specs, measurements and their interpretation.

For example, if we all work on avoid using the wrong terms such as RMS power/watts, power consumption specs as power supply VA ratings, SINAD as THD, and using single point SINAD, or THD, THD+N measured using 1 kHz, 4 or 8 ohms as the best case scenario when it isn't, over time we will have less incorrect or misleading information on internet forums.

If there is in fact a review with measurements, on the XLS2500 that shows your quoted 75 dB, 480 W, 8 ohms then forget what I said above, but please post a link to the review.

Below is from ASR, for the XLS2502

 

[dlaloum]

Where did you read that from?
I looked it up on ASR and the results there was:

75 dB, 480 W 4 ohms, not 8 ohm I referred to earlier. For 8 ohms, based on the ASR review of the XLS2502:

At 440 W, it looks to me SINAD (channel 2) was about -42 dB, pretty close to what I guessed.

You can't pick and choose to suit your claim, the fact is, for such tests, 480 W 4 ohms, would be 240 W 8 ohms, based on the same output voltage, so the amp would be operating within the sweet spot, hence the -75 dB number.

As I mentioned a few times before, on relatively more technically oriented forum like this one experienced members like you and I should take the opportunity to buck the trend by not inadvertently spread hearsay, over simplified specs, measurements and their interpretation.

For example, if we all work on avoid using the wrong terms such as RMS power/watts, power consumption specs as power supply VA ratings, SINAD as THD, and using single point SINAD, or THD, THD+N measured using 1 kHz, 4 or 8 ohms as the best case scenario when it isn't, over time we will have less incorrect or misleading information on internet forums.

If there is in fact a review with measurements, on the XLS2500 that shows your quoted 75 dB, 480 W, 8 ohms then forget what I said above, but please post a link to the review.

Below is from ASR, for the XLS2502

View attachment 62058

Nah, I misread the graph and was looking at the 4ohm chart when I mean to check the 8ohm one... (happens when responding at 2am local time...)

Also this power rating as tested was a bit disappointing given the manufacturer spec of 440W (mind you, its not like I am getting anywhere near the "mere" 300W shown here!!!) - but it is also worth keeping in mind that the manufacturer spec is based on the much less demanding 1kHz tone - rather than full range test - so I always think of them as 2/3rds of whatever is on the spec... (which in this case is ample)

And no I have not seen a thorough test done on the earlier XLS2500 that I have - based on the inherent similarities of the designs (and the specifications) - I would assume they are to all intents and purposes identical, or near enough to it.

Effectively this shows that within the important performance area ( roughly 1W to 20W for standard home use!) the THD+N remains below 68db...

And referring to some of the other charts:

The SNR at 5 Watts (was that 5W into 4 ohm or 8ohm... not clear... but also not the point) - is in the barely acceptable range...
At Full power it is well and truly in the "good" range - but it is never used at that power level.

So yes - in an engineering sense, the specs are less than ideal - but in actual use, for those of us with hard to drive speakers - these amps are absolute lifesavers.
And they leave the vast majority of amps that are within 50% to 100% more than their price, looking (and sounding) pretty sad when it comes to driving such speakers.

 

[PENG]

Nah, I misread the graph and was looking at the 4ohm chart when I mean to check the 8ohm one... (happens when responding at 2am local time...)

Also this power rating as tested was a bit disappointing given the manufacturer spec of 440W (mind you, its not like I am getting anywhere near the "mere" 300W shown here!!!) - but it is also worth keeping in mind that the manufacturer spec is based on the much less demanding 1kHz tone - rather than full range test - so I always think of them as 2/3rds of whatever is on the spec... (which in this case is ample)

And no I have not seen a thorough test done on the earlier XLS2500 that I have - based on the inherent similarities of the designs (and the specifications) - I would assume they are to all intents and purposes identical, or near enough to it.

Effectively this shows that within the important performance area ( roughly 1W to 20W for standard home use!) the THD+N remains below 68db...

And referring to some of the other charts:

View attachment 62082

The SNR at 5 Watts (was that 5W into 4 ohm or 8ohm... not clear... but also not the point) - is in the barely acceptable range...
At Full power it is well and truly in the "good" range - but it is never used at that power level.

So yes - in an engineering sense, the specs are less than ideal - but in actual use, for those of us with hard to drive speakers - these amps are absolute lifesavers.
And they leave the vast majority of amps that are within 50% to 100% more than their price, looking (and sounding) pretty sad when it comes to driving such speakers.

My points were mainly about the need for us to try and interpret specs and measurements as accurately as we can, and I know members like you have the knowledge and experience to do so. I am just being too passionate about this, knowing that the internet is full of false information on this hobby, so sorry for being come across as being harsh on you, totally not personal at all.

As for practical use, if I have the need for a power amp for 2-4 ohm speakers, I would not hesitate to use that amp. Based on ASR bench test, this thing can do, as you quoted 480 W into 4 ohms at 75 dB SINAD, and if you extend that graph, THD+N vs, output level, it may be able to maintain about -55 dB, that's 55 dB SINAD (or -57 dB for 8 ohm load) at less than 0.05 W, or 50 mW. That means I would have no concern about using it for low level listening either. The only thing is, when not on sale, the buckeye amps do offer better value, if one only needs a pure power amp, without all the extra features the XLS amps offer.

 

[cpp]

Huh? The cheapest Crown MacroTech amp is about $4600.

Or ya can step up to this at $10K
Crown I-Tech 12000HD Power Amplifier

 

[dlaloum]

My points were mainly about the need for us to try and interpret specs and measurements as accurately as we can, and I know members like you have the knowledge and experience to do so. I am just being too passionate about this, knowing that the internet is full of false information on this hobby, so sorry for being come across as being harsh on you, totally not personal at all.

As for practical use, if I have the need for a power amp for 2-4 ohm speakers, I would not hesitate to use that amp. Based on ASR bench test, this thing can do, as you quoted 480 W into 4 ohms at 75 dB SINAD, and if you extend that graph, THD+N vs, output level, it may be able to maintain about -55 dB, that's 55 dB SINAD (or -57 dB for 8 ohm load) at less than 0.05 W, or 50 mW. That means I would have no concern about using it for low level listening either. The only thing is, when not on sale, the buckeye amps do offer better value, if one only needs a pure power amp, without all the extra features the XLS amps offer.

When I first got them I was experimenting with BiAmping the Gallo's ... so the power in combination with low impedance handling and the DSP's was a very interesting combo.... (not to mention getting them for US$250) but later (after finding that BiAmping seemed to do nothing much), I noticed that Anthony Gallo himself used to demo these speakers with a Spectron Musician III 500W@8ohm class D amp... without biamping.

It seems, you could optimise them with lower powered amps, by driving the woofer (dare I say the "sub" ) - via a seperate 250W amp (and Gallo marketed a specific sub-amp for it) while using something smaller for the mids and highs.... but the mids and highs still need an amp with the ability to handle low impedance (that 1.6 ohm impedance is on the tweeter!) - so yes it would match well with quite a few high current low impedance capable flea powered amps, when matched with its sub amp or an equivalent high powered amp with crossover.

But if you had an amp capable of driving the whole shebang cleanly - the results were at least on a par if not better.

The Crown XLS2500 does not have the audiophile pretensions that the spectron musician did (a now defunct brand, as the engineer behind it passed some years back) - but I found that the base requirements and results seemed to match quite closely...

If I was looking for a replacement amp today, I would target something without the DSP, and with better SINAD.... But these sound so damn good in my setup, the itch to upgrade/replace just isn't there...

The one thing that might cause me to retire them, would be an AVR capable of driving the speaker load properly AND having Dirac ART.... perhap a future update to the Integra DRX 8.4? Simplifying the setup is always an attractive option... (but even then I would do some extensive trialling back to back first...)

I also still have my pair of Quad 606's in storage... and they too handled these speakers well...and are such a nice sounding amp that I couldn't quite get myself to part with them... (I do have a bit of hoarding going on here...)

 

[PENG]

Review and Measurements of Crown XLS 1502 Amp

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Crown XLS 1502 "PA" Power Amplifier. It is on a kind loan from a member who bought it new and drop shipped it to me. It retails for USD $349 including free Prime shipping from Amazon. At that price, it seems like an incredible value. I have...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Crown XLS2502 Stereo Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Crown XLS2502 DriveCore (switching) 2-channel amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member. The XLS 2502 cost US $645 including free shipping from Amazon. It has DSP functionality which I did not test. And is specified to drive 2 ohm load...

www.audiosciencereview.com

SINAD 71dB(xls2502) to 76dB (xls1502) is not bad.

I seemed to remember the 1502 used to go for around $300 only a few years ago, if it happens again, I might just grab one even if I don't need one.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I seemed to remember the 1502 used to go for around $300 only a few years ago, if it happens again, I might just grab one even if I don't need one.

Inflation alright.

Always a good idea to have a backup - like a comparable AVR backing up the AVP + Amp. Or just a backup amp.

I actually have a backup to my Yamaha stereo mixer for my Karaoke.

But if I already have a backup, there’s no way I’m buying it just to let it sit in the closet in addition to the backup.