Conservatives Trying to Ruin More American Jobs (aka Listen to Craig234 lecture)

Status
Not open for further replies.
ForMiseri

ForMiseri

Audioholic Intern
Having just quit my job at Wal Mart due to low earnings, no healthcare insurance, ignorant and foul treatment by managers/co-managers, crappy to no usefull equipment to work with, no other benefits such as holidays off with pay nor do you get compensated with anything extra for working on a holiday, filthy working conditions not to mention the nasty crapheads who think nothing of running you over with a cart and calling you every rotten name in the book I can tell you all, what the country needs is far less division and more empathy and compassion for each other. Although I hold a master degree in social work I certainly do not consider myself a conservative or a liberal. I sit here in a mostly rural part of PA with a fancy degree from a prestigious NYC University, and I am unable to earn anything near a living wage. In all of the local industrial parks in the area, the corporations get corporate welfare in the form of not paying taxes for basically anything. On the other hand all workers must pay a $52.00 right to work tax (the amount varies from locale to locale)It was $10.00 per year. Most of these business employ both legal and illegal immigrants. When I went to look into applying for some type of healthcare I was told I was earning too much money for any type of assistance. ($138.00 per week) When the CEO's of these corporations walk away with huge retirement packages and perks even if they perform poorly, THAT is a problem! Not everyone is lucky enough to have never had to work in conditions so poor that even a union would help. I feel sorry for the poor fool who said they did not want to be putting a roof on in 90 degree heat so let the Mexican do the job. There are plenty of us already born here in the USA who would gladly do that job. Air conditioned offices are great until the unionized linemen go out on strike during a brownout My grandfather began in the local mines here as a breaker boy and later down in the mines themselves. Wanna try that? Especially back then when there was no union at all. 12 and 15 hour days were the norm.
 
C

craigsub

Audioholic Chief
Facts sometimes are tough ....

1. 9 of the top 10 in income growth states are "RED" states, while 6 of the bottom 10 are Blue States, including California. 49 out of 50 states increased in income. Delaware was the lone exception.

2. Net manufacturing continues to grow across the country as a whole. In December, 2000, 135,000,000 people had jobs. In May, 2006, 144,000,000 people had jobs.

Looking at the two together, and the sky is not falling.:)
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
craigsub said:
Facts sometimes are tough ....

1. 9 of the top 10 in income growth states are "RED" states, while 6 of the bottom 10 are Blue States, including California. 49 out of 50 states increased in income. Delaware was the lone exception.

2. Net manufacturing continues to grow across the country as a whole. In December, 2000, 135,000,000 people had jobs. In May, 2006, 144,000,000 people had jobs.

Looking at the two together, and the sky is not falling.:)
.....wouldn't matter if the sky WAS falling, Craigsub....the guys who used to have 50K a year jobs would be protected by the grill vent-fan-scoop-structure as they flipped burgers.....
 
C

craigsub

Audioholic Chief
mulester7 said:
.....wouldn't matter if the sky WAS falling, Craigsub....the guys who used to have 50K a year jobs would be protected by the grill vent-fan-scoop-structure as they flipped burgers.....
People lose jobs. Businesses Fail. The fact is, more people get jobs than lose them, and more businesses succeed than fail. This is why both the number of jobs and the average income have both risen consistently since 2000 ... and 1990, and 1980 ...

A prediction, in 2016, there will be 160,000,000 people working, wages will have grown by a net of 10% after adjusting for inflation, and there will be people still complaining about how all the good jobs are gone.
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
craigsub said:
there will be people still complaining about how all the good jobs are gone.
.....and a sizable number of the good jobs WILL be gone, Craigsub....we watch the middle class shrink every time the republicans are in and watch documentaries to prove the type jobs that replaced the loss....and it's true, just as many or more jobs can be reported at the end of a republican reign, but the population is steadily growning, and more low paying no-benefit jobs are actually the increase....both republican and Democratic persuasions want to make money, sure, but it's obvious to me which party is dedicated to it....Craigsub, don't you own a car agency/dealership?....hey, certainly no fault there, I'm sure you've put in many hours, but doesn't it pay you to vote republican for the REAL tax cuts with your probably larger income?......
 
Last edited:
C

Craig234

Audioholic
Mulester

FYI, the Bush tax borrowing (he has not passed a tax cut yet - reducing current taxes by increasing borrowing, making owe the same plus interest is not a tax cut) benefits primarily the truly wealthy, with income measured in multiple millions per year - the typical car dealerhsip owner is not in that stratosphere.

The 'merely wealthy' - mid to high six-figure incomes, say - are actually largely getting milked, and I'm at a loss to understand why they are not fighting it.

Indeed, the Bushies know you can't get blood from a turnip, and while they're cutting funding for government programs for the poor, which has a big price in the lost productivity from these people if more were invested in them, including education, there's just not much tax money to go after there to transfer to the top - so they're going after the upper middle class, the opposite of what most Americans, who like the middle class, favor.

David Cay Johnston's book is an eye-opener on the way the most wealthy are benefitting at the expense of most Americans.
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
Craig234 said:
FYI, the Bush tax borrowing (he has not passed a tax cut yet - reducing current taxes by increasing borrowing, making owe the same plus interest is not a tax cut) benefits primarily the truly wealthy, with income measured in multiple millions per year - the typical car dealerhsip owner is not in that stratosphere.

The 'merely wealthy' - mid to high sex-figure incomes, say - are actually largely getting milked, and I'm at a loss to understand why they are not fighting it.

Indeed, the Bushies know you can't get blood from a turnip, and while they're cutting funding for government programs for the poor, which has a big price in the lost productivity from these people if more were invested in them, including education, there's just not much tax money to go after there to transfer to the top - so they're going after the upper middle class, the opposite of what most Americans, who like the middle class, favor.

David Cay Johnston's book is an eye-opener on the way the most wealthy are benefitting at the expense of most Americans.
.....Craig234, Craig's everywhere, this is a very good post, imo....but I was told by a pretty reliable source, there's a ladder of tax-cuts per income....I was told $200,000 per individual was where the real cuts start....sure, the stinking rich get the best....good post, I guess some throats got cut, and the moderately rich done fell downstairs into the middle class, huh?.....

Craig234 said:
Indeed, the Bushies know you can't get blood from a turnip, and while they're cutting funding for government programs for the poor, which has a big price in the lost productivity from these people if more were invested in them, including education, there's just not much tax money to go after there to transfer to the top - so they're going after the upper middle class, the opposite of what most Americans, who like the middle class, favor
.....outstanding.....
 
Last edited:
C

craigsub

Audioholic Chief
mulester7 said:
.....and a sizable number of the good jobs WILL be gone, Craigsub....we watch the middle class shrink every time the republicans are in and watch documentaries to prove the type jobs that replaced the loss....and it's true, just as many or more jobs can be reported at the end of a republican reign, but the population is steadily growning, and more low paying no-benefit jobs are actually the increase....both republican and Democratic persuasions want to make money, sure, but it's obvious to me which party is dedicated to it....Craigsub, don't you own a car agency/dealership?....hey, certainly no fault there, I'm sure you've put in many hours, but doesn't it pay you to vote republican for the REAL tax cuts with your probably larger income?......
A few responses are warranted here...

1. We are not losing "middle class jobs". Here are actual employment statistics since 1950, for each decade ...

1950 - 59,000,000
1960 - 66,000,000
1970 - 79,000,000
1980 - 99,000,000
1990 - 119,000,000
2000 - 136,000,000
2006 - 144,000,000

The total labor force available grew from 62.3 million in 1950 to 150.7 million in 2006. Every decade, emplyment grew. US Population grew from 150 million in 1950 to 297 million today. This means population increased by 98 % while employment increased by 144 %.

In every decade, NET wages also grew. For example, from 1993 to 2003, wages rose an average of 38 percent while inflation increased by 21.5 % ... All these figures are directly sourced from the Bureau of Labor and Statistics.

NOW ... let us look at taxes paid in this country. Everytime there is a tax cut, the "wealthy" will see the most benefit per individual. The reason ? They pay the most taxes per individual.

These numbers are directly from the IRS ... The first column is the percentile of wage earners, the second is the percentage of total Federal taxes paid. These numbers are from 2004. The third column is the percentage of total income each group earned as income.

Top 1 % ........ 34.27 % (17.53 % of income)
Top 5 % ........ 54.36 % (31.99 % of income)
Top 10% ....... 65.84% (43.11 % of income)
Top 50% ....... 96.54% (86.19 % of income)
Bottom 50% ... 3.46 % (13.81 % of income)

If you look at the bottom 50% ... and a weighted average, the average person in the top 1 % pays 495 (34.27/3.46*50) times the income tax as does the average person in the bottom 50%. The top 1% also earns 63 (17.53/13.81*50) times the GROSS income as does the bottom 50%.

This means each dollar of income the top 1 % makes is taxed at appx. 8 TIMES the tax rate as the bottom 50%.

In other words, when looking at facts, the "rich" pay more than their fair share.

Now ... you decided to get personal, and bring into this my businesses. Yes, I am a partner in 4 dealerships. Growing up, My father made an income (in the 1970's) which, when adjusted for inflation would be $32,000 per year today.

Look this up, and you will see we were directly in the middle class.

For 24 years since finishing college (which I paid for myself), I have purchased these dealerships. I never got a dime from any govt. agency, period. Last year, we sold $37,000,000 in new vehicles alone. We have 117 people on our payroll, and all our vehicles are domestic products.

I personally have purchased 4 domestic vehicles in the past 12 months.

Two of these dealerships were purchased during the Clinton years, and two during the Bush years.

What most people don't "get" is success is not determined by any politician. It is determined by hard work. Business owners don't fret over who won an election. Government give us obstacles, and we overcome them.

Taxes are an obstacle. Regulations are, too. We know this, and we overcome it, every day.

Here is the list of the wealthiest 10 senators (source, CBO from financial statements posted by each individua) ...

John Kerry, D-Massachusetts: $163,626,399
Herb Kohl, D-Wisconsin: $111,015,016
John Rockefeller, D -West Virginia: $81,648,018
Jon Corzine, D-New Jersey: $71,035,025
Dianne Feinstein, D-California: $26,377,109
Peter Fitzgerald, R-Illinois: $26,132,013
Frank Lautenberg, D-New Jersey $17,789,018
Bill Frist, R-Tennessee: $15,108,042
John Edwards, D-North Carolina: $12,844,029
Edward Kennedy, D-Massachusetts: $9,905,009

Amazingly, 8 of the top ten are democrats.

John Kerry's Taxes in 2003 ? $102,000 (source, the IRS). Pretty good for a guy with $163,000,000 ... I can guarantee you I paid a lot more than 0.626 % of my net worth in taxes. I would wager YOU did, too... :)
 
Last edited:
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
.....so we see the real Craigsub's posting abilities, huh?....great post....for a republican, haha....but, the top 1% of the work force DESERVES to pay 495 times more tax than someone flippin' burgers, 'cause they're CEO's and such, making 5 to 20 million dollar bonuses....you think we don't get quarterly reports at Union Pacific?....Richard Davidson, CEO of UP last year, got right at 15 million to go buy Christmas presents with on top of his half million monthly and stock options......Craig, I remember well when sparky first took office, it was reported bills passed relatively immediately concerning taxes....it was reported to me that the top 1% of the work force was favored to the tune of "88" b-b-"BILLION" that reporting year of 2000 in April of 2001....income taxes, personal, not business taxes......I have a good friend locally who is doing well in real estate who is a staunch republican....he takes the attitude he had to work hard for it, so doesn't feel it's fair for him to have to pay more than what he considers his "fair share" percentage....well, to him, and to you, Craig, I say, there's simply not enough rungs on the ladder for everyone to be able to climb....and some have it bad enough, they can't even find the blamed ladder to stare at....the rich certainly "can" be ruled by greed....but the philosophies of a party can be ruled by greed also....it's being played out right before our very eyes.....

.....edit....I guess it could be said I feel rather strongly about this.....
 
Last edited:
C

craigsub

Audioholic Chief
mulester7 said:
.....so we see the real Craigsub, huh?....great post, for a republican, haha....but, the top 1% of the work force DESERVES to pay 495 times more tax than someone flippin' burgers, 'cause they're CEO's and such, making 5 to 20 million dollar bonuses....you think we don't get quarterly reports at Union Pacific?....Richard Davidson, CEO of UP last year, got right at 15 million to go buy Christmas presents with on top of his half million monthly and stock options......Craig, I remember well when sparky first took office, it was reported bills passed relatively immediately concerning taxes....it was reported to me that the top 1% of the work force was favored to the tune of "88" b-b-"BILLION" that reporting year of 2000 in April of 2001....income taxes, personal, not business taxes......I have a good friend locally who is doing well in real estate who is a staunch republican....he takes the attitude he had to work hard for it, so doesn't feel it's fair for him to have to pay more than what he considers his "fair share" percentage....well, to him, and to you, Craig, I say, there's simply not enough rungs on the ladder for everyone to be able to climb....and some have it bad enough, they can't even find the blamed ladder to stare at....the rich certainly "can" be ruled by greed....but the philosophies of a party can be ruled by greed also....it's being played out right before our very eyes.....

.....edit....I guess it could be said I feel rather strongly about this.....
Mulester... Why is it guys like you feel justified in insulting others ? Everything I posted was merely facts from credible sources. Now you know the "real Craigsub?". It would be illuminating if you would elaborate on this little gem. What IS the "real" Craigsub ?

You are giving John Kerry a total pass for paying less than 1 % of his assets in taxes. His assets, by the way, are (primarily) from 2 marriages. If you looked into this more deeply, you would find that John Kerry and his wife paid a lower percentage of their income in taxes than did the average family making $40,000 (Kerry-Heinz, in total, paid 11% of their gross income in taxes).

Yet you now wish to denigrate the CEO of Union Pacific. The fact is, his bonus was less 1% of Union Pacific's Income last year. He also paid $5,700,000 in Federal taxes on that bonus.

How anyone could look at the Union Pacific example vs. the John Kerry example, and decide Kerry deserves a pass because he has "D" next to his name while the UP CEO deserves scorn is mystifying.

Mulester ... I was not complaining about the fact that the top 1 % pay 495 times the taxes as the bottom 50 %, on average.

What does bother me is your assertion that the top 1% does not pay enough. Putting it into simple dollar terms ... for each $1000 in income from the bottom 50%, they pay $50 in taxes on their income, or 5% ... The top 1 %, for each $1000 in income, pays $400, or about 40%, in taxes. What about that is unfair ?

You also ignore the fact that the top 1% is paying a higher % of the total tax burden today, under "Sparky", in both absolute dollars AND in percentages, than did the top 1% did under President Clinton. These are facts, Mulester, not opinion. The IRS archives all this information. Feel free to look it up.
 
C

Craig234

Audioholic
Craigsub

Craigsub,

Your post has a good quality: it has some substance to try to support your views.

However, it hist about every pothole on the right-wing road on the issue, closely following the arguments made by paid propagandists for the right.

I'm not sure if that's because you have gotten a lot of your info from right-wing sources or what, but it's the case.

Normally, I'd lay out what I see as the 'correct' context, including the facts.

But I'm going to try something a little different, which just happens to also save me a couple hours re-compiling the info.

Instead, I'll just describe some issues with your topics, and ask you the relevant questions, so you can get your own answers.

Your first point is that the number of people working has grown every decade since the 1950's. Well and good, but it says nothing on the issue you made a claim on, about whether the 'good' jobs are being replaced with lower-paying ones.

An interesting side topic on your mention that the number of people working far outstrips the population growth is that you seem to hold it up as an unqualified good; in fact that's debatable, representing a large growth in two-income households over the years.

While that is good in general for society's overall productivity, there's a real price in 'quality of life' issues, children not having a stay at home parent, and other 'infrastructure' family issues, and much of the increase productivity goes to the very top's pockets. For things like home prices, which are determined largely by competitive wealth in the community, when your neighbors have more money by becomeing two-income households, home prices go up and you either get a cheaper house or you become a two-income household, too, to afford the same hourse as before - not exactly an attractive development or increase in wealth.

You also mention the significant increase in average wages, but because you fail to break it down by income bracket, it's meaningless for measuring how the typical AMerican did, like saying that the average neighbor's wealth skyrockets because Bill Gates moved to the neighborhood. During the democratic period FDR-LBJ, it would have been ok, because all brackets went up comparably; that's no longer the case.

OK, heck, I've abandoned the approach I described and am spending the 2 hours of my evening recompling info. Here goes. I'll use pictures.

I mentioned the history of income since FDR - let's start with a long-term view of the typical American versus the top 1%.



(Note - this is a pattern I'll point out consistently - that the bottom 99% increases that did occur almost excatly map to the democratic era FDR-LBJ).

Next, you pointed out that average *wages* increased - besides the point I already made about not breaking that out by income bracket, there's also an issue that wages are the primary income for most Americans, but they do not reflect the typical income for the very wealthy.

But let's look at a chart comparing the average wage increases in real dollars, and contrast it with the increasing productivity.



Historically, they went up together. Since they aren't in the post-Reagan years, where is all that wealth going?

How the typical hourly worker is:



(Note the increases under the democrats through LBJ - and then the decrease under Reagan/Bush followed by some recovery under Clinton.)

But the bottom line: real wages for most Americans are flat from 1970, while as noted above by the ski slope, the top 1% is doing wonderfully.

(And not all the story is simply in wages in taxes. For example, remember the savings and loan scandal of the 1980's, the one in which another Bush, Neil, was involved? It had 'deregulation', that right-wing sacred cow, let savings and loans implement very risky, irresponsible programs that greatly profited the very wealthy - and then of course crashed and burned, and the very wealthy involved were bailed out by the government.

That was a $153 bailout by the public taxpayer, wealth redistributed to the very wealthy who lost the money in the bad programs.)

Next, you make an argument that the wealthy are paying a very high rate of taxes compared to others.

One factor you don't mention is the fact that the poor pay much more of their income in taxes other than the income tax, so only looking at the income tax - as opposed to taxes like the payroll tax - is a very incomplete picture on taxation.

Well, let's look at a picture on the taxes paid, not just income tax, and the picture isn't quite the terrible unfair burden you suggested.



You go in to a personal story how you have done well in car dealerships.

That's great, but a common fallacy of people who do that is to think that 'anyone can', when in fact that's now how a society works. There are limited spots for the high end. They also commonly forget much sense of the goal of society for everyone to do ok - certainly to have large inequality, because that inequality is necessary for incentives that drive productivity which enriches the society - but balanced by some sharing of the wealth.

You are dependant on the rest of society being able to afford cars.

Once, Henry Ford showed Walter Reuther his new automation and said he didn't have to pay salaries to those machines.

Reuther responded that was nice, but who was going to buy the cars?

All of this has had the effect of 'class warfare' by the most wealth, the top 0.1% especially.

In the late 70's, the bottom 90% and the top 10% each had about half the wealth; now the top ten has three times as much as the bottom 90%.



I'll close out with a couple graphs that pain even bigger pictures of what's going on.

But first, I'll say I think your comments about Senators' personal wealth are basically about something very unimportant.

We're dealing with a multi-trillion dollar economy, and the issue is the policies they set; their own compensation is relevant only insofar as it affects their policies/motives etc., for the most part.

For example, Kerry's desire to increase taxes on the top 1% would make him pay more - so he's hardly incented by selfish motives. On the other hand, Cheney has saved huge sums by the tax borrowing (again, Bush has passed not a dollar in tax cuts, only tax borrowing), and his big bonus from Halliburton in exchange for getting them a several hundred increase in tax income, knowing he was about to be VP and in a position to help them get yet far more, is a conflict in interest.

It's the democrats who have been effective at reducing poverty - not republicans proclaiming ironic lies like 'trickle down' to hide their grabbing.



(Note again how JFK and LBJ cut poverty in half - how it was even or up uncer the republicans, down a little under Clinton).

Does all this have an effect on th eaverage American? Of course it does.

For example, look at the savings rate change for the average American post-Reagan.



Even worse, it's not just that there's a radical shift of wealth from most Americans to the top 1%, something which will be greatly compounded as their wealth further increases their power and domination of the political system, yet further increasing their conentration of wealth. It's destroying our nation's economy in coming years with debt, to spend tax dollars we don't have, borrowed, to enrich the top wealthy now.

Look at how the debt under republicans outgrows the economy:



Finally, one of the most important graphs, if a bit off-topic. It paints the picture of how the public feels about Bush's policies, outside of war.

It shows why it's essential for him to use fear and war to keep public support while robbing the nation blind.

For this one, you need to click the link for the image, I can't get it to work right. It's worth clicking to see the 45-degree negative approval throughout Bush's presidency outside of spikes.

http://www.hist.umn.edu/~ruggles/Approval.htm

I hope this info is useful to you in helping you see the right-wing economic lies for what they are, and who they benefit, and how they hurt the country.
 
Last edited:
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Craig234 said:
I hope this info is useful to you in helping you see the right-wing economic lies for what they are.
Cool. When do we get to see the left-wing lies for what they are, too? Or would you suggest that rich, liberal politicians never lie, and do not feed their sponsors? You know....republicans = more money to doctors...democrats = more money to trial attorneys....that kind of trade off. So your politicians are better than Craigsub's politicians, eh?

One huge problem with your left-wing biased roadmap is that your 'proof' of economic good times for the lower economic classes follows from just which party is in office in the White House. You'll note the folly of such thinking by realizing that the economy was tanking when Bush came to office and inherited some serious economic and social problems. (Ask yourself just why were the democrats swept from power. Although, I suppose you could harken back to your opinion that we're all cows...that would explain it...to yourself, anyway.) You should also note that during much of what you declare is republican caused demise of the spending power of the little guy came during times that Congress was ruled by democrats. You are simply granting the Executive TOO much economic influence.

You talk of Bush's drop in approval ratings....as compared to what? What would we be talking about with approval ratings had Gore ascended? How would he have handled 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq? We don't know, do we?! How would his policies have affected the economy? We don't know that either.

Have you ever tested your tomes for bias-loaded words? More even and balanced, logical thinking is required.
 
krabapple

krabapple

Banned
Craig234 said:
There's some truth to that. Any large system, however, has some inefficiencies and corruption. You can talk all day about the 'efficiences' of the private sector, the question is whether you pay attention to the real world and recognize the inefficiencies in it, the gaming for profit, the need for various regulatory oversite to prevent the greed causing inefficient thieving behavior, etc. I already mentioned the mafia role in unions as an example too.
Free-market conservatives are funny. They hate unions, they hate government regulation of business, so I guess they think businesses will just naturally tend to 'do the right thing' as regards workers without any impetus beyond the 'invisible hand' of the market. Because there's just so much historical precedent and goshdarnit *tradition* for companies doing that, right?

Great posts, Craig.
 
Last edited:
C

Craig234

Audioholic
OK, rjbudz

I'm going to reply to your post - and note that you should do less pointless sniping. Please think longer before you post.

For example, you have repeatedly 'corrected' me that when I refer to the US having democracy, I'm wrong, it's not democracy but a republic.

You are wrong, though, and would know that had you looked up the dictionary definition. Democracy included elected, representative government.

Anyway, for this post, which is utterly lacking in any on-point response to the facts I posted:

Cool. When do we get to see the left-wing lies for what they are, too?
Well, when I see someone post those, I may rebut them, too. Haven't seen that yet.

Or would you suggest that rich, liberal politicians never lie, and do not feed their sponsors? You know....republicans = more money to doctors...democrats = more money to trial attorneys....that kind of trade off.
No, I would not suggest that. They lie at times; far less than republicans They feed their 'sponsors'; far less than republicans.

They do tend to support trial lawyers, since republicans are dedicated to destroying much of the public's ability to hold big corporations accountable through the law. Sometimes, trial lawyers go too far and are in the wrong; other times, their opponents go too far and are in the wrong.

So your politicians are better than Craigsub's politicians, eh?
Yes. My politicians are far more fighting for the good of the public, the nation and mankind than the right-wing politicians are.

One huge problem with your left-wing biased
It's not bias. You misuse the word for something other than what it means.

When I become convinced that science is on the side of Al Gore and against Exxon on global warming, after seeing things such as the head of the National Academy of Science say that the issue has been more researched, and has a stronger consensus among the world's scientists, than any other he's seen, it's not bias for me to take Al Gore's side. It's an informed view, a conclusion.

It would be bias if I chose Gore's side regardless of the truth. But I was ready to do the opposite if the facts led there. That's not bias.

You'll note the folly of such thinking by realizing that the economy was tanking when Bush came to office and inherited some serious economic and social problems. (Ask yourself just why were the democrats swept from power. Although, I suppose you could harken back to your opinion that we're all cows...that would explain it...to yourself, anyway.)
I'm happy with my cows, and the nice feedback I got on the post from others who understood it.

You can't look at the small fact only, the recession the economy entered as Bush took office - you need to look at the bigger picture, the policies and results economically over terms, across Regan/Bush, across Clinton's two terms, across Bush 2's term and a half. They pain a picture on my side, big time.

You should also note that during much of what you declare is republican caused demise of the spending power of the little guy came during times that Congress was ruled by democrats. You are simply granting the Executive TOO much economic influence.
No, in fact, I can show that there is a strong correlation between economic positive performance and presidencies and congresses of democrats.

The president is the most important - while Congress fine tunes the budget and adds the pork, the president submits the starting budget and greatly influences the direction of the economy. That's why they call it Reagan's tax cut, Reagan's tax increase the following year, or Clinton's tax increase in 1993. The president has the strongest voice.

However, I will say that there can be some benefit to having the president and congress of opposite parties, checking each others' all-out waste on their party's favorite causes. What we're seeing now in the outrageous spending and debt is the result of the democrats not being in power to check the republicans' grabbing for their interests. The pretty pictures I posted show the disastrous debt they are causing.

You talk of Bush's drop in approval ratings....as compared to what?
As opposed to holding steady or increasing?

What would we be talking about with approval ratings had Gore ascended?
We can't know, but we can speculate based on comparing to Clinton, who Gore was not too different from on policies.

How would he have handled 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq? We don't know, do we?! How would his policies have affected the economy? We don't know that either.
Well, we know he would have implemented Bill Clinton's war plan on Al Queda, drawn up at the end of his term after it was confirmed Al Queda was behind the USS Cole bombing - thw plan Clinton gave to Bush to let him decide, while his cabinet warned the incoming Bushies that Al Queda was the #1 threat to deal with.

Bush's government, contemptuous and doing the opposite of anything Clinton did usually, did almost nothing against terrorism for 9 months. They had no meetings on terrorism, it was not discussed hardly at all at NSC meetings (Iraq was), the justice dpeartment's top 10 priorities exluded terrorims altogether, the war plan was put on the shelf. Who knows, maybe Gore could have disrupted 9/11, as Cinton disrupted the bombing of LAX in 2000.

But we don't know for sure what Gore would have done on some things (had 9/11 occured it's clear he would have invaded Afghanistan, and that he would not have pursued the war in Iraq. He may have taken lesser measures to try to overthrow Saddam, but he would not have followed the Project for a New American Century war policy). All in all, his policies were much closer to the views the public held as shown in polls.

And there's *huge* corrupt spending he would not have pursued for republican interests. He and Clinton took the huge debt of Reagan/Bush and balanced the budget, while Bush 2 skytocketed the debt back up with money for the most wealthy and corrupt spending. Look at Clinton for an idea what Gore would have done.

Gore did win the election by the way. He officially won the popular vote, and he actually won the electoral vote.

Whether you want to use the screwup on the butterfly ballot (it was an accident, but it robbed thousands of voters of their intended vote), or the measures which kept thousands of blacks from voting through such acts as the voter purge lists designed to target blacks (92% Gore voters), or the recount sponsored by the media which showed that Gore won under *every* scenario involving a statewide recount, he won the election.

It's unamerican to put your candidate ahead of the desire of the voters and sneer at the election going to the person the people did not elect.

Talk about bias!
 
C

Craig234

Audioholic
Krabapple

Thanks for the kind words.

I think it's basically an issue of ideology.

It's a nice, simple idea that the government is inefficient and the private sector is effecient, and to take that far, far too far.

The situation, as you know, is much more complex. Unfortunately, our public debate is not well suited for that. It's suited for Ann Coulter saying 'TRAITOR!'.

For example, the social security system is a great success overall, nearly ending elder poverty, and working with very low overhead (same with medicare).

Social Security would pay about three times as much, in my reading, as the private sector in overhead, accounting for profit, private sector wages, etc.

In fact, of course it's the pursuit of a cut of that *huge, huge* pie that motivates so-called reform for the system by the current administration, and its donors. Social Security does need to be tuned for the times - but not overhauled radically in a way which will greatly hurt seniors for the benefit of a few.

We've always had such corruption, and it's often disgusting - I think of the war profiteers of the civil war, selling rotten food and boots that fell apart immediately to the military to make a quick buck - and I remember Truman's hearings on war profiteering. The difference now is that the government is in league with the profiteers.

It's a problem that the public buys into the simple rhetoric, and gets ripped off so badly. Our nation is suffering so much from the policies.

Battles won with decades of blood to strengthen our middle class are being lost now, as the clock is rolled back to the gilded age in many ways.

(One thing protecting the public from the brunt of it is the force of illegal aliens with the cheap labor propping the economy up.

Since I know the right-wing is spitting at their screen as I say that, let me quote billionare republican Michael Bloomberg, mayor of NYC, to the Senate this week:

""Although they broke the law by illegally crossing our borders ... our city's economy would be a shell of itself had they not, and it would collapse if they were deported," he said. "The same holds true for the nation.")

Thanks again for the post.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Craig234 said:
I'm going to reply to your post - and note that you should do less pointless sniping.
It's unamerican to put your candidate ahead of the desire of the voters and sneer at the election going to the person the people did not elect.

Talk about bias!
One...My "pointless sniping" as you put it, is directed not at your ideas (which are indeed quite biased), but at your insults registered toward members of this forum and the bias you claim is theirs. Virtually every response you make includes an accusation of dimwittedness or some such, primarily because people don't agree with your point of view.

Two...I haven't given you my opinion of anything for you to say "Talk about bias!" You have zero information on my political point of view. ALL I have done is respond to your mistreatment of the concept of dialogue with others...your insults, your very own biases on open display, and your mistatements or generalizations about historical facts.
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
craigsub said:
Mulester... Why is it guys like you feel justified in insulting others ? Everything I posted was merely facts from credible sources. Now you know the "real Craigsub?". It would be illuminating if you would elaborate on this little gem. What IS the "real" Craigsub ?

You are giving John Kerry a total pass for paying less than 1 % of his assets in taxes. His assets, by the way, are (primarily) from 2 marriages. If you looked into this more deeply, you would find that John Kerry and his wife paid a lower percentage of their income in taxes than did the average family making $40,000 (Kerry-Heinz, in total, paid 11% of their gross income in taxes).

Yet you now wish to denigrate the CEO of Union Pacific. The fact is, his bonus was less 1% of Union Pacific's Income last year. He also paid $5,700,000 in Federal taxes on that bonus.

How anyone could look at the Union Pacific example vs. the John Kerry example, and decide Kerry deserves a pass because he has "D" next to his name while the UP CEO deserves scorn is mystifying.

Mulester ... I was not complaining about the fact that the top 1 % pay 495 times the taxes as the bottom 50 %, on average.

What does bother me is your assertion that the top 1% does not pay enough. Putting it into simple dollar terms ... for each $1000 in income from the bottom 50%, they pay $50 in taxes on their income, or 5% ... The top 1 %, for each $1000 in income, pays $400, or about 40%, in taxes. What about that is unfair ?

You also ignore the fact that the top 1% is paying a higher % of the total tax burden today, under "Sparky", in both absolute dollars AND in percentages, than did the top 1% did under President Clinton. These are facts, Mulester, not opinion. The IRS archives all this information. Feel free to look it up.
.....Craigsub, the "real Craigsub's posting abilities" reference was a compliment, that should have been obvious....I found with my friend who sells real estate, debate over the two political parties is futile when one of the debaters is a republican, haha....congratulations on climbing the ladder without an inheritance being the reason.....
 
C

craigsub

Audioholic Chief
Craig234 ... I am pressed for time, but a few quick responses ...

1. Kerry's proposal would have almost no impact on his income. The reason for this is the majority of their income came from tax free muni bonds. If you looked deeper, you would see that many of the "super-rich" make a lot of money tax free.

2. Every individual is given the opportunity to "climb the ladder". Some elect to do so through hard work, and some don't. Part of the hard work is risk taking. When one starts a business, it requires investment. If the business fails, that investment is gone. If the business is successful, it grows. It also pays lots of taxes, unless it has a really good lobbying firm. And if you think either party is any more or less susceptible to lobbyists, you are wrong.

3. My sources were all the IRS and the Bureau of LAbor and Statisitics. They are raw data, not filtered through some ".org" website on either the left or the right.

4. I do think the government is inefficient. Start a business, and run it for a few years, and see what happens. Business owners learn to work around the govt. red tape. Why ? Because it is their livelyhood on the line.
 
C

Craig234

Audioholic
Craigsub

Decided to hold off on the longer post I'd written to your side issues, and stick to the main topcs as discussed inmy earlier post. Feel free to respond when you can address them.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top