panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Spartan
Clearly you are recouping very well from that very tiny, tiny prick in your arm :p Hopefully you don't feel too much nauseated :D
Nope. This sort of thing never really has much of an effect on me. I had to get a few additional vaccines when I went to work at a hospital in 2013 and it was pretty much the same. Sore arm the day of and a bit the next. End of day, nothing at all.
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Field Marshall
WAAYYYYY ahead of you. Well, yesterday at least.



Not so bad now and fading with each hour. Pretty much the norm for vaccines for me.
It interesting how different people react to the shots or any shots. My first shot, had a sore arm at the injection point for a day. The second shot, by the time I walked from the shot area to my car, i had no soreness at all. And didn't have any side effects at all. The wife on her first shot had a sore arm for a full day. Her second is this coming sat.
 
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Kvn_Walker

Kvn_Walker

Audioholic General
I got Pfizer #2 Friday afternoon. Didn't have a problematic weekend at all. Saturday evening I was fatigued and had minor chills, but that was it (other than the soreness at the shot location but that's a given).
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Chief
Testing of adjusted Moderna and Pfizer vaccines is starting. Perhaps the T cell response from prior infection or prior vaccinations will be sufficient and the adjusted vaccines won't be needed.

I'm not sure what to think about the recent new reports out of Israel (based on a very small sample size) stating the the South Africa variant may be able to evade (to some extent) the Pfizer vaccine (2nd link below). The recent news reports concerning infections with the SA variant in Isreal seem to be somewhat inconsistent with the prior trial results in South Africa. Maybe it's just a statistical fluke. Perhaps @Swerd has some insights?

>>>Studies getting underway this month include a few hundred people, very different than the massive testing needed to prove the original shots work. Scientists must make sure the mRNA substitution doesn’t trigger different side effects.

On the protection side, they’re closely measuring if the updated vaccine prompts the immune system to produce antibodies — which fend off infection — as robustly as the original shots do. Importantly, lab tests also can show if those antibodies recognize not just the variant from South Africa but other, more common virus versions, too.

Some good news: Antibodies aren’t the only defense. NIH researchers recently looked at another arm of the immune system, T cells that fight back after infection sets in. Lab tests showed T cells in the blood of people who recovered from COVID-19 long before worrisome variants appeared nonetheless recognized mutations from the South African version. Vaccines trigger T cell production, too, and may be key to preventing the worst outcomes.<<< (emphasis added)



>>>The South African variant, B.1.351, was found to make up about 1% of all the COVID-19 cases across all the people studied, according to the study by Tel Aviv University and Israel’s largest healthcare provider, Clalit.

But among patients who had received two doses of the vaccine, the variant’s prevalence rate was eight times higher than among the unvaccinated - 5.4% versus 0.7%.

This suggests the vaccine is less effective against the South African variant, compared with the original coronavirus and a variant first identified in Britain that has come to comprise nearly all COVID-19 cases in Israel, the researchers said.<<<


 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Testing of adjusted Moderna and Pfizer vaccines is starting. Perhaps the T cell response from prior infection or prior vaccinations will be sufficient and the adjusted vaccines won't be needed.
To test the immune system responses to vaccines, antibody titers, T cell response tests, as well as clinical data on how many vaccinated people were infected by which virus strains are needed. Anything less than all of those is inadequate. Doing this is not easy or fast.
I'm not sure what to think about the recent new reports out of Israel (based on a very small sample size) stating the the South Africa variant may be able to evade (to some extent) the Pfizer vaccine (2nd link below). The recent news reports concerning infections with the SA variant in Isreal seem to be somewhat inconsistent with the prior trial results in South Africa. Maybe it's just a statistical fluke. Perhaps @Swerd has some insights?

But among patients who had received two doses of the vaccine, the variant’s prevalence rate was eight times higher than among the unvaccinated - 5.4% versus 0.7%.

This suggests the vaccine is less effective against the South African variant, compared with the original coronavirus and a variant first identified in Britain that has come to comprise nearly all COVID-19 cases in Israel, the researchers said.<<<
The problem with that study is that it looked at only about 400 people who had received two vaccine doses and who subsequently were infected, among the millions (?) of vaccinated Israelis. The investigators then compared the prevalence of the South African strain (B.1.351) among these people (5.4%) vs. the prevalence of that strain in infections among people who were not vaccinated (0.7%). That Reuters article never said how many people those percentages represented. I did the simple arithmatic – 5.4% of 400 and 0.7% of 400, becomes 22 people vs. 3. When I see small numbers like 22 vs. 3 among the millions of vaccinated people, I can't buy the statement that one really is eight times larger than the other. If you looked at ten different samples 400 people, would you always get similar numbers? I doubt it.

I think looking at 400 people is too small a sample to allow statistically significant conclusions. How big is the estimated sampling error for that population of people? A common statistical standard is an estimated confidence interval (CI) of at least 95% that the sample is large enough to avoid sampling error. Any decent statistician would be familiar with how to perform that analysis. If a study cannot meet this minimum standard, then they can only conclude what their findings might suggest. They would need to look at 4,000 people or more, before they could make stronger worded conclusions, such as indicate or demonstrate.

It may very well be that 400 vaccinated and infected people were all they had among the millions (?) of vaccinated Israelis. If so, their conclusions are overstated. If more than 400 were available, why didn't they include them in their study?

Maybe the Israeli investigators did include proper statistical analysis in their publication. I hope so. But if Reuters or other news journals want to report about these topics, and get it right, they must also consult with statisticians who are experienced at designing or interpreting these kinds of clinical studies.
 
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S

Speedskater

Audioholic Chief
Just saw this:
The Food and Drug Administration said Tuesday it is asking states to temporarily halt using Johnson & Johnson’s Covid-19 vaccine after six people in the U.S. developed a rare blood clotting disorder.

The FDA said the recommendation is “out of an abundance of caution.”
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
All that is OK. As long as you don't start growing ovaries, you'll be fine.
OK. Let me rephrase that…

As long as you don't start growing ovaries, you'll be fine. (Assuming you still have testicles.)
– or –​
As long as you don't start growing a mustache. (Assuming you already have ovaries.)
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Chief
OK. Let me rephrase that…

As long as you don't start growing ovaries, you'll be fine. (Assuming you still have testicles.)
– or –​
As long as you don't start growing a mustache. (Assuming you already have ovaries.)
Before getting my first jab I had to fill out a questionnaire that included the following Yes or No questions:

1) Are you pregnant?

2) Are you breastfeeding?

The form did not have a "Does not apply" option, so I had to state for the record that the answer to both questions is "No." (I can't help but wonder how many men in their 50s like me answer "Yes" to either or both of these questions)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
I have not made a post on this thread for some time, as there has been no firm data to report. Now things are changing fast. There does seem to be a definite association between mDNA vaccines and PF4 antibodies. Those are Platelet Factor 4 antibodies. The result if a condition known as thrombotic thrombocytopenic purpura, or TTP.

Now I will do my best to explain all this in as simple terms as possible.

First I have to explain the current state of play in the world.

Our vaccine program is progressing well, but not well enough to prevent serious outbreaks like in Michigan.

Europe is chaotic for multiple reasons.

India and some other countries are in dire straights. India which was to supply a good deal of the world, is understandably using all vaccine produced in india for domestic consumption. The WHO are not happy, but that is the way I think it has to be.

The UK seems to be doing very well. The early decision to space vaccine doses by 90 days, manufacturer's objections notwithstanding, appears to have been a good one. Imperial college feel that most parts, if not all of the UK has reached herd immunity. There are large parts of the country that have not seen a Covid death in weeks.

I mention this now, as it has a bearing on some decisions that are going to have to be made, and are being made going forward. This in the context of the information I am about to attempt to explain to you.

Cases of cavernous sinus thrombosis, and other thrombotic events started to appear in Germany and Scandinavia 6 to 14 days after immunization after receiving the Astrazeneca vaccine. These events were rare at an incidence of 4 in a million doses, with a fatality of one in a million doses.
Since clotting problems are not uncommon, initially it was hard to separate these cases from the noise, and no mechanism of causation was apparent initially. However it was quickly realized that these cases were associated with a precipitous drop in platelet count and bleeding at the same time as clotting in the vessels.

It soon became apparent that these changes had remarkable similarity to a condition known as HITT. That is Heparin Induced Thrombocytopenia. Heparin is a commonly used anticoagulant in hospitals, and this reaction has been known for some time. It is common in many institutions to do platelet counts twice a week in patients receiving heparin.

Since this reaction to the Astrazeneca vaccine, and now the J & J vaccine, is now known as VITT. (Vaccine Induced Thrombotic Thrombocytopenia).

Both conditions generate the PF4 antibody that cause platelet clumping, and therefore clotting and in severe cases catastrophic intravascular clotting.

So the condition can be recognized by ELISA antibody test to the PF4 antigen, in cases of low platelet count in symptomatic patients after vaccination.
In addition the D-Dimer test can be used to assess the degree of intravascular clotting.

The treatment is anticoagulation with an anticoagulant other than Heparin. IVIG, which is gamma globulin should also be administered as soon as possible.

It seems this adverse reaction is commoner in younger patients and females. It also seems to have a somewhat different prevalence in different countries, being more common in Germany, and Scandinavia than the UK. It is possible that this is related to the prevalence of Covid-19 in the community.

The question that is not solved, is what is the component in the vaccine causing this pathological immune reaction? The PF4 antibody levels are higher in VITT than HITT. The former having an antibody optical density of 1.6, whereas VITT cases have an optical density of 2.9 to 3.8.

So the problem becomes what to advise. For most age groups the risk of dying from Covid-19 are considerably higher than dying of VITT. In addition this pandemic is causing economic havoc, and restrictions on populations have to be wound down and soon end. In addition when cases are high then other medical conditions can not be treated in a timely manner. That includes cancer cases and urgent cardiovascular disease. Cancer mortality is on the rise due to this pandemic. So this pandemic is causing excess deaths other than by deaths from infection. So continuing vaccination at pace is an utmost priority.

Sir David Spiegelhalter of Cambridge University has done a detailed risk benefit analysis for the UK. He finds that the risk benefit of vaccination with the Astrazeneca vaccine is positive for all those over 30 years of age, but starts to reverse for those under 30. Accordingly the UK stopped administering the Astrazeneca vaccine to those under 30.

This does remain a significant issue as regards immunizating poorer, less well developed countries. The Astrazeneca vaccine is being produced at cost. The mRNA vaccines are more costly to produce, and have the cold storage problem. Pfizer have just hit the EU with a large price increase.
So it looks as if mDNA vaccines are going to have to do the heavy lifting over most of the world. Lastly countries with poor resources will have a hard time and recognising, and especially treating VITT, as HVIG is scarce, and thousands of dollars a dose.

In many jurisdictions there is the obvious fear of increasing vaccine resistance, delaying exit from the grip of this pandemic. In the UK at least, this has not occurred to a significant degree. Most of the UK public seem to have taken a realistic view of the situation, and a desperate to escape the restrictions of the pandemic.

Lastly the actual element in these mDNA vaccines, which is likely to include Sputnik 5 by the way, is not known. Likely suspects are antibodies to the spike antigen and the adenovirus. The former is not likely, or we would see it with the mRNA vaccine. I should say there is at this time some very low level concern about them also. The most likely suspect is the adenovirus vector. This is because this platelet problem has been seen with adenovirus infections occasionally.

So to end, more understanding as to the causative factors need to be understood. This especially applies to prevention and better treatment. Also it is likely that certain individuals are predisposed to the problem. If that is so, then detecting those individuals would be extremely helpful.
Urgent research into nano shields not requiring high degrees of refrigeration would also be helpful. The Pfizer vaccine no longer requires a two stage compressor freezer. This is vital for third world distribution.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I was able to move up my AZ vaccine (1st jab) appointment from May 5th to April 21st. :)
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Spartan
Up late with Head cold like symptoms a little lite cough seems mostly like from say if one has sinusitis. Now I do have Allergies. So can not really say those symptoms are from that COVID-19 2nd shot.
Yep. Allergies hit me like a ton of bricks this year. Ironic that I got my first covid dose the day before they decided to go nuts.

But, all my kids feel like crap too so I know allergies are to blame. This sucks.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
There does seem to be a definite association between mDNA vaccines and PF4 antibodies. Those are Platelet Factor 4 antibodies. The result if a condition known as thrombotic thrombocytopenic purpura, or TTP.
Thanks for the update on this very rare but serious side effect of vaccine-induced thrombocytopenia and thrombosis (VITT).

It originally was noticed in Germany, Norway and Denmark with the AstraZeneca vaccine, but now has appeared in the USA with the J&J vaccine as well. Yesterday, the US FDA announced that the J&J vaccine was put on temporary hold while a review was conducted by an advisory board. The findings of VITT help by offering a medical treatment for this. It should also help speed the FDA's review.

If VITT is indeed associated with the use of adenovirus vectors in vaccines, then the Sputnik 5 vaccine may very well share this. If Russian medical groups come forward with their experiences on VITT and Sputnik 5, it would help the whole world. However, if Putin steps in, I won't expect any frankness.

For those who may be interested, here are those two recent publications on this topic in the New England Journal of Medicine:
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Yes, it's all about probabilities.

Compare how many vaccinated people get sick with Covid-19 (about 0.01%) or without the vaccine (about 2%). I'm not sure those numbers are correct, but if they are, getting vaccinated decreases your chances of getting sick by at least 200-fold, maybe more.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Ninja
As of today, Health Canada officials have authorized the Astra-Zeneca vaccine (Covaxin made in India) to all adults no matter age or sex. The very remote risk of vein thrombosis found after compiling all info received on given doses in several countries made them change their decision.

I strongly suspect that the rather young women who suffered from the thrombosis problem were mostly the ones using birth control pills, which strongly increase the risk of being affected by such blood circulation problem.
 
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