highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Here is a damning editorial from this weekend's JAMA about Trump's handling of the crisis.

I'm very worried about the next few months. The Virus is getting out of control in most of Europe now. I fear far more serious trouble than we have had so far in the coming months.
If people would wear a mask and pay a bit of attention to any symptoms they may have, this wouldn't be a problem. It would also help if college students had a tiny particle of brain, but they are in school to learn, regardless of their thinking that they know how things should be done. COVID parties aren't uncommon and they're causing universities to close their campuses and/or dorms to many students (UW- Madison, is one of them, because of a party like this). The age range of the most vulnerable has shifted- it's no longer the oldest people who are most likely to become infected.

According to this link from June, 40% of the COVID deaths were at nursing homes.


For all of the posturing by Gov Cuomo, it took until a month ago for California to overtake New York as the top state for COVID deaths. LA county alone has more than half of the population of the whole state of NY.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Here is a damning editorial from this weekend's JAMA about Trump's handling of the crisis.

I'm very worried about the next few months. The Virus is getting out of control in most of Europe now. I fear far more serious trouble than we have had so far in the coming months.
The only thing I can think of that Trump could have done to make matters worse than he did was start a federal program to achieve herd immunity.

He should have named the Warp Speed program Maximum Readiness, or something like that, but I have to admit it’s the only thing he’s done for C19 response that I can think of which has had any positive impact at all.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
The only thing I can think of that Trump could have done to make matters worse than he did was start a federal program to achieve herd immunity.

He should have named the Warp Speed program Maximum Readiness, or something like that, but I have to admit it’s the only thing he’s done for C19 response that I can think of which has had any positive impact at all.
How about 'Warped Spud'?
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
If people would wear a mask and pay a bit of attention to any symptoms they may have, this wouldn't be a problem. It would also help if college students had a tiny particle of brain, but they are in school to learn, regardless of their thinking that they know how things should be done. COVID parties aren't uncommon and they're causing universities to close their campuses and/or dorms to many students (UW- Madison, is one of them, because of a party like this). The age range of the most vulnerable has shifted- it's no longer the oldest people who are most likely to become infected.
I'm not sure how it works, but I know "Covid Inn" (the space set up for on campus quarantine) is a pretty suck place to hang out (you are essentially imprisoned for 2 weeks). The other option (which most will take if they can) is to go home, which is also not the greatest option.
Hopefully the word will get out that Covid quarantine is no fun and students will decide that they would rather avoid the risk, but who knows!

@TLSGuy ,do you know if there is any effort being made to perform post-covid examinations of people of different ages to evaluate risk of lasting complications? I would guess that if someone is asymptomatic the risk is very low, but I also understand that some mental illness is from flu, but we don't have a easy way to link them.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
I'm not sure how it works, but I know "Covid Inn" (the space set up for on campus quarantine) is a pretty suck place to hang out (you are essentially imprisoned for 2 weeks). The other option (which most will take if they can) is to go home, which is also not the greatest option.
Hopefully the word will get out that Covid quarantine is no fun and students will decide that they would rather avoid the risk, but who knows!

...but I also understand that some mental illness is from flu, but we don't have a easy way to link them.
I seriously doubt most students would take any warning as serious.

Never heard about mental illness from flu. Details?
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Spartan
The only thing I can think of that Trump could have done to make matters worse than he did was start a federal program to achieve herd immunity.
The term herd immunity, has been misused by both the right-wing, the Trump administration, and the press. They seem to believe that it means don't bother with vaccinations. Let the population acquire immunity the hard way, the slow, dangerous, and more lethal way.

I've always understood herd immunity to mean becoming immune by recovering from an earlier infection, or through vaccination.

Here's the Wikipedia link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

Herd immunity (also called herd effect, community immunity, population immunity, or social immunity) is a form of indirect protection from infectious disease that occurs when a sufficient percentage of a population has become immune to an infection, whether through vaccination or previous infections, thereby reducing the likelihood of infection for individuals who lack immunity.​
 
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panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Ninja
The term herd immunity, has been misused by both the right-wing, the Trump administration, and the press. They seem to believe that it means don't bother with vaccinations. Let the population acquire immunity the hard way, slow, dangerous, and more lethal.

I've always understood herd immunity to mean becoming immune by recovering from an earlier infection, or through vaccination.

Here's the Wikipedia link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

Herd immunity (also called herd effect, community immunity, population immunity, or social immunity) is a form of indirect protection from infectious disease that occurs when a sufficient percentage of a population has become immune to an infection, whether through vaccination or previous infections, thereby reducing the likelihood of infection for individuals who lack immunity.​
Agreed. That's how I always understood herd immunity to work.

The thing that the Trump camp isn't talking about is that to achieve herd immunity WITHOUT a vaccine means a lot more people will die.

Natural infection
Herd immunity can also be reached when a sufficient number of people in the population have recovered from a disease and have developed antibodies against future infection. For example, those who survived the 1918 flu (influenza) pandemic were later immune to infection with the H1N1 flu, a subtype of influenza A. During the 2009-10 flu season, H1N1 caused the respiratory infection in humans that was commonly referred to as swine flu.

However, there are some major problems with relying on community infection to create herd immunity to the virus that causes COVID-19. First, it isn't yet clear if infection with the COVID-19 virus makes a person immune to future infection.

Research suggests that after infection with some coronaviruses, reinfection with the same virus — though usually mild and only happening in a fraction of people — is possible after a period of months or years. Further research is needed to determine the protective effect of antibodies to the virus in those who have been infected.

Even if infection with the COVID-19 virus creates long-lasting immunity, a large number of people would have to become infected to reach the herd immunity threshold. Experts estimate that in the U.S., 70% of the population — more than 200 million people — would have to recover from COVID-19 to halt the epidemic. If many people become sick with COVID-19 at once, the health care system could quickly become overwhelmed. This amount of infection could also lead to serious complications and millions of deaths, especially among older people and those who have chronic conditions.



Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/herd-immunity-and-coronavirus/art-20486808
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
The term herd immunity, has been misused by both the right-wing, the Trump administration, and the press. They seem to believe that it means don't bother with vaccinations. Let the population acquire immunity the hard way, the slow, dangerous, and more lethal way.

I've always understood herd immunity to mean becoming immune by recovering from an earlier infection, or through vaccination.

Here's the Wikipedia link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

Herd immunity (also called herd effect, community immunity, population immunity, or social immunity) is a form of indirect protection from infectious disease that occurs when a sufficient percentage of a population has become immune to an infection, whether through vaccination or previous infections, thereby reducing the likelihood of infection for individuals who lack immunity.​
By this definition, vaccination is not required (it is an or statement). So if there is no vaccine and virtually everyone gets the flu, the result would be we (everyone left standing) would have achieved herd immunity!

I remember an interview where some expert/epidemiologist commented that (paraphrasing) "yes, we can achieve herd immunity w/o vaccinations, but the death toll would be staggering"!

So, I think it is possible, but really not something to strive for!

However, if immunity is short-lived, it may be difficult to maintain herd immunity under any circumstance!
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I seriously doubt most students would take any warning as serious.

Never heard about mental illness from flu. Details?
.

 
Teetertotter?

Teetertotter?

Junior Audioholic
Look at the thousands of ADULTS[ 30 - 70] paying no attention to COVID-19. The only way to make them understand is to suffer COVID and the unknown future effects. They want to risk their lives, so be it. Long story short.

We and family are limiting what we do, so be it.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Ninja
Look at the thousands of ADULTS[ 30 - 70] paying no attention to COVID-19. The only way to make them understand is to suffer COVID and the unknown future effects. They want to risk their lives, so be it. Long story short.

We and family are limiting what we do, so be it.
It's very sad that people in this country (and others) don't care about an issue unless it affects them directly.

There are so many stories from nurses/doctors talking about patients that, up until the end, thought the whole thing was a hoax. How can you be dying from something and still think it's made up? The amount of stupid/denial for that is staggering.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Spartan
200,000 deaths from COVID-19… and the infections & deaths continue.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
.

Feeling blue and exhausted after almost any illness is likely- I don't know why they would assign any significance to the flu but the second link- I would think any major illness could cause problems in a fetus, especially a respiratory infection that would affect O2 saturation. You could have concluded that detail in your other post.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Yea but, you gotta admit....America is great.....again.:(;):(;):(
And the idiot students had COVID parties because of Trump? Get a grip! People are choosing to not wear masks because of their own ignorance- if they take his word for anything, it's their own fault.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Feeling blue and exhausted after almost any illness is likely- I don't know why they would assign any significance to the flu but the second link- I would think any major illness could cause problems in a fetus, especially a respiratory infection that would affect O2 saturation. You could have concluded that detail in your other post.
I couldn't have because I would not be as quick to dismiss "feeling blue and exhausted" as insignificant.
The way I look at it is we are sacks of chemicals and if the balance of those chemicals gets too far off kilter, it gets serious.
We see people have nervous breakdowns and PTSD, which might be considered "self-induced" in the sense that it is a healthy person attempting to respond to a set of stressful circumstances that challenge the limits of our natural ability to process stimuli. I would say (in my layman's understanding) that this might be the result of our bodies generating a semi-toxic cocktail of chemicals that shifts this bio-chemical balance. I'm not sure how else you would explain the durability that these breakdowns often cause.
My take would be that the flu and our biological response to it via the auto-immune system shifts this chemical balance such that the stresses required to induce mental illness are reduced (IOW, you don't need to be in the midst of a horrid war) to develop issues.
In the article, they mention the production of Cytokines as an issue which may be more unique to flu.

Your first statement:
Feeling blue and exhausted after almost any illness is likely- I don't know why they would assign any significance to the flu...
If you are making the case that other illnesses may well have a similar effect, I would be inclined to agree, but that does not mean the flu does not result in biological responses that can compromise the stability of our mental health.
My inclination is to trust the doctors that believe there is an association between the two.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
I couldn't have because I would not be as quick to dismiss "feeling blue and exhausted" as insignificant.
The way I look at it is we are sacks of chemicals and if the balance of those chemicals gets too far off kilter, it gets serious.
We see people have nervous breakdowns and PTSD, which might be considered "self-induced" in the sense that it is a healthy person attempting to respond to a set of stressful circumstances that challenge the limits of our natural ability to process stimuli. I would say (in my layman's understanding) that this might be the result of our bodies generating a semi-toxic cocktail of chemicals that shifts this bio-chemical balance. I'm not sure how else you would explain the durability that these breakdowns often cause.
My take would be that the flu and our biological response to it via the auto-immune system shifts this chemical balance such that the stresses required to induce mental illness are reduced (IOW, you don't need to be in the midst of a horrid war) to develop issues.
In the article, they mention the production of Cytokines as an issue which may be more unique to flu.

Your first statement:

If you are making the case that other illnesses may well have a similar effect, I would be inclined to agree, but that does not mean the flu does not result in biological responses that can compromise the stability of our mental health.
My inclination is to trust the doctors that believe there is an association between the two.
I have to think that a person't diet has a lot to do with how they handle stresses- far too many Americans eat garbage that's sold as 'food'- if you sit and watch people at a large store, in a crowded area or on the news, the average girth has doubled. Granted, people didn't have as much to eat in the past, but they also didn't have drive-thru fast food joints, rampant cardiac illness, Diabetes, Liver and Kidney disease and other ailments that come from bad diet. Add the lack of parents who teach their kids how to deal with things and we have....the present. PTSD from wars and being near horrific events is one thing, but people who are cyber-bullied killing themselves? That's just sad. Why weren't they taught to express their feelings and ignore comments by others? Why do they have to take everything so seriously when reading comments about themselves?

Chemical imbalance aside, which is a valid reason for odd/bad behavior, I think more people need to work on themselves. The rise in crime and violent outbursts are a good indication that people can't control themselves- I'm not inclined to believe that it's a mass chemical imbalance.

WRT FLU and COVID, the Wiki entry about Cytokenes contains this-

"Cytokine storms may have been the cause of severe adverse events during a clinical trial of TGN1412. Cytokine storms are also suspected to be the main cause of death in the 1918 "Spanish Flu" pandemic. Deaths were weighted more heavily towards people with healthy immune systems, because of their ability to produce stronger immune responses, with dramatic increases in cytokine levels. Another example of cytokine storm is seen in acute pancreatitis. Cytokines are integral and implicated in all angles of the cascade, resulting in the systemic inflammatory response syndrome and multi-organ failure associated with this intra-abdominal catastrophe.[31] In the COVID-19 pandemic, some deaths from COVID-19 have been attributable to cytokine release storms.[32][33][34] "
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
PTSD from wars and being near horrific events is one thing, but people who are cyber-bullied killing themselves? That's just sad. Why weren't they taught to express their feelings and ignore comments by others? Why do they have to take everything so seriously when reading comments about themselves?
I hadn't even thought of cyberbullying, but I agree with you that the victims usually do not have a good grounded core. Maybe because it attracts the most attention, but when I think of cyberbully suicides, I think of middle school girls.
With my own daughter, I noticed through that age that she suppressed a lot of her own unique wit and individuality (which I cherished). I asked her about it and she said that people at school were just mean and it was easiest to just blend in. It kind of broke my heart to hear this from her, but I thought about it and had to reluctantly agree with her. All I could do was assure her that somewhere around being a HS Jr to college, her unique perspective would be viewed favorably as creative individuality (and, happily it did work out that way).
Maybe I should have, instead, encouraged her to swim against the current, but I have seen how the middle school kids (especially girls) will pile on!
It is interesting, I generally consider women better enlightened than men at matters of society/community, but through middle school, they seem to experiment with some appalling extremes!
 
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