TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
From what I read in the UK they don't yet know if the person was even vaccinated at all or had underlying health issues.
As I stated, that information has not been released. Whether it will be or not, I have no idea. We are early in this yet. The important thing to understand is that this mutant strain is spreading like the fiercest forest fire. There is no doubt about that. It is an axiom of infectious disease that high transmissibility poses a much greater risk to public health than virulence.

So the public do need to pay attention.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
The South Africans say that the case mortality of the Covid-19 variant is 0.5%. That is low compared to Delta. However if a lot of people catch it, that is a lot of death.

The Europeans say, especially Norway, that the age ratio of the new variant has inverted. They are seeing cases mainly in the under 40 age group and not he older age group. This may just be that the younger age group are mixing in greater numbers.

Preliminary lab data seems to indicate that T-cell immunity from vaccines is holding up well.

There is some preliminary evidence that this new virus is able to suppress antibody production by the host. If this proves to be so, then T-cell response will be key.

It seems likely this omicron variant is going to prove to be a very different virus than what we have been dealing with the last few years.

There is so much we have to learn about this. So advice is probably going to keep changing rapidly as more is known and the fog clears. This is not going to help public messaging.

So we really don't have a good handle at all on the rapidly changing picture. Really all we know for sure is that it is highly infectious, the rest is surrounded by dense fog at the moment.

Just one last point. I should remind members what a case is. A case is an individual who presents for treatment, and the cause of his ailment is found to be Covid-19 omicron variant. It is not someone who shows positive, as for instance picked up by contact tracing.
 
davidscott

davidscott

Audioholic Ninja
The South Africans say that the case mortality of the Covid-19 variant is 0.5%. That is low compared to Delta. However if a lot of people catch it, that is a lot of death.

The Europeans say, especially Norway, that the age ratio of the new variant has inverted. They are seeing cases mainly in the under 40 age group and not he older age group. This may just be that the younger age group are mixing in greater numbers.

Preliminary lab data seems to indicate that T-cell immunity from vaccines is holding up well.

There is some preliminary evidence that this new virus is able to suppress antibody production by the host. If this proves to be so, then T-cell response will be key.

It seems likely this omicron variant is going to prove to be a very different virus than what we have been dealing with the last few years.

There is so much we have to learn about this. So advice is probably going to keep changing rapidly as more is known and the fog clears. This is not going to help public messaging.

So we really don't have a good handle at all on the rapidly changing picture. Really all we know for sure is that it is highly infectious, the rest is surrounded by dense fog at the moment.

Just one last point. I should remind members what a case is. A case is an individual who presents for treatment, and the cause of his ailment is found to be Covid-19 omicron variant. It is not someone who shows positive, as for instance picked up by contact tracing.
Thanks for the update, Doc. So, for now even if you have had 2 shots and a booster you should still exercise caution by wearing masks indoors. I do that because I'm over 65. Looks like we might have to get booster shots for a while. Thanks again.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks for the update, Doc. So, for now even if you have had 2 shots and a booster you should still exercise caution by wearing masks indoors. I do that because I'm over 65. Looks like we might have to get booster shots for a while. Thanks again.
I hope we don't have to use boosters more often than once a year or less. A lot depends on what type of immunity that omnicron variant produces. It is so infectious everyone in the world will get exposed to it, even with precautions.

The unknown issue is just what clinical picture it produces and in who. Right now we just don't know if it is the devil or the saving angel. However, at this time caution should be the watchword. If it turns out to be bad and run riot before a high number of people have maximum protection there is NO pulling it back.

So I agree that extreme measures when we look back through the retrospectoscope, may look in hindsight, to have been unnecessary.
However, the retrospectoscope always has 20/20 vision!
 
davidscott

davidscott

Audioholic Ninja
I hope we don't have to use boosters more often than once a year or less. A lot depends on what type of immunity that omnicron variant produces. It is so infectious everyone in the world will get exposed to it, even with precautions.

The unknown issue is just what clinical picture it produces and in who. Right now we just don't know if it is the devil or the saving angel. However, at this time caution should be the watchword. If it turns out to be bad and run riot before a high number of people have maximum protection there is NO pulling it back.

So I agree that extreme measures when we look back through the retrospectoscope, may look in hindsight, to have been unnecessary.
However, the retrospectoscope always has 20/20 vision!
Thanks again.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
The Supreme Court did not block the New York state vaccine mandate.


This is somewhat interesting because those arguing the lack of a religious exception (as in the New York case) have a stronger argument than those who broadly argue a substantive due process right.

First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Fourteenth Amendment: "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" (Fifth Amendment: "No person shall be . . . deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law")(The Fifth Amendment applies to the Federal Government, whereas the Fourteenth Amendment applies to state governments)

In other words, the First Amendment is a much stronger legal argument than substantive due process (at least at this Supreme Court) because it can be tied directly to the text of the Constitution, but it still wasn't good enough, even for this Supreme Court. Also, even if the First Amendment argument had prevailed, the decision would most certainly have been narrow, and it basically would have said that the law needs to include an exception for those who can demonstrate a "real" religious reason they don't want to get vaccinated in order to survive a First Amendment challenge (again, this didn't actually happen).

I suppose some will continue to assert that vaccine mandates are "unconstitutional" in their own mind, but that's meaningless if no court actually agrees:

>>>Not Breaking News: Mandatory Vaccination Has Been Constitutional for Over a Century
The same arguments we see today thus failed over a century ago in Jacobson. . . .


Abundant pre-COVID-19 precedent likewise holds that the argument “that [a state] mandatory vaccination requirement violates substantive due process . . . is foreclosed by” Jacobson. Phillips v. City of New York, 775 F.3d 538, 542 (2d Cir. 2015).<<<

 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I hope we don't have to use boosters more often than once a year or less. A lot depends on what type of immunity that omnicron variant produces. It is so infectious everyone in the world will get exposed to it, even with precautions.

The unknown issue is just what clinical picture it produces and in who. Right now we just don't know if it is the devil or the saving angel. However, at this time caution should be the watchword. If it turns out to be bad and run riot before a high number of people have maximum protection there is NO pulling it back.

So I agree that extreme measures when we look back through the retrospectoscope, may look in hindsight, to have been unnecessary.
However, the retrospectoscope always has 20/20 vision!
I found this opinion piece interesting.
If we continue waiting for more evidence about omicron, it will already be too late | CBC News
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
I suppose it could be worse, but the predicted rapid spread of omicron and somewhat modest effectiveness of 2 vaccine doses (70% against hospitalization) is not exactly comforting:

>>>By the numbers: The South African analysis, by Discovery Health, found that the risk of hospital admission among adults diagnosed with the Omicron variant is 29% lower than it was during South Africa's first wave of infections in 2020. The researchers adjusted their calculations by vaccination status.
  • Their vaccine effectiveness analysis included more than 211,000 positive COVID-19 test results, from which 41% were from adults who'd received two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine.
  • During the current Omicron wave, the two-dose regimen was 70% effective against severe disease requiring hospital admission. (Vaccine effectiveness is measured against the same risk in the unvaccinated.)
Yes, but: It also found that two doses of the Pfizer vaccine are only 33% effective against infection from Omicron.

The big picture: A dramatic surge in cases could still overwhelm our burnt-out health system if even a small percentage require hospital care. . . .

The bottom line: "Frankly we don't have enough reliable, robust data at this point to give a clear direction as to what this will look like in the weeks to months ahead," said Michael Osterholm, director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota.

  • But there is certainly a strong possibility that a lot of Americans are about to get sick — soon.<<<


Edit: added "bottom line" from article
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
I realize this is science by press release, but the latest news on the Pfizer pill looks promising:

>>>Pfizer's updated results for its experimental treatment for Covid-19 showed it cut the risk of hospitalization or death by 89% if given to high-risk adults within a few days of their first symptoms, the company announced in a news release Tuesday. . . .

After a month of follow-up, the study found five hospitalizations and no deaths among 697 people who received the drug within the first three days of symptoms. Among 682 who received placebo, 44 were hospitalized, including 9 who died. All of the adults in this study were unvaccinated.

If given within the first five days of symptoms, the efficacy was similar: 88%. These results hold up against a similar announcement from the company last month, when not all the data had come in yet. . . .

The company says it expects the drug to retain activity against variants like Omicron -- and it appears to do so in lab tests -- because the drug blocks an enzyme involved in viral replication. This is different from the spike protein on the virus' surface, whose numerous mutations have escalated the global concern around the variant. <<<


This NYT article on antiviral drugs is somewhat interesting.

>>>Pfizer’s drug is next to enter the spotlight. Its origins reach back nearly two decades, to when Pfizer researchers were searching for a drug that could fight the coronavirus that caused SARS. They decided to build a molecule that could block an essential viral protein, known as a protease. Proteases act like molecular scissors, cutting long molecules into pieces that help build new viruses.

The drug, originally called PF-00835231, lodged in the protease like a piece of gum crammed between scissor blades. PF-00835231 proved effective against SARS when given intravenously to rats.

The SARS epidemic ended before the Pfizer could launch a clinical trial. But after the Covid-19 pandemic hit last year, researchers at the company pulled the drug off the shelf to try against SARS-CoV-2.

They modified it to work against the protease of the new coronavirus and tinkered with the molecule so it would work as a pill. Paxlovid, as Pfizer has branded the drug, came out of clinical trials last month with terrific initial results: 85 percent effectiveness if taken within five days of the onset of symptoms. It remains to be seen if the number stays that high in the final analysis. . . .

At the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research, researchers are trying to build a pill that will work against all coronaviruses. They are looking for targets common to all coronavirus proteases. At the start of the pandemic last year, they screened 41 million compounds with the help of a computer trained to recognize potential drugs.

They ran experiments on the 800 best candidates and ended up with just a few top contenders, which they are now testing in mice.

Lt. Col. Brandon Pybus, one of the Walter Reed researchers, said that using artificial intelligence shaved many years off the project. But because the team is making a drug from scratch, they will not be able to move as fast as Merck or Pfizer toward an authorized pill. “It could be a matter of a few years, if resources permit,” he said.<<<

 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Nice summary of the action of anti-viral protease inhibitors. Thanks.
Pfizer's updated results for its experimental treatment for Covid-19 showed it cut the risk of hospitalization or death by 89% if given to high-risk adults within a few days of their first symptoms, the company announced in a news release Tuesday.
The key issue is that this drug must be given within a few days of the first symptoms. Without enough readily available rapid virus test kits, this new drug will not be nearly as effective. If sick patients demand this drug when they are already hospitalized, it's too late. Perhaps it can be more effective if combined with other treatments.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Nice summary of the action of anti-viral protease inhibitors. Thanks.
The key issue is that this drug must be given within a few days of the first symptoms. Without enough readily available rapid virus test kits, this new drug will not be nearly as effective. If sick patients demand this drug when they are already hospitalized, it's too late. Perhaps it can be more effective if combined with other treatments.
I thought I read the other day that the government is planning to work with pharmacies to streamline the process so people can get a test and get a prescription for the pills right away through the pharmacies. However, I couldn't find the article when I searched earlier today, so I may be remembering it wrong (either that, or my google skills suk).
 
davidscott

davidscott

Audioholic Ninja
Probably will hit a million dead sometime next year. I read somewhere the 1 in 100 people over 65 have now died of Covid. Scary.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
This is the latest news from South Africa.

Their week on week excess deaths to November 18 doubled in a week. Remember this was before they realized there was a new problem.

They have just released data on just over 200,000 cases.

The bottom line is that two doses of Pfizer vaccine is 33% effective against omicron causing symptomatic disease, and 70% effective against serious disease requiring hospital admission.

For the Delta variant it was 80% effective against symptomatic disease and 93% effective against serious disease.

This shows the seriousness of the situation. As this is so infectious the serious disease cases will rise.

No information yet on three doses of vaccine in the real world.

This omicron strain is so infectious the everyone one in the world, except hermits will be exposed to this variant sooner rather than later.

The best number to watch, I think will be rises in excess deaths.

Clearly this new situation has a high likelihood of overwhelming every health system on Earth.

The WHO sent a warning to all countries today to be prepared. It was given by a plain speaker Irishman Dr Ryan, assistant director.

“When a variant like this emerges, it probably has spread in advance of it being detected, and blanket travel bans give a false sense of security,” said Ryan.
“They destroy economies. They have a negative impact on transparency, and we would advise governments to use a more nuanced, more risk-managed and targeted approach,” said Ryan.
“Countries have a right to defend and protect themselves. They have a right to control their borders. They do it for all kinds of other reasons. But it must be done in a way that maintains to the maximum extent possible movement of people, individual human rights and with due regard for the economic impacts that such measures have on countries,”

By Tuesday morning, Omicron accounted for 10% of global COVID-19 infections and this was growing fast, according to Professor Penny Moore, South African Research Chair of Virus-Host Dynamics.

Good news from Pfizer. The MSD drug is 40% effective at best, so limited help.

Unless the pfizer drug has any significant lethality, the FDA need to give it an EUA without delay. The is No time for bureaucratic navel contemplating.

Pharmacies need to be able to dispense this with just a positive test and no need for a prescription, as getting the drug in early is vital.

There needs to be massive government action to distribute the drug widely ASAP.

This is the fastest moving situation since the start of the pandemic, so stay tuned.
 
Last edited:
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
This is the latest news from South Africa.

Their week on week excess deaths to November 18 doubled in a week. Remember this was before they realized there was a new problem.

They have just released data on just over 200,000 cases.

The bottom line is that two doses of Pfizer vaccine is 33% effective against omicron causing symptomatic disease, and 70% effective against serious disease requiring hospital admission.

For the Delta variant it was 80% effective against symptomatic disease and 93% effective against serious disease.

This shows the seriousness of the situation. As this is so infectious the serious disease cases will rise.

No information yet on three doses of vaccine in the real world.

This omicron strain is so infectious the everyone one in the world, except hermits will be exposed to this variant sooner rather than later.

The best number to watch, I think will be rises in excess deaths.

Clearly this new situation has a high likelihood of overwhelming every health system on Earth.

The WHO sent a warning to all countries today to be prepared. It was given by a plain speaker Irishman Dr Ryan, assistant director.

“When a variant like this emerges, it probably has spread in advance of it being detected, and blanket travel bans give a false sense of security,” said Ryan.
“They destroy economies. They have a negative impact on transparency, and we would advise governments to use a more nuanced, more risk-managed and targeted approach,” said Ryan.
“Countries have a right to defend and protect themselves. They have a right to control their borders. They do it for all kinds of other reasons. But it must be done in a way that maintains to the maximum extent possible movement of people, individual human rights and with due regard for the economic impacts that such measures have on countries,”

By Tuesday morning, Omicron accounted for 10% of global COVID-19 infections and this was growing fast, according to Professor Penny Moore, South African Research Chair of Virus-Host Dynamics.

Good news from Pfizer. The MSD drug is 40% effective at best, so limited help.

Unless the pfizer drug has any significant lethality, the FDA need to give it an EUA without delay. The is No time for bureaucratic navel contemplating.

Pharmacies need to be able to dispense this with just a positive test and no need for a prescription, as getting the drug in early is vital.

There needs to be massive government action to distribute the drug widely ASAP.

This is the fastest moving situation since the start of the pandemic, so stay tuned.
Although I'd rather hear good news, your candor is appreciated.

There's no point in slipping into the sweet seduction of denial.
 
R

rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
I saw in the news the Regeneron antibody treatment doesn't work on Omicron.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Here is today's update.

The Omicron variant is spreading fast. In London, the cases are dobling almost daily and faster than every two days, according to professor Chris Whitty.

I watched the news conference from 10 downing Street at 11:OO AM CST, which was 5:00 PM GMT.

I will paste the essence of what the chief medical officer, professor Chris Whitty had to say.

Omicron could be a dangerous disease even if it is milder, because the variant is spreading more quickly, Professor Chris Whitty has said.
In a press conference from Downing Street on Wednesday night, Professor Whitty, urged “really serious caution” over reports that omicron was leading to fewer hospitalisations than delta.
His comments were made after the first major real-world data from South Africa suggested that the country’s omicron wave had led to 23 per cent fewer hospitalisations than when the delta variant was dominant.
However, Prof Whitty said that levels of immunity and vaccination, as well as population age, were very different between the two counties.
He said: “The first caution on this is simply a numerical one – if the rate of hospitalisation were to halve but you're doubling every two days, in two days you're back to where you were before you actually had the hospitalisation.
“If the peak of this is twice as great, then halving the size of the hospitalisation rate, you still end up in the same place. And this peak is going very fast.”
He added: “The second point I wanted to make, which I'm not sure it's fully been absorbed by everybody, is that the amount of immunity in South Africa for this wave – because of a prior delta wave and vaccination – is far higher than it was for their last wave. And therefore the fact that there is a lower hospitalisation rate is unsurprising.”

Prof Whitty said: “That doesn't mean that there isn't some degree of slightly milder disease, that is possible. But I just think there's a danger people have over-interpreted this to say, this is not a problem and what are we worrying about?
“I want to be clear, I'm afraid this is going to be a problem. Exact proportions of it, of course, South African scientists and UK scientists and scientists globally are trying to determine at the moment.”
Prof Whitty said that “all the things that we do know [about omicron] are bad" warning that the variant was moving at a “phenomenal pace”.

That is extremely sobering. In the US we have nowhere near enough urgency about this.

There is a massive booster effort under way in the UK. About half the people over 18 are now boosted, and the age of boosting has now dropped to 12. According to Boris Johnson the proportion of the population with three doses is double the EU and US. Boosting is key at the moment.

Professor Whitty advised only absolutely necessary social mixing and contact until everyone is boosted.

This most likely to turn out to be a bad situation, but time will tell.

He was asked when this crises might end. He said not until we can have everyone is immunized with a multivalent Sars vaccine. He thought that would be ready at the earliest sometime 2023. The problem is this Covid-19 is showing far too much vaccine escape. My personal fear, is that Omicron may not be the last to show significant vaccine escape in the next 18 to 24 months.

Having said all that, I do think we are in better shape than a year ago. We have better treatments, and now any virals coming soon. My fear is that viruses become resistant to antiviral agents fast. So that is why, when treating HIV for instance, it takes a cocktail of antivirals that attack replication at different points. I will be surprised if this is not the case with Covid-19.

The big advantage we have now is that omnicron has far from total vaccine escape, which gives hope that with aggressive use of the vaccines we have now, we can keep things from becoming catastrophic while we improve our armaments.

SO GET BOOSTED ASAP. If anyone happens to be an unvaccinated COVIDIOT, then please review your position DBQ, and call up your sparse neurons, involved in logical decision making.

Changing gears, MPs have been informed that this Sars Covid-19 virus most likely escaped from a Chinese lab, and that there is a good probability that this is an engineered virus.

A laboratory leak is now the more likely origin of Covid, MPs have heard, because after two years of searching an animal host has never been found.

Speaking to the Science and Technology Select Committee, Dr Alina Chan, a specialist in gene therapy and cell engineering at MIT and Harvard, said there was also a risk that Covid-19 was an engineered virus.

Dr Chan, said: “I think the lab origin is more likely than not. Right now it’s not safe for people who know about the origin of the pandemic to come forward. But we live in an era where there is so much information being stored that it will eventually come out.

“We have heard from many top virologists that a genetically engineered origin is reasonable and that includes virologists who made modifications to the first Sars virus.

“We know this virus has a unique feature, called the furin cleavage site, and without this feature there is no way this would be causing this pandemic.

“A proposal was leaked showing that EcoHealth and the Wuhan Institute of Virology were developing a pipeline for inserting novel furin cleavage sites. So, you find these scientists who said in early 2018 ‘I’m going to put horns on horses’ and at the end of 2019 a unicorn turns up in Wuhan city.”

The furin cleavage point on Covid-19 is part of the spike protein which helps it to enter cells.

Spike proteins are little grappling hooks which lock onto receptors on human cells. They have two sections, a binding section and a cell-entry section.

Once attached, the virus makes use of the enzyme furin - which is present in human cells - to snip away the bound section, leaving a space for the cell-entry section of the spike protein to fuse with the cell membrane and get inside. It is the reason Covid-19 is so infectious.

My personal hunch all along has been that this was not a virus that arose in nature. There have just been far too many features that just do not add up. This virus has not been found in any significant quantity in nature, which it would have by now, and it has features never seen or envisaged before.

I think this view is rapidly gaining round, and fast becoming, if not already the majority view.
 
Kvn_Walker

Kvn_Walker

Audioholic Field Marshall
I was skeptical of the lab origin theory at first, but the way in which it has mutated has changed my mind also. It's almost like every 12 months a dominant strain emerges that will wreak havoc for the next year.

I wish all nations would agree to end all bioweapon testing full-stop, but that will never happen. Humans are a species hell bent on destroying themselves.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Here is today's update.

The Omicron variant is spreading fast. In London, the cases are dobling almost daily and faster than every two days, according to professor Chris Whitty.
If there are 1,000 new omicron cases per day in the U.S. (just a SWAG for purposes of discussion*) right now and it doubles every two days, the number of new cases would exceed 500 million cases in about 38 days (doubling every day cuts the 38 days in half, of course. That obviously cannot happen because there are not that many people in the U.S. (for purposes of discussion I'm leaving out the possibility that the same people could be infected twice in this time frame)

I realize the curve has to start flattening before we get to 100% of the population being infected, and it's hard to know where the curve is going to go based on early, relatively small numbers. Still, it seems as if we could hit an omicron saturation point of sorts in the U.S. quite quickly.


*I intentionally picked a low number. Its actually 3,000-4,000 omicron cases per day right now if the CDC estimate of 3% of new cases is correct:

>>>The omicron Covid-19 variant first detected in southern Africa about a month ago now makes up about 3% of cases sequenced in the U.S., according to data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. . . . The U.S. is reporting nearly 120,00 new cases per day, based on a seven-day average of data compiled by Johns Hopkins University . . .<<<

 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Any idea how this new strain has become much more serious than initially thought?
 
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