Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Well, you know good and well, or should know, that the House investigation is not about blocking pictures. The potential international influence peddling scheme by Hunter and Joe is a serious issue.

And I think they are already looking into this fraudulent use of covid funds.
If you actually watched this poop show of Republican oversight, I did some parts, you would know that your claims are not connected to reality.
 
M

mtrot

Senior Audioholic
You continue to post falsehoods as if they are known facts. Just a few recent examples:
Rural areas with higher rates of severe illness or death cannot be compared to more suburban areas for several reasons without looking into a number of possible factors. Only one of them is different rates of vaccination among those populations. The quantity and quality of present & past medical care, both in or out of hospitals, are quite different. Unless you account for such varied differences, any conclusions are meaningless. You might as well be comparing apples to oranges. Some successful comparisons have been done, by others who actually made efforts to account for these differences. Why don't you look some of them up?
Again, such conclusions require good data. Do you have any? It is much easier to collect clinical data on severe illness (requiring hospitalization) or deaths than it is to collect data on rates of infection. If you had looked up some of this data (it does exist), you'd find that your conclusions are unwarranted and over simplified – perhaps over confident.
The misinformation was more than regrettable. It was deliberate and widely repeated falsehoods, meant to inflame the uninformed public who were regrettably inclined to let Faux News (and others) be their only source of news. These falsehoods have been intentionally repeated for years. I find your reaction to this, saying it's "regrettable", is no better than turning a blind eye to those who shout fire in a crowded theater.
That 'latest trend' is only a trend among the willfully misinformed. Such adverse events have been intensely studied by the medical world. They concluded that it is a possible risk, but it is so rare that there was no reason to remove approval of the vaccines.
The same goes for myocarditis. It is a known but very rare adverse event. It was carfully considered before it was ruled out as a reason to stop using the vaccines.

The continued mention of these rare adverse events is evidence that you and others like you are ignorant of the careful effort that goes into planning and evaluating clinical trials for medications like vaccines. You'd rather use such information as false reasons why the vaccines are not safe. That couldn't be further from the truth.
I understand all of that and agree with you. Another factor to consider is population density, which is much greater in big urban cities. But would you agree that, all other factors being accounted for, areas with a lower vaccination rate likely had a higher rate of severe illness and death than those with a higher vaccination rate? If you don't think that should be the case, then what does that say about the efficacy of the shots? Again, I am not anti-vax and have received three Moderna shots, as has my wife, in case you didn't see my previous post about that.

Yes, of course, myocarditis is a rare event post vaccination, but I'm not clear on what you are saying. Are you saying that, in the event of a sudden cardiac death in a young male, the question should not be asked as to whether the vaccine may have played a role? It seems that, since myocarditis is a known adverse reaction, you would want continuing follow up data to be collected.

And I worked in the pharmaceutical field for 30 years, so, yes, I do understand about clinical trial design and multi-variate analysis.

Also, your last comment demonstrates that you haven't really read my comments that well. I've stated repeatedly that I am not anti-vax. And I've nowhere stated that they are "not safe", but no vaccine is 100% safe. It's as if you just want to get your back up if someone even mentions a possible adverse effect.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Yes, of course, myocarditis is a rare event post vaccination, but I'm not clear on what you are saying. Are you saying that, in the event of a sudden cardiac death in a young male, the question should not be asked as to whether the vaccine may have played a role? It seems that, since myocarditis is a known adverse reaction, you would want continuing follow up data to be collected.
The question is indeed asked. It's asked precisely because myocarditis related death within 30 days of vaccination is on a watch list that the FDA keeps on such rare adverse events like this. This is for approved drugs such as the Covid-19 vaccines, and for experimental drugs still undergoing clinical trials.

Deaths and severe adverse reactions all must be reported to the FDA, along with thorough information on the case, including cause of death, all underlying conditions, patient histories, medical lab tests results, and a physicians signed assessment of whether the vaccine might have been involved in the death. If enough of these reports come in, the FDA revisits it's earlier approval of the drug. On rare occasions the FDA rescinds prior approval of a drug or class of drugs. Such as when some COX-2 inhibitor drugs which had been approved for use to prevent heart disease, were disapproved. So far, nothing about the Covid-19 vaccines has come close to this.

You mentioned working in the pharmaceutical industry. I'm surprised that you claim the the mRNA based Covid-19 vaccines are not "real vaccines". They absolutely are vaccines in any sense of the definition. Any scientist, physician, lab technician, or sales rep should know better than to make such a false claim. This is not a matter of differing opinions.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
But would you agree that, all other factors being accounted for, areas with a lower vaccination rate likely had a higher rate of severe illness and death than those with a higher vaccination rate?
That was one of his main points in his reply to you, for Gods sake.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
You mentioned working in the pharmaceutical industry
He did? I missed that one, my bad. He should know better then, depending what he is actually doing in the pharmaceutical industry.
 
M

mtrot

Senior Audioholic
That was one of his main points in his reply to you, for Gods sake.
It didn't seem like that to me at all. Maybe I didn't understand, but if you read Swerd's response to my comment, he seemed to be taking issue with that comment of mine, not agreeing with it. Here is what he wrote:

"Rural areas with higher rates of severe illness or death cannot be compared to more suburban areas for several reasons without looking into a number of possible factors. Only one of them is different rates of vaccination among those populations. The quantity and quality of present & past medical care, both in or out of hospitals, are quite different. Unless you account for such varied differences, any conclusions are meaningless. You might as well be comparing apples to oranges."

I thought you guys would be happy that I was agreeing with you about the efficacy of the vaccines, but I guess not.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
I thought you guys would be happy that I was agreeing with you about the efficacy of the vaccines, but I guess not.
Depends on the reasons for agreeing, actually, and you do have a little uphill workout to engage with. I don’t accuse you of sycophancy at all, but we’re not happy about that from anyone.
 
M

mtrot

Senior Audioholic
Depends on the reasons for agreeing, actually, and you do have a little uphill workout to engage with. I don’t accuse you of sycophancy at all, but we’re not happy about that from anyone.
No sycophancy required on my part, at all. I've always believed and said the vaccines reduce severe illness and death. It's not like I just came around to that. You might test positive for covid even fully vaccinated, but it usually results in only mild or moderate illness, or no symptoms at all.
 
M

mtrot

Senior Audioholic
Again, such conclusions require good data. Do you have any? It is much easier to collect clinical data on severe illness (requiring hospitalization) or deaths than it is to collect data on rates of infection. If you had looked up some of this data (it does exist), you'd find that your conclusions are unwarranted and over simplified – perhaps over confident.
Well, here is a recent article for your review. Basically supports what I wrote, i.e., that the vaccines do not prevent you from contracting the current variants or transmitting them, but do protect against severe illness and/or death.

 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
He did? I missed that one, my bad. He should know better then, depending what he is actually doing in the pharmaceutical industry.
Not necessarily. Just look at that nutjob of a group called Front line doctors, and other medical professionals who are on the dark side.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
You might test positive for covid even fully vaccinated, but it usually results in only mild or moderate illness, or no symptoms at all.
That is true, but COVID killed so very many people but also indirectly in that diseases became deadly due to the pandemic.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Not necessarily. Just look at that nutjob of a group called Front line doctors, and other medical professionals who are on the dark side.
I guess he perhaps should tell us what he is doing in the pharmaceutical industry.
 
M

mtrot

Senior Audioholic
That is true, but COVID killed so very many people but also indirectly in that diseases became deadly due to the pandemic.
Yep, there was a lot of continuing and acute medical care that was missed, as well as tons of missed screening visits for various diseases. I think this may explain some of the excess mortality or decreased life expectancy that was seen as we came out of the pandemic. Some people blamed that on the covid vaccines, but it seems to me more likely the result of a couple years of inadequate medical care for chronic conditions, and reduced fitness levels due to more sedentary lifestyles, etc.
 
M

mtrot

Senior Audioholic
I guess he perhaps should tell us what he is doing in the pharmaceutical industry.
Sure, I was a lowly sales rep, so I guess that automatically means anything I say is wrong, by definition!:rolleyes:
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Sure, I was a lowly sales rep, so I guess that automatically means anything I say is wrong, by definition!:rolleyes:
No, it does not at all, nor did anyone suggest that, I think.

That said, you are sparring with researchers in related fields (not me, different area long ago). That is an uphill battle. :)
 
M

mtrot

Senior Audioholic
No, it does not at all, nor did anyone suggest that, I think.

That said, you are sparring with researchers in related fields (not me, different area long ago). That is an uphill battle. :)
Yes, I gleaned that from some of their comments, so I will have to defer to their expertise and experience with clinical trial design and analysis. I represented various antibiotics of different classes for a couple decades and feel I have a decent understanding of bacteria and bacterial infections, but I was never involved with anti-virals.

Now, with respect to the actual science around covid-19, it's not a "battle" for me because I don't have a dog in the hunt; it is what it is and I just want to try to know the facts as best as I can.

But it is with regard to the nature and extent of permissible governmental responses to events that there can be differences of opinion, especially in a country in which there are significant constitutional restrictions placed upon the government. And, again, I am not saying that the authorities cannot enact public health measures, but they cannot unreasonably take indefinite or onerous actions that deny citizens their constitutional rights such as freedom of assembly and freedom of religion, which they did.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
This is your second post in a day on this subject of COVID support to companies to keep employees employed. My qualified guess is that you opposed this support.

What would you’ve done instead? A pandemic is for sure coming again.
But as usual, this program was widely and wildly abused. This is par for the course in the US- I posted about Hurricane Katrina aid abuses and it happens every time, in every situation. Add price gouging and it's just another reason for Americans to look like turds.
 
M

mtrot

Senior Audioholic
But as usual, this program was widely and wildly abused. This is par for the course in the US- I posted about Hurricane Katrina aid abuses and it happens every time, in every situation. Add price gouging and it's just another reason for Americans to look like turds.
Yes, that seems to be the American way these days. And it seems that, since another pandemic is "for sure coming again", one is not allowed to point out and question the waste and fraud that occurred with tax payer money. If such fraudulent activity is not rooted out and dealt with, then the same kind of fraud is "for sure coming again".
 
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Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Yes, that seems to be the American way these days. And it seems that, since another pandemic is "for sure coming again", one is not allowed to point out and question the waste and fraud that occurred with tax payer money. If such fraudulent activity is not rooted out and dealt with, then the same kind of fraud is "for sure coming again".
That is a straw man argument as none has said not to investigate or question fraud, and I explicitly wrote that should be done in a reply to you.

That is something for the House Oversight Committee to look into, but the Republicans thinks that Twitter blocking posts of private pictures of Hunter Bidens genitals is much more important.
 
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M

mtrot

Senior Audioholic
That is a straw man argument as none has said not to investigate or question fraud, and I explicitly wrote that should be done in a reply to you.

That is something for the House Oversight Committee to look into, but the Republicans thinks that Twitter blocking posts of private pictures of Hunter Bidens genitals is much more important.
Good grief, what do you think I was "arguing"? I wasn't arguing anything. It seems you just have to reflexively assume the worst and take an oppositional attitude to anything I post. My last post was not political or intended to criticize the covid relief programs, but rather a general observation about the tendency of a good chunk of the US population to try to dishonestly capitalize on such programs. That's all.
 

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