Clean tight and accurate under $1K recommendations please

[Acoustat]

True, high level inputs would only be used if I did not have the HT receiver.

So I'm going to use line in not LFE ?
How will the RCA jacks connect to what? Left or LFE input on sub?
...or wye splitter from sub out to L And R sub input?

Pretty sure the Rythmik sub has a crossover bypass switch.
Do we know whether that's pertaining to all types of inputs or just line level?

Had to search dipole, basically straight forward firing equally forwards and backwards
(ie. not off axis)

 

[TLS Guy]

True, high level inputs would only be used if I did not have the HT receiver.

So I'm going to use line in not LFE ?
How will the RCA jacks connect to what? Left or LFE input on sub?
...or wye splitter from sub out to L And R sub input?

Pretty sure the Rythmik sub has a crossover bypass switch.
Do we know whether that's pertaining to all types of inputs or just line level?

Had to search dipole, basically straight forward firing equally forwards and backwards
(ie. not off axis)

I have looked closer at the rhythmic subs. The F 12 SE has the bandwidth you need for a 100 Hz crossover, but that will be your limit. I see it is the LFE in that bypasses the crossover. So that is what you will use, LFE to LFE and set the AVR crossover to 100 Hz.

You need to make sure you have the A370PEQ2 amp. That is the only one that gets you to 200 HZ at -3db.

Your Acoustats are di-poles and they radiate equally front and back, but the rear radiation is out of phase with the front, as it has to be, as there in only one membrane. So bass cancellation occurs and there is a null to the sides. This is called figure of 8 radiation.

This is the reason why it is so hard to get bass out of an electrostatic loudspeaker. Bass roll off occurs at the point where the width of the panel equals a quarter wavelength of the radiated frequency.

A bi-pole also radiates front and back, but the rear output is in phase with the front radiation so the polar patterns are very different.

The only way you can make a moving coil speaker a di-pole is to have no back on the box, or basically have drivers back to back in their own enclosure space, so they can be driven out of phase.

The reason that this is not an academic issue is that an electrostatic panel is a line source and so the spl decreases by 3 db with the doubling of the distance. A cone loudspeaker is a point source, and spl drops off 6db with the doubling of the distance.

This makes integration of panel speakers and subs very difficult. You only get perfect integration at one distance.

This is why I so dislike the Martin Logan hybrid speakers.

It also goes to the fact that you will have terrible problems trying to integrate a center channel. Quad's advice, I think is correct: - Don't try.

 

[GIEGAR]

Ok, need a little help here. The Rythmik subs extend the frequency response to 200Hz in LFE mode.
The graph is not as controlled as the HSU graph, and I don't think the HSU requires the LFE mode
to produce upper frequencies. I don't know. Have had a lot of info thrown at me over the last week
researching this, so why would I want to use LFE rather than line in from my AVR?
(Please keep in mind that I'm wanting upper frequencies to pass on to the sub from the AVR i.e.100-200Hz)

Not sure which Hsu you're looking at, but I wouldn't sweat the minor wobbles in any frequency response graph. Within the range of frequencies dealt with by the sub, the room governs and these small irregularities will be totally swamped by the effects (peaks and dips) introduced by the room.

With respect to Rythmik vs Hsu, what you're looking at is simply amps configured in a different way, depending on choices made by the sub's designer. I wouldn't read too much into it. Actually, I believe in the past, Rythmik's amps did have the same or similar upper range on their Line In and LFE In inputs, but in response to customer feedback the upper range was increased on the LFE In to provide greater flexibility.

What frequency height does the LFE pass on?

The bandwidth of Dolby's LFE channel is 3Hz - 120Hz, with a "brickwall" at 120Hz (ie. no 121Hz), so most sound engineers tend to start rolling-off content at around 80Hz. DTS' LFE channel is theoretically full range, however by convention the upper limit is 120Hz and for consistency the sound engineers tend to roll-off content in a similar manner.

There are 2 sets of (non-slave modes) RCA inputs on the Rythmik and one set RCA on the HSU.
Is there an advantage to 2 RCA inputs and/or why would I want 2?

The Rythmik amp you want is the A370-PEQ3: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/download/PEQ3_sealed_quickguide.pdf. AFAIK, the dual inputs will provide double the line level input voltage, but in turn you dial back the volume (really input sensitivity) on the sub's amp and/or the AVR sets the sub output trim lower, so the net result is the same in terms of output. The advantage (I think) is that the sub's amp is operating at a lower input sensitivity and therefore generally operating with more headroom (reserve capability). I'm not 100% sure on this though.

Got it. So, you'll effectively be running an LFE + mains setup.

That's going to take some effort to tune properly.

Down-firing subs are fine, unless it's firing right into a deep carpet. You're not bringing back shag carpet, are you?

No, it won't be LFE + Main (Denon-speak). The intended configuration is straight up bass management of: LFE channel plus low-pass from satellite channels -> sub(s); and high-pass from satellite channels -> speakers, including the Acoustats. The aim is to relieve the Acoustats of all <100Hz duties via the AVR's bass management so that their bass panels can be disengaged, thereby gaining headroom (8dB?) for higher SPL usage.

 

[shadyJ]

Maybe a simple unit like this high pass filter would be a good idea for this kind of setup.

 

[KEW]

The bandwidth of Dolby's LFE channel is 3Hz - 120Hz, with a "brickwall" at 120Hz (ie. no 121Hz), so most sound engineers tend to start rolling-off content at around 80Hz. DTS' LFE channel is theoretically full range, however by convention the upper limit is 120Hz and for consistency the sound engineers tend to roll-off content in a similar manner.

I want to be sure I follow. The sub will not cut off the signal at 120Hz, but if the signal is being processed through a Dolby convention, the receiver will cut signal at 120. Thus, it all depends on what setting his receiver is on and not whether he plugs the subwoofer output into the LFE on the Rythmik or the regular input of the HSU.
Is that right?

Informative thread! I appreciate your persistence Acoustat!

 

[Acoustat]

I have looked closer at the rhythmic subs. The F 12 SE has the bandwidth you need for a 100 Hz crossover, but that will be your limit. I see it is the LFE in that bypasses the crossover. So that is what you will use, LFE to LFE and set the AVR crossover to 100 Hz.

You need to make sure you have the A370PEQ2 amp. That is the only one that gets you to 200 HZ at -3db.
What happened to the +1 octave?

The A370-PEQ2 amp also comes on the F15 which comes in ~$25 lower in cost than the glossy 12" SE model.

The reason that this is not an academic issue is that an electrostatic panel is a line source and so the spl decreases by 3 db with the doubling of the distance. A cone loudspeaker is a point source, and spl drops off 6db with the doubling of the distance.

This makes integration of panel speakers and subs very difficult. You only get perfect integration at one distance.
Very nice illustration. How did you come to be some knowledgable on electrostatics?
BTW mine carries the bass note quite perfectly, just not for kappow thunderous applications, or higher SPL.

This is why I so dislike the Martin Logan hybrid speakers.
As per your dual firing back to back drivers, Martin Logan now offers this situation
in their Balanced Force subwoofers. Check out the 212 Model
MartinLogan BalancedForce® Subs, Flagship Subwoofer Series
I really like the top flip up compartment with user friendly controls at the fingertip
It also goes to the fact that you will have terrible problems trying to integrate a center channel. Quad's advice, I think is correct: - Don't try.

I'm really turned on by the Martin Logan electrostatic centre can't afford one, but like I said
if I could, all surrounds and rears would be electrostatic too. They're just that good.

Not sure which Hsu you're looking at, but I wouldn't sweat the minor wobbles in any frequency response graph.
Ok, Roger that.


No, it won't be LFE + Main (Denon-speak). The intended configuration is straight up bass management of: LFE channel plus low-pass from satellite channels -> sub(s); and high-pass from satellite channels -> speakers, including the Acoustats. The aim is to relieve the Acoustats of all <100Hz duties via the AVR's bass management so that their bass panels can be disengaged, thereby gaining headroom (8dB?) for higher SPL usage.

Actually, I think I will be keeping bass in the mains for most of the time, then when I want to get serious
with the HT the AVR will be set to small if I remember right from my conversation with SVS, and relieve the mains of most bass (100Hz down).

Maybe a simple unit like this high pass filter would be a good idea for this kind of setup.

Thanks Shady, I believe the AVR will perform this task. It better LOL! I'm hoping I haven't over spent for nothing

Informative thread! I appreciate your persistence Acoustat!

It is very informative indeed. I am so ignorant on AVRs and HT, but have a general understanding
enough to get me in trouble. I'm sure the owners manual will answer some of the questions I'm putting forth
on connections. I'll be limping on a single sub for a while, and surely that'll be better than no sub
and will give me a chance to learn my AVR a little bit.
My wife and sister in law cannot believe I dissed the Boss Acoustimas system.
It doesn't take much reading to come to that conclusion on the web.

 

[Acoustat]

As much bass mgt the AVR has, I'm sure at some point, I'll be playing with different crossover points
and there has got to be a SPL curve for each crossover point, meaning, 50Hz on the mains = X number of db
increasing for each "click" or 1/10 or whatever the adjustment allows on the AVR.
The AVR should be here Wed. but have to wait a little on the sub. I'll be able to stream iTunes to my antiquated system finally

 

[crossedover]

http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-DCX2496-Ultradrive-High-Precision-Loudspeaker/dp/B000NJ3YI8

 

[Acoustat]

LOL crossedover, you really don't want me to get this subwoofer do ya
I think last check, I'm coming in at 3X the original budget for the turn key system and that's just with one sub.
I think you guys are going to make me wish I hadn't got the Denon 4000 if you keep coming up with these great ideas

 

[crossedover]

LOL crossedover, you really don't want me to get this subwoofer do ya View attachment 14019
I think last check, I'm coming in at 3X the original budget for the turn key system and that's just with one sub.
I think you guys are going to make me wish I hadn't got the Denon 4000 if you keep coming up with these great ideas

All good which ever your choice is, the link I posted just adds a incredibly level of control

 

[GIEGAR]

I want to be sure I follow. The sub will not cut off the signal at 120Hz, but if the signal is being processed through a Dolby convention, the receiver will cut signal at 120. Thus, it all depends on what setting his receiver is on and not whether he plugs the subwoofer output into the LFE on the Rythmik or the regular input of the HSU.
Is that right?

Informative thread! I appreciate your persistence Acoustat!

Sorry if my post was unclear. What I was trying to get at is the mandated/allowable bandwidth of Dolby Digital's and DTS's LFE (.1) channel. That is, the limits of what can be authored on the soundtrack by the sound engineers. The AVR doesn't have to cut off content above 120Hz because there can't (Dolby) and shouldn't (DTS) be anything there in the first place.

[Diversion: However, AVR's do have the safeguard of a low-pass filter (24dB/octave?) applied to the LFE channel (LPF for LFE) to attenuate out of band signals (possibly early DTS). On the Denon X4000, this LPF can be varied by the user between 80Hz - 250Hz, but the usual advice is to leave it at the default 120Hz and forget about it.]

And yes, your conclusion is right; the result of hooking up to the Rythmik's LFE In jack (with its shallow LPF @ 200hz) and the Hsu's Line In jack (with its "crossover" defeated) is theoretically the same.

 

[Acoustat]

Sorry if my post was unclear. What I was trying to get at is the mandated/allowable bandwidth of Dolby Digital's and DTS's LFE (.1) channel. That is, the limits of what can be authored on the soundtrack by the sound engineers. The AVR doesn't have to cut off content above 120Hz because there can't (Dolby) and shouldn't (DTS) be anything there in the first place.

That is the way I understood your previous post.

I put forth that question, as TLS had earlier suggested that I go an octave higher than 100Hz,
so I asked a prudent question, and thank you for your input. See, 2 weeks ago, I had no idea what LFE meant.
Did a search and found it to be the bass carrying .1 signal from the AVR so I figured it might have limitations.

 

[herbu]

No, it won't be LFE + Main (Denon-speak). The intended configuration is straight up bass management of: LFE channel plus low-pass from satellite channels -> sub(s); and high-pass from satellite channels -> speakers, including the Acoustats. The aim is to relieve the Acoustats of all <100Hz duties via the AVR's bass management so that their bass panels can be disengaged, thereby gaining headroom (8dB?) for higher SPL usage.

Here's what I think I've learned about LFE + Main on my X4000.
The LFE sub setting works like everybody's LFE. Set your mains to Small, and the sub gets LFE and frequencies below your crossover settings.
There are a couple situations where you lose the subs except for LFE only.
1) Set your mains to Large.
2) Use Direct or Pure Direct, (which set your mains to Large).

If, for whatever reason, you still want signals below your crossover setting to go to the subs in Case #1 and #2 above, you can set your subs to LFE+Main.

Regarding assigning your 2 sub outputs to Left & Right, no, I don't think so. And not sure I understand why/when you would do that. If you set your Front L/Rs to small, the bass from both channels will be sent to each sub output. In order to split your L/R bass, I think you would have to set one Front to small, and the other Front to Large. The X4000 won't do that. In the configuration menu, it pairs your Fronts, Sides, Rears, etc. So whatever signal you decide to send to your subs, each sub will get the same signal, though you can control their volume independantly.

 

[KEW]

GIGEAR, thanks for helping me understand.
Not until your last post did I understand that the Dolby/.1 120Hz limit is applied when the recording is made!

 

[Acoustat]

Regarding assigning your 2 sub outputs to Left & Right, no, I don't think so. And not sure I understand why/when you would do that.

ah, this is where Hi-Fidelity comes in. At that point where bass becomes more directional, 80Hz or higher, why wouldn't everybody want stereophonic?
If in HT and I may have the signal in my head wrong, but say in Jurassic Pk a dinosaur walks from the left side of the scene across to the Right side
or a band is playing a bass fiddle on one side of a stage, drums central and on the other side, bass guitar... I do not want to hear it all in both subs
all in one conglomerated bundle, which I tend to declare as messy.

GIGEAR, thanks for helping me understand.
Not until your last post did I understand that the Dolby/.1 120Hz limit is applied when the recording is made!

I don't feel so bad for having asked that question, as I see you've been a member here for 5+ yrs.
Now for the kicker…here's Rythmiks freq response

Frequency Response 14 - 200 Hz (-2 dB @ 14 Hz) with LFE inputs

^ What am I supposed to do with this information?
UPS tried to deliver my AVR today, but I was stuck in traffic. I'm glad it wasn't left out where it could be taken.

 

[Acoustat]

herbu, can you assign mains in the menu to carry 100Hz up
and the sub to carry 120Hz down, so both the mains and sub(s) overlap
frequencies between 100 and 120Hz?

or mains @90 and sub at 120? I'm sure I'll figure that out once hooked up
and I get a chance to tinker around with the menus.

I assume that bigger the area or wider frequency spanse /spread
the more gentle the sub will blend in, more invisibly.

 

[Acoustat]

GIGEAR, thanks for helping me understand.
...the Dolby/.1 120Hz limit is applied when the recording is made!

Is it the recording or the bandwidth of the circuit? I'm wanting a broader spectrum so to say to pass to the sub
and the 120Hz may well be fantastic, but I want more freedom than that to play with or to be able to take advantage
of the subs upper frequency response, 200Hz capabilities, some some go higher to 220Hz.

So if Rythmik specs out 200Hz in LFE mode, and the LFE circuit is only capable of 120Hz,
did Rythmik use equipment, other than a LFE source, to feed their LFE input, thus negating their specs
to us, the end user? If so, and I've no idea how I would learn accurately the truth, I should be looking
into a sub that has a frequency response that is usable, or well that sounded stupid, I should be using line out perhaps.
Does anyone else understand how I'm asking this and why? If I want 150Hz to the sub, the LFE is not going to supply it, right?

 

[GIEGAR]

That is the way I understood your previous post.

I put forth that question, as TLS had earlier suggested that I go an octave higher than 100Hz,
so I asked a prudent question, and thank you for your input. See, 2 weeks ago, I had no idea what LFE meant.
Did a search and found it to be the bass carrying .1 signal from the AVR so I figured it might have limitations.

Right! The penny's dropped at what you're getting at now. It's really nothing to be concerned about Acoustat. What TLS Guy was saying IIRC, is that ideally, to give the best chance of achieving a good blend between subs and speakers, the subs should be capable of playing with some authority to around 1 octave higher than the crossover frequency. This is about re-assembling (in the room) what bass management (lows -> sub; everything else -> speakers) has pulled apart in the satellite channels. The .1 LFE channel is a whole other beast and you're not expected to blend it's content at the crossover. In fact, you can't: the .1 LFE channel content gets a 10dB electrical boost over and above the level of the satellite channels on playback. This enables it to not only "keep up" with the 5 or 7 satellite channels but to provide additional impact when required. This illustrates the arrangement:

(Note that the blue line is mis-labeled IMO. "Redirected bass" would be a correct description. "Subwoofer Level" is the sum of LFE and redirected bass.)​

Hope that helps!

GIGEAR, thanks for helping me understand.
Not until your last post did I understand that the Dolby/.1 120Hz limit is applied when the recording is made!

Glad to add to your body of knowledge KEW!

 

[herbu]

herbu, can you assign mains in the menu to carry 100Hz up
and the sub to carry 120Hz down, so both the mains and sub(s) overlap
frequencies between 100 and 120Hz?

I don't think so... not in the X4000 menu. I think that's where you would have to use LFE+Main, and adjust the low pass filter in the sub.

As for the creature stomping from left to right, I believe that room shaking Stomp Stomp Stomp is below the frequency of directionality. The sound waves are simply too long for your ears/brain to distinguish any difference in the timing.

 

[Acoustat]

Right! The penny's dropped at what you're getting at now. ideally, to give the best chance of achieving a good blend between subs and speakers, the subs should be capable of playing with some authority to around 1 octave higher than the crossover frequency. This is about re-assembling (in the room) what bass management (lows -> sub; everything else -> speakers) has pulled apart in the satellite channels. The .1 LFE channel is a whole other beast and you're not expected to blend it's content at the crossover. In fact, you can't:

Hope that helps!

Yes and no, it helps. It helps on the LFE end of things, and here I go worrying about it again, on the no end of things,
if I'm wanting a sub capable of a higher octave than crossover, will I still use the limiting LFE circuit?
I'm assuming yes, since LFE boosts +10db to help achieve synchronicity with satellites, and crescendos with authority.

I don't think so... not in the X4000 menu. I think that's where you would have to use LFE+Main, and adjust the low pass filter in the sub.

As for the creature stomping from left to right, I believe that room shaking Stomp Stomp Stomp is below the frequency of directionality. The sound waves are simply too long for your ears/brain to distinguish any difference in the timing.

LFE + Main, I know I'll forget that and repeat myself again, please be patient with me LOL
For directional bass, I believe that depends upon the frequency used, for a moving target or separated sound field, like with the band situation.

Evaluation for low frequencies

For frequencies below 800 Hz, the dimensions of the head (ear distance 21.5 cm, corresponding to an interaural time delay of 625 µs), are smaller than the half wavelength of the sound waves. So the auditory system can determine phase delays between both ears without confusion. Interaural level differences are very low in this frequency range, especially below about 200 Hz, so a precise evaluation of the input direction is nearly impossible on the basis of level differences alone. As the frequency drops below 80 Hz it becomes difficult or impossible to use either time difference or level difference to determine a sound's lateral source, because the phase difference between the ears becomes too small for a directional evaluation.

Sound localization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ^
so above 80Hz is fair game for the discerning, laterally with timing, if I understand correctly.