Coronavirus

[JerryLove]

you people

wished the media would quit trying to make his trailer park wife

As long as you people embrace that consuming kind of hate

Us vs them: the sinister techniques of ‘Othering’ – and how to avoid them

Rapid social change causes all humans anxiety – but our response to this need not be negative, despite the best efforts of our politicians and media

www.theguardian.com

 

[KEW]

Check your facts again Herbu. He down played the seriousness of this disease and this can be clearly demonstrated by the fact that he wanted to return the work force by Easter. He had no clue how serious this was and he just recently reversed his decision.

... and there is this little gem during a press conference, 2/16/2020:
“When you have 15 [cases in the United States], and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.”
- Trump, congratulating himself for the (soon to be) elimination of the CoronaVirus.

 

[shadyJ]

Shady, you people are ...

 

[mtrycrafts]

... and there is this little gem during a press conference, 2/16/2020:
“When you have 15 [cases in the United States], and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.”
- Trump, congratulating himself for the (soon to be) elimination of the CoronaVirus.

Well, he has a hard time with numbers as well. What else is new?
Mr. know it all. Not so much at all.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Nope. History will credit him with keeping the US from becoming Communist.

You mean we were on the brink of becoming? Really?

 

[panteragstk]

 

[JerryLove]

Since we are super political on a Coronavirus thread we should at least combine them and say "Thanks Obama!".

I mean, other than:

• Create the Directorate for Global Health security, responsible for preventing pandemics (Disbanded by Trump in 2018)
• Write a Pandemic response playbook (lost by the Trump Administration)
• Stationed an expert from the CDC in Bejing (position eliminated by Trump last year)
• Provided the Tump transition team a training exercise that was literally a mock Pandemic (Trump fired everyone who received the training)

Other than that: what did Obama ever do to help should a potential Pandemic emerge?

Well, that and Obamacare.

But besides all that.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think we have to stop getting to much local politics into this.

This is all the fault of China and lets not forget that. They have in fact committed a great crime against humanity.

They covered this up and used fascist tactics against their own population, including professionals.

Also it is now clear that they actually lied about the seriousness of this all along. This has caused an inadequate response from our medical teams here and in Europe. What we are now finding, and Europe has found, that this is a far bigger "tiger" than the Chinese let on.

This is rapidly turning into a catastrophic disaster for which the Chinese are largely responsible. The other explanation would be that this virus is becoming more virulent. However I doubt that. We were lied to from the beginning and told a series of half truths.

Michael Gove a senior British cabinet minister has called them out and is of the opinion we can't do business with them. Sorry Mathew Poes, but it will have to be a cold day in Hell before we take more junk receivers from China.

In Europe these sentiments are rising fast.

Here is an example of the sort of thing that is now in the correspondence columns of UK newspapers.

[Victor Theofilopoulos1 Apr 2020 4:42PM

Wonder when China will formally apologise to the entire world for the crime it has committed against humanity? When will world leaders and the UN demand that China pays the bill for the whole planet having caused such devastation.
Meanwhile we learn today that their infamous markets are back in business. The Chinese eat whatever moves. The only thing they don't eat with 4 legs are tables and chairs, hope I haven't given them more ideas now to enrich their filthy habits and revolting diet. The Chinese defecate where they eat and eat where they defecate; thise wet markets are the epitome if filth - then we wonder why this unprecedented crime against humanity has been created.
We "the whole world" have to put up with a dirty, filthy race that knows no bounds of acceptable behaviour and all controlled by a regime which actively sponsors subterfuge, kidnap and killings for those who have spoken up and speak up about the despicable cover up reharding the crime of Covid-19.
When will world leaders grow a pair and demand for China to pick up the entire bill for the death and devastation they are still causing?]

I refrained from correcting the author's spelling.

Western nations should issue a warrant for the arrest of Xi Jinping and all members of that politburo in China. I detected a rising desire, at least in Europe to see that mob in the dock of the Court of International Justice in the Hague.

In any event the financial repercussions are going to be severe, and very likely result in the return pegged currencies and exchange controls. This will be the result of the money printing to avoid catastrophic starvation and homelessness. After this it will be a considerable time before any country trusts another's currency. There are signs of this already, as the Bank of England is having trouble selling its guilt edged bonds. The buyers are dictating the terms, and not the bank.

So lets not attack each other but concentrate on the real villains in all of this. There is no doubt who that is.

 

[JerryLove]

They covered this up and used fascist tactics against their own population, including professionals.

...

In Europe these sentiments are rising fast.

You are citing Con Coughlin and the Telegraph?

This is the Trump advocate who favored waterboarding... but you are using him to argue that someone else is using fascist tactics?

Wow. Just wow.

Also it is now clear that they actually lied about the seriousness of this all along. This has caused an inadequate response from our medical teams here and in Europe.

That must be it. Certainly the fact that South Korea took this so much more seriously and acted so much more effectively could not possibly indicate that the problem wasn't a lack of enough information to make that call correctly, but rather obfuscation from China. Remind me again how S.Korea managed to treat it appropriately despite that?

Trump and his allies calling this a "hoax" certainly had nothing to do with. Say: he's in the chain of command for the CDC and NIH, isn't he?

Wonder why the CDC hasn't been involved in Trump's briefings.

Trump screaming over the phone to the secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, which includes the CDC. in response to Dr. Messonnier warned during a regular briefing that it was only a matter of time before the pandemic began spreading in the United States and the situation could turn bad quickly. "Disruption to everyday life might be severe," she said as she urged Americans to prepare their families for those disruptions, which are now being realized.

The day after she did so, President Donald Trump appointed Vice President Mike Pence to lead a coronavirus response task force.

Must have been the Chinese making him do that.

Meanwhile we learn today that their infamous markets are back in business. The Chinese eat whatever moves. The only thing they don't eat with 4 legs are tables and chairs, hope I haven't given them more ideas now to enrich their filthy habits and revolting diet. The Chinese defecate where they eat and eat where they defecate; thise wet markets are the epitome if filth

Yea. That's not at all racist [/s]

So lets not attack each other but concentrate on the real villains in all of this. There is no doubt who that is.

That's right. It's the outsiders. They are doing this to us. We are the victims and everything wrong with our lives can be explained by them being out to get us.

Why does that rhetoric sound so familiar?

I guess one never knows about some people until they show their colors.

 

[TLS Guy]

You are citing Con Coughlin and the Telegraph?

This is the Trump advocate who favored waterboarding... but you are using him to argue that someone else is using fascist tactics?

Wow. Just wow.



That must be it. Certainly the fact that South Korea took this so much more seriously and acted so much more effectively could not possibly indicate that the problem wasn't a lack of enough information to make that call correctly, but rather obfuscation from China. Remind me again how S.Korea managed to treat it appropriately despite that?

Trump and his allies calling this a "hoax" certainly had nothing to do with. Say: he's in the chain of command for the CDC and NIH, isn't he?

Wonder why the CDC hasn't been involved in Trump's briefings.

Trump screaming over the phone to the secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, which includes the CDC. in response to Dr. Messonnier warned during a regular briefing that it was only a matter of time before the pandemic began spreading in the United States and the situation could turn bad quickly. "Disruption to everyday life might be severe," she said as she urged Americans to prepare their families for those disruptions, which are now being realized.

The day after she did so, President Donald Trump appointed Vice President Mike Pence to lead a coronavirus response task force.

Must have been the Chinese making him do that.


Yea. That's not at all racist [/s]

That's right. It's the outsiders. They are doing this to us. We are the victims and everything wrong with our lives can be explained by them being out to get us.

Why does that rhetoric sound so familiar?

I guess one never knows about some people until they show their colors.

They are not out to get us but they are a problem.

This is China's track record in my lifetime.

1957 to 1958 Asian flu that killed a lot of people. I was very ill with it age 10. This was an avian influenza virus that spread to humans from China. The cause far to many Chinese have chickens in their houses.

1968 the H3N2 inflenza epidemic from China, The same causation as the episode 10 years before. I had that one as well and it was very miserable. Both these epidemics killed millions.

2003 Sars. This very dangerous Coronavirus again originated in China. This very dangerous virus had the same causation is the current Covid 19. It originated in a Chinese wet market. Fortunately it was contained in Asia and eradicated in 2004.

2009 H1N1 Mexico from pig to human transmission.

Now we have this very dangerous Covid 19 coronavirus originating in a Chinese wet market in December 2019 and now ravaging the world.

Now tell me this is not a problem. How many more problems to you want to be let loose on the world from that region? I'm going to say enough is enough and the world needs to take action before we have something worse.

And I included that article and a response to illustrate what is out there.

Those illustrations may not be politely put, but there is a problem here that needs to be addressed and action taken against the responsible party. I think it is obvious who that party is. The world can not let this continue to occur, otherwise something even worse will happen and what we have now is horrendous. Just ask governor Cuomo.

 

[JerryLove]

They are not out to get us but they are a problem.

This is China's track record in my lifetime.

1957 to 1958 Asian flu that killed a lot of people. I was very ill with it age 10. This was an avian influenza virus that spread to humans from China. The cause far to many Chinese have chickens in their houses.

1968 the H3N2 inflenza epidemic from China, The same causation as the episode 10 years before. I had that one as well and it was very miserable. Both these epidemics killed millions.

2003 Sars. This very dangerous Coronavirus again originated in China. This very dangerous virus had the same causation is the current Covid 19. It originated in a Chinese wet market. Fortunately it was contained in Asia and eradicated in 2004.

2009 H1N1 Mexico from pig to human transmission.

Now we have this very dangerous Covid 19 coronavirus originating in a Chinese wet market in December 2019 and now ravaging the world.

How about MERSA? That seems to have come from the US.

I noticed H1N1 wasn't China.
Where was MERS?
Ebola?

What part of China did those come from?

Yes. Asian flu was terrible. It was a long time ago; but it wasn't the biggest killer of the 20th century. What about the Spanish Flu? What about HIV? Those both killed more. Are they from China?

How about Mad Cow?
Smallpox?
Polio?
Measles?
Dengue Fever?
Zika?
Malaria?

And I can't help but notice: Something like half the world's population is SE Asia. Is it surprising that many diseases would come from there?

Now tell me this is not a problem. How many more problems to you want to be let loose on the world from that region? I'm going to say enough is enough and the world needs to take action before we have something worse.

There are certainly problems. Where you fail (ignoring the racism) is
1) Establishing that China has some special status as a problem (notice all those diseases and pandemics not from China).
2) Establishing that errors on China's part somehow make our own misbehavior OK.

Those illustrations may not be politely put, but there is a problem here that needs to be addressed and action taken against the responsible party. I think it is obvious who that party is. The world can not let this continue to occur, otherwise something even worse will happen and what we have now is horrendous.

Again that's classic "outsider" rhetoric used to justify any number of atrocities through history.

Just ask governor Cuomo.

I seem to recall Cuomo being very concerned with Trump. He seems to be concerned that we threw out the Pandemic playbook, failed to get adequate medical equipment, didn't treat the disease seriously until it spread, lacked national direction (well, helpful direction), etc. None of which are China's fault.

 

[shadyJ]

How about MERSA? That seems to have come from the US.

I noticed H1N1 wasn't China.
Where was MERS?
Ebola?

What part of China did those come from?

Yes. Asian flu was terrible. It was a long time ago; but it wasn't the biggest killer of the 20th century. What about the Spanish Flu? What about HIV? Those both killed more. Are they from China?

How about Mad Cow?
Smallpox?
Polio?
Measles?
Dengue Fever?
Zika?
Malaria?

And I can't help but notice: Something like half the world's population is SE Asia. Is it surprising that many diseases would come from there?


There are certainly problems. Where you fail (ignoring the racism) is
1) Establishing that China has some special status as a problem (notice all those diseases and pandemics not from China).
2) Establishing that errors on China's part somehow make our own misbehavior OK.


Again that's classic "outsider" rhetoric used to justify any number of atrocities through history.

I seem to recall Cuomo being very concerned with Trump. He seems to be concerned that we threw out the Pandemic playbook, failed to get adequate medical equipment, didn't treat the disease seriously until it spread, lacked national direction (well, helpful direction), etc. None of which are China's fault.

I don't see TLS Guy letting Trump off easy for this. But China does have a large share of the blame for this outbreak. First they tried to silence the medical professionals who raised the alarm about this thing, allowing it to spread much wider and faster than it would have otherwise. And then when they acknowledged that they indeed had a problem, they were never open about the severity of it, and they still aren't. That has hurt a lot of people inside and outside their borders. What's worse is that the wet markets that led to the creation of this disease are back in business. If there was anywhere that China should have used an iron fist, it should have been to shutdown these markets for good. Not just to prevent a health hazard, but to end the inhumane treatment of these animals. Call me racist if you must, but they way these animals are treated are disgusting, and it should revolt anyone with a sense of empathy.

 

[Kvn_Walker]

You guys (well most of you) all make good points. It goes without saying that none of the parties involved are innocent but there are varying degrees of guilty.

 

[JerryLove]

I don't see TLS Guy letting Trump off easy for this. But China does have a large share of the blame for this outbreak. First they tried to silence the medical professionals who raised the alarm about this thing, allowing it to spread much wider and faster than it would have otherwise. And then when they acknowledged that they indeed had a problem, they were never open about the severity of it, and they still aren't. That has hurt a lot of people inside and outside their borders. What's worse is that the wet markets that led to the creation of this disease are back in business. If there was anywhere that China should have used an iron fist, it should have been to shutdown these markets for good. Not just to prevent a health hazard, but to end the inhumane treatment of these animals. Call me racist if you must, but they way these animals are treated are disgusting, and it should revolt anyone with

I won't. It's not a criticism of China that made the other post racist.

Your points aren't generally wrong ("though inhumane treatment of animals seems universal so a glass-house issue").

China put an entire region in forced quarentine and didn't keep that a secret.
China did supply mortality figures.

I'm not sure you can say that they never became and still aren't open about the severity. We can argue nuance of transparency, and you aren't wrong about their initial attempt to contain the information (much like the US spent months spreading misinformation); but the fact that the US has more cases than China reflects how theeffective they have been at taking the virus seriously.

China has been donating medial equipment to other countries to help fight this. Chinese doctors have been out campaigning (for example) in favor of face masks. The Chinese put out some very detailed transmission analysis reports quite some time back (I remember one on transmission on a bus to people more than 6' away).

And unlike the US, China didn't have any time to react. They were ground zero.

So yes. Much like overuse and misuse of antibiotics in the US for both livestock and people; China has things they should change but haven't that help create pandemic dangers. That the Chinese government is overly oppressive (at least by western standards) and under transparent is a given.

My attack on TLS's Xenophobic rhetoric is not an attempt to defend China.

Go back to his first detailed posts on it. See when they were. See how much information they have. Now tell me why the US government wasn't doing anything about that. Tell me why S.Korea succeeded where we failed.

I mean: Florida is one of the first states hit and a tourist destination. We still aren't under a shelter in place order (that kicks in tonight at midnight).

(I wonder if we might not have gotten more information, whether through channels or around them, had we not removed the CDC expert from Bejing)

 

[highfigh]

Check your facts again Herbu. He down played the seriousness of this disease and this can be clearly demonstrated by the fact that he wanted to return the work force by Easter. He had no clue how serious this was and he just recently reversed his decision.

But it was OK for DiBlasio to downplay the seriousness?

De Blasio admonishes critics not to 'look back' on his previous efforts to downplay coronavirus

With the Big Apple now the epicenter of the coronavirus outbreak in the United States, New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio said Sunday that critics shouldn't be "focusing" on "anything looking back on any level of government right now" -- including his previous statements urging his constituents...

www.foxnews.com

 

[highfigh]

How about MERSA? That seems to have come from the US.

I noticed H1N1 wasn't China.
Where was MERS?
Ebola?

What part of China did those come from?

Yes. Asian flu was terrible. It was a long time ago; but it wasn't the biggest killer of the 20th century. What about the Spanish Flu? What about HIV? Those both killed more. Are they from China?

How about Mad Cow?
Smallpox?
Polio?
Measles?
Dengue Fever?
Zika?
Malaria?

And I can't help but notice: Something like half the world's population is SE Asia. Is it surprising that many diseases would come from there?


There are certainly problems. Where you fail (ignoring the racism) is
1) Establishing that China has some special status as a problem (notice all those diseases and pandemics not from China).
2) Establishing that errors on China's part somehow make our own misbehavior OK.

MERSA-

"In 1961, the first known MRSA isolates were reported in a British study, and from 1961 to 1967, infrequent hospital outbreaks occurred in Western Europe and Australia"

Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"In the 1940s, some 60 years after the discovery of the bacterium S. aureus, doctors began treating staph infections with penicillin. But the overuse and misuse of the drug helped the microbes evolve with resistance to penicillin by the 1950s."

What Is MRSA?

Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus, or MRSA, is a strain of staph bacteria that is resistant to the antibiotics normally used to treat such infections. In 1961, British scientists discovered MRSA; it was first seen in the U.S. in 1968,

www.livescience.com

Small Pox-

History of Smallpox | Smallpox | CDC

History of Smallpox

www.cdc.gov

"The origin of smallpox is unknown. Smallpox is thought to date back to the Egyptian Empire around the 3rd century BCE (Before Common Era), based on a smallpox-like rash found on three mummies. The earliest written description of a disease that clearly resembles smallpox appeared in China in the 4th century CE (Common Era). Early written descriptions also appeared in India in the 7th century and in Asia Minor in the 10th century."

Polio-

History of polio - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Ancient Egyptian paintings and carvings depict otherwise healthy people with withered limbs, and children walking with canes at a young age.[4] It is theorized that the Roman Emperor Claudius was stricken as a child, and this caused him to walk with a limp for the rest of his life."

Measles-

Measles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

":Most estimates based on modern molecular biology place the emergence of measles as a human disease sometime after AD 500[140] (the former speculation that the Antonine Plague of AD 165–180 was caused by measles is now discounted), although recent[when?] studies suggest measles potentially first appeared as early as the 4th century BC.[141][142] The first systematic description of measles, and its distinction from smallpox and chickenpox, is credited to the Persian physician Rhazes (860–932), who published The Book of Smallpox and Measles."

Dengue Fever/Zika Virus-

Zika virus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Zika virus is related to the dengue, yellow fever, Japanese encephalitis, and West Nile viruses.[6] Since the 1950s, it has been known to occur within a narrow equatorial belt from Africa to Asia. "

Malaria-

History of malaria - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"The first evidence of malaria parasites was found in mosquitoes preserved in amber from the Palaeogene period that are approximately 30 million years old.[8] Human malaria likely originated in Africa and coevolved with its hosts, mosquitoes and non-human primates."

The fact that half of the Worlds' population lives in SE Asia makes this OK?

 

[highfigh]

I hope this isn't accurate-

 

[highfigh]

I won't. It's not a criticism of China that made the other post racist.

Your points aren't generally wrong ("though inhumane treatment of animals seems universal so a glass-house issue").

China put an entire region in forced quarentine and didn't keep that a secret.
China did supply mortality figures.

I'm not sure you can say that they never became and still aren't open about the severity. We can argue nuance of transparency, and you aren't wrong about their initial attempt to contain the information (much like the US spent months spreading misinformation); but the fact that the US has more cases than China reflects how theeffective they have been at taking the virus seriously.

China has been donating medial equipment to other countries to help fight this. Chinese doctors have been out campaigning (for example) in favor of face masks. The Chinese put out some very detailed transmission analysis reports quite some time back (I remember one on transmission on a bus to people more than 6' away).

And unlike the US, China didn't have any time to react. They were ground zero.

So yes. Much like overuse and misuse of antibiotics in the US for both livestock and people; China has things they should change but haven't that help create pandemic dangers. That the Chinese government is overly oppressive (at least by western standards) and under transparent is a given.

My attack on TLS's Xenophobic rhetoric is not an attempt to defend China.

Go back to his first detailed posts on it. See when they were. See how much information they have. Now tell me why the US government wasn't doing anything about that. Tell me why S.Korea succeeded where we failed.

I mean: Florida is one of the first states hit and a tourist destination. We still aren't under a shelter in place order (that kicks in tonight at midnight).

(I wonder if we might not have gotten more information, whether through channels or around them, had we not removed the CDC expert from Bejing)

Why are you defending China, a country that has a long history of human rights abuse (at best) and intolerance of the truth? Don't bother turning this around to mean the US, either- we're tired of you doing that.

 

[Trell]

Why are you defending China, a country that has a long history of human rights abuse (at best) and intolerance of the truth? Don't bother turning this around to mean the US, either- we're tired of you doing that.

Yeah, can't let facts get in the way of the new Trump narrative to deflect from his own responsibility in (non)handling of the pandemic.

 

[JerryLove]

Why are you defending China, a country that has a long history of human rights abuse (at best) and intolerance of the truth? Don't bother turning this around to mean the US, either- we're tired of you doing that.

I'm not defending anyone. I'm attacking racism and xenophobia. If you think providing honest facts is "defense", you should look closely at the dishonesty it's responding to.

Why are you defending racism and xenophobia?

Don't bother redirecting. We are tired of you doing that.