wafflesstorm

wafflesstorm

Audiophyte
Interesting study. A couple of issues that immediately come to mind:

Protection from infection/illness depends on...becoming infected/ill. While that infection may indeed offer protection from later infection, one is rolling the dice and hoping that the initial infection doesn't have serious consequences. Meanwhile, during an initial infection, one is able to spread it to others.

As a public health protection strategy, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. That said, maybe PH authorities could throw anti-vaxxers a bone and provide an "equivalent to vaccinated" certification to those who have tested positive (presumably via PCR), enabling them to work and travel where vaccine mandates apply.

As you said, there are limitations to the study, so I don't think we'll see changes in PH policy soon anytime soon.
I really enjoy this discussion on coronavirus on the Audioholics forums. It's great to see a discourse community come together to share thoughts, ideas, and perspectives on such an important topic. In fact, I recently wrote an article for https://samploon.com/free-essays/discourse-community/ on the importance of discourse communities and how they can bring people together to promote dialogue and understanding. I`m not a student, but I`m helping them with their writing tasks. Audioholics is a great example of this type of community and I'm glad to be a part of it.
An excellent proposal for a public health strategy. It's a pity that this is unlikely to be supported.
 
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M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Well, one would hope not, but I worked in that industry for 30 years and there have been plenty of bad episodes. You can look up the fines that J&J paid out over their off label promotion of Risperdal for children. They would pay doctors to be speakers and conduct seminars during which they are allowed to present data on research in off-label illnesses. If an attending physician asks a specific question, the speaker is allowed to answer the question. Next thing you know, huge numbers of children are being prescribed Risperdal off label. And there was the Purdue Pharma debacle with Oxycontin.

As for these respiratory viruses, I can see how and why a company would want to be ready for the next covid-like virus, but it seems you'd want to be extremely careful doing research that modifies a bug like covid-19. Didn't anybody watch Outbreak? :cool:
I'm still not one of the people who suspect they would, for monetary purposes, actually intentionally or accidentally release a new virus or variant that would require a whole new round of vaccinations with a new vaccine.

But you are free to be one if it suits your fancy.
 
M

mtrot

Senior Audioholic
I'm still not one of the people who suspect they would, for monetary purposes, actually intentionally or accidentally release a new virus or variant that would require a whole new round of vaccinations with a new vaccine.

But you are free to be one if it suits your fancy.
Do you realize how much company revenue could potentially involved here? Do you realize that Pfizer's stock has been pretty stagnant for about 10 years now? You are free to have total trust in for profit companies if you want.

Many years ago, I was in a doctor's office along with a Pfizer rep while he was "detailing" a doctor on a product and he said to the doctor, "whatever it takes", to get his business. Pfizer was well known for being just about the most aggressive in providing various "perks" to get the docs to prescribe their drugs. Have you worked in the pharma industry?
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
I'm still not one of the people who suspect they would, for monetary purposes, actually intentionally or accidentally release a new virus or variant that would require a whole new round of vaccinations with a new vaccine.

But you are free to be one if it suits your fancy.
Mr Clark, you are a Barrister, correct ??

Follow the money !!!
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Mr Clark, you are a Barrister, correct ??

Follow the money !!!
If someone were to release a pathogen for the purpose of making money it would be an intentional act.

I believe any person who tried this would be charged and convicted under 18 USC 2332a, and sentenced to death if it results in even one death (I believe deaths resulting from a virus that is known to evade existing immunity is a certainty)

18 USC 2332a: "(a) Offense Against a National of the United States or Within the United States.—A person who, without lawful authority, uses, threatens, or attempts or conspires to use, a weapon of mass destruction— . . . shall be imprisoned for any term of years or for life, and if death results, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life. . . . the term “weapon of mass destruction” means . . . any weapon involving a biological agent, toxin, or vector (as those terms are defined in section 178 of this title)" (emphasis added).


Section 178: "the term “biological agent” means any microorganism (including, but not limited to, bacteria, viruses, fungi, rickettsiae or protozoa), or infectious substance, or any naturally occurring, bioengineered or synthesized component of any such microorganism or infectious substance, capable of causing— (A) death, disease, or other biological malfunction in a human, an animal, a plant, or another living organism"


Pfizer reportedly sells the COVID vaccine for about $20 per dose:

>>>Under one pandemic supply deal, Pfizer is charging the U.S. $19.50 per dose, D'Amelio said, which is “not a normal price like we typically get for a vaccine—$150, $175 per dose. So, pandemic pricing.”<<<


Even if Pfizer raises it to $200 per dose and we assume this is 100% profit (this cannot be correct, of course), the civil and criminal damages for intentionally releasing a pathogen would be many thousands of times the potential profit. It would instantly bankrupt the company.

I believe that anyone who was involved in intentionally releasing a pathogen would be found personally liable for civil damages that would be thousands of times greater than any potential financial gain the person might experience.

In short, anyone involved would likely be sentenced to death, their assets would be seized, and their estate would owe millions in damages.

One would have to be a complete f'ing moron to try this.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
yeah, just about as pathetic as CNN / MSNBC ! :eek:
It's no surprise that you hold that view, but there is a crucial difference: Fox "News" knowingly spread lies that undermines a corner stone in US democracy: elections and peaceful transfer of power.

Fox "News" where pushing interviews and conspiracy theories about the 2020 election on-air while at the same time internally knew that it was all false, and this is proven in the Dominion lawsuit they currently are in. Tucker Carlson even tried to get a Fox "News" reporter fired for fact-checking a Trump tweet.

Perhaps you've heard about this, no? Fox "News" are not saying anything about their lies on air, so a group tried to air an ad on the network, which was refused:

 
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GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
If the data pans out that post-infection immunity is equivalent or stronger than that of mRNA vaccines, then it wouldn't be "throwing them a bone". It would be a reasonable response to the data.
I consider it "throwing them a bone", because an equivalent to vaccinated certification could be viewed as enabling/legitimizing irresponsible behaviour, i.e. refusing vaccination.
 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
There will be an at-home test that determines between flu and covid. Price has not been determined yet.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I am no conspiracy advocate. But Big Pharma is not exactly our friend.
I don't think you can do that. You know, say you're not a thing then say something that proves otherwise right after.

I've got big pharma up my @ss sideways. Better living through chemistry, I always say. I'm a go take about 9 pills now.

Big Pharma is my best friend ... no, really.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I don't think you can do that. You know, say you're not a thing then say something that proves otherwise right after.

I've got big pharma up my @ss sideways. Better living through chemistry, I always say. I'm a go take about 9 pills now.

Big Pharma is my best friend ... no, really.
I take 9 pills six days a week, and 19 on Fridays. Once every other week, I inject another modern miracle of Big Pharma.

I may rant & rave about the cost, but I blame that on the greedy sales execs who run Big Pharma. Plus the greedy senators & congressmen that Big Pharma buys.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I don't think you can do that. You know, say you're not a thing then say something that proves otherwise right after.

I've got big pharma up my @ss sideways. Better living through chemistry, I always say. I'm a go take about 9 pills now.

Big Pharma is my best friend ... no, really.
WHAT????!!! YOUR SLEEPING WITH THE ENEMY!!!!!!!???? :eek:

Now if you'll be so kind as to excuse me I'll go take my 14 pills right now and be back to discuss this further :rolleyes:
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
the greedy sales execs who run Big Pharma. Plus the greedy senators & congressmen that Big Pharma buys.

greedy sales execs who run Big Pharma. Plus the greedy senators & congressmen that Big Pharma buys

greedy sales execs who run Big Pharma. Plus the greedy senators & congressmen that Big Pharma buys

Ummmm...... am I missing something here? ;)

Look I'm not one that thinks they're going all Umbrella corporation here. But they're is nothing wrong with pushing back on them to keep them honest. And if you don't think they need it. That's fine I respect your point of view.

I still remember that Teflon cooking spray incident. An entire town that the last time I checked was still waiting to get theyre settlement. Due to the fact that literally every one of them ended up with cancer and literally everything else fd up you can think of.

I still remember them padding the results on Zyprexa for it causing diabetes and all sorts of health stuff. I think they lost like a half a billion lawsuit on that?

There's a long list we could be here all day

. And when your dealing with huge companies like this that hold this much power and our health in our hands yet as you said have most of our politicians in they're back pocket. Yeah I'd say some healthy skepticism and pushback is ok

It's okay to have a little of both. Gratitude for what Big Pharma can do and skepticism for what they are capable of in my opinion
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I don't think you can do that. You know, say you're not a thing then say something that proves otherwise right after.

I've got big pharma up my @ss sideways. Better living through chemistry, I always say. I'm a go take about 9 pills now.

Big Pharma is my best friend ... no, really.
I've got big pharma up my @ss sideways

That's what she said :D:D:D:D:D:D

Ok ok ok she didn't say that

I did... :eek:
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Do you realize how much company revenue could potentially involved here? Do you realize that Pfizer's stock has been pretty stagnant for about 10 years now? You are free to have total trust in for profit companies if you want.

Many years ago, I was in a doctor's office along with a Pfizer rep while he was "detailing" a doctor on a product and he said to the doctor, "whatever it takes", to get his business. Pfizer was well known for being just about the most aggressive in providing various "perks" to get the docs to prescribe their drugs. Have you worked in the pharma industry?
My Doctor an amazing man I'll forever be grateful for his impact on my life that treats my bipolar accepts cash only. He will not accept insurance. Eye opening when he explained to me the reasons why.

As someone whose been in the system as a patient and in psychiatric health care for my career after I got my life back I have my reasons for wanting to stay balanced on this whole issue.

You won't catch me running around saying don't get vacced they're out to get you!!!! New World Order!!!!

But you also won't catch me simping for these companies either
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I take 9 pills six days a week, and 19 on Fridays. Once every other week, I inject another modern miracle of Big Pharma.

I may rant & rave about the cost, but I blame that on the greedy sales execs who run Big Pharma. Plus the greedy senators & congressmen that Big Pharma buys.
And, I would add, all the in-between operators that take their share of the pie.
 
M

mtrot

Senior Audioholic
Not covid-19, but this is bears watching. If this bird flu ever mutated to be able to infect people in the nasal passages, it could make covid-19 look like a piker, with up to 50% mortality.

 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Eric Topol recently posted about numerous studies (all with limitations) that show increased risk for heart attacks and strokes late (30+ days) after COVID.

The available studies suggest that being vaccinated decreases the risk compared to being unvaccinated, but vaccination does not completely eliminate the risk from COVID.

I find myself wondering how many people experience some cardiovascular issues due to COVID that do not rise to the level of a stroke or heart attack. I can't prove it, but I suspect COVID has had a negative impact on my cardiovascular system (my running speed for a given heart rate dropped after getting COVID about 7 months ago and I'm still not back to where I was pre-COVID).

>>>As far as a mechanism for the excess of late (beyond 30 days from Covid) major cardiovascular outcomes, it has been well established that there is both endothelial lining of blood vessels) inflammation and the inter-dependent or direct hyper-coagulability that can be induced by Covid. That is to say, there are multiple paths by which Covid predisposes towards clotting. And microclots are one of the mechanisms that have been identified as an underpinning for some people suffering from Long Covid.

What does all this mean?

Al-Aly’s first study has now been replicated by others. It’s an inconvenient truth that Covid is associated with an excess of heart attacks and strokes beyond the first month of infection. That can no longer be ignored or refuted. The positive outlook is that these studies zoomed in on patients infected in the pre-vaccine era, and subsequently we’ve seen that vaccinations were linked with halving the adverse outcomes. But even with vaccination the rate isn’t zero.<<<

 

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