Clean tight and accurate under $1K recommendations please

[GIEGAR]

...

I don't feel so bad for having asked that question, as I see you've been a member here for 5+ yrs.
Now for the kicker…here's Rythmiks freq response

Frequency Response 14 - 200 Hz (-2 dB @ 14 Hz) with LFE inputs

^ What am I supposed to do with this information?

Acoustat, I don't quite know what you're asking here. That's the sub's nearfield measured frequency response (output) when fed a test signal through the LFE input jack. It's got nothing to do with the allowable bandwidth of the .1 LFE channel on digital media.

Is it the recording or the bandwidth of the circuit?

The recording. 120Hz is the absolute upper frequency limit ("brickwall") of what can be encoded (say on a DVD) in Dolby Digital's .1 LFE channel.

I'm wanting a broader spectrum so to say to pass to the sub
and the 120Hz may well be fantastic, but I want more freedom than that to play with or to be able to take advantage
of the subs upper frequency response, 200Hz capabilities, some some go higher to 220Hz.

As explained above, the allowable bandwidth of the .1 LFE channel is independent of what can be re-directed from the satellites to the AVR's sub output jack(s) via bass management. Also, you appear to be confusing/interchanging the possible frequency range of content with the frequency response of the sub. They're two different things.

So if Rythmik specs out 200Hz in LFE mode, and the LFE circuit is only capable of 120Hz,

Acoustat, there is no "circuit only capable of 120Hz". Please see my posts above about the relevence of 120Hz.

did Rythmik use equipment, other than a LFE source, to feed their LFE input, thus negating their specs
to us, the end user? If so, and I've no idea how I would learn accurately the truth, I should be looking
into a sub that has a frequency response that is usable, or well that sounded stupid, I should be using line out perhaps.
Does anyone else understand how I'm asking this and why? If I want 150Hz to the sub, the LFE is not going to supply it, right?

No, that's not right. The LFE In is the correct input to use. You say it yourself above: via the LFE In, the frequency response of the sub is out to 200Hz. This will comfortably accommodate the contents of the .1 LFE audio channel and redirected bass from a 100Hz (or higher) crossover set in the AVR.

OK, I suspect what's got you stuffed is that Rythmik have chosen to label the input jack "LFE In", when in reality the line level signal sent to that input from an AVR's sub output jack can (and usually does) contain the sum of the .1 LFE channel content (boosted 10dB) and redirected bass from the satellite channels (see diagram above). It's this re-directed bass that is at frequencies higher than 120Hz. Rythmik could just as easily called it "AVR In" or "HT In"... it just denotes the input to use when low-pass filter, delay/phase, low-pass slope etc are not required/disabled because they're taken care of by the AVR's digital bass management.

Edit: This is a good reference and worth absorbing: Feature Article - "The Misunderstood 0.1 LFE Channel in 5.1 Digital Surround Sound" - April, 2000. (Be aware though that AVR/processor technology has advanced significantly since 2000 and some references my be out of date.)

 

[GIEGAR]

Yes and no, it helps. It helps on the LFE end of things, and here I go worrying about it again, on the no end of things,
if I'm wanting a sub capable of a higher octave than crossover, will I still use the limiting LFE circuit?
I'm assuming yes, since LFE boosts +10db to help achieve synchronicity with satellites, and crescendos with authority.

As I attempted to explain above, there is no limiting LFE circuit, on the sub or the AVR. It's the frequency range of the .1 LFE channel content that's limited.

You're good to go! The Rythmik F15 is a great sub for your purposes and would have been my No. 1 pick for you.

BTW, the 10dB of signal boost is automatically applied to the LFE content by the AVR. The Denon has the facility to remove this boost to avoid a "double boost" on any incorrectly mastered DVD's (mainly DTS format).

LFE + Main, I know I'll forget that and repeat myself again, please be patient with me LOL

I recommend you forget about for LFE + Mains for good. Sending a low-pass of the mains to the sub and running the mains full range ("large") will only exacerbate the possible integration issues that TLS Guy alluded to previously.

For directional bass, I believe that depends upon the frequency used, for a moving target or separated sound field, like with the band situation.

Evaluation for low frequencies
Sound localization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ^
so above 80Hz is fair game for the discerning, laterally with timing, if I understand correctly.

Thanks for the link! That will be a good read.

More on this later... must scoot now.

 

[Acoustat]

Sorry if my post was unclear. What I was trying to get at is the mandated/allowable bandwidth of Dolby Digital's and DTS's LFE (.1) channel.

Sorry I misunderstood this as circuitry as well.
Got it. Yes I was "stuffed" on that one.

 

[3db]

Right! The penny's dropped at what you're getting at now. It's really nothing to be concerned about Acoustat. What TLS Guy was saying IIRC, is that ideally, to give the best chance of achieving a good blend between subs and speakers, the subs should be capable of playing with some authority to around 1 octave higher than the crossover frequency. This is about re-assembling (in the room) what bass management (lows -> sub; everything else -> speakers) has pulled apart in the satellite channels. The .1 LFE channel is a whole other beast and you're not expected to blend it's content at the crossover. In fact, you can't: the .1 LFE channel content gets a 10dB electrical boost over and above the level of the satellite channels on playback. This enables it to not only "keep up" with the 5 or 7 satellite channels but to provide additional impact when required. This illustrates the arrangement:

View attachment 14022

(Note that the blue line is mis-labeled IMO. "Redirected bass" would be a correct description. "Subwoofer Level" is the sum of LFE and redirected bass.)​

Hope that helps!


Glad to add to your body of knowledge KEW!

Excellent work.. The picture explains it exactly what you have been stating. I did not think there was any limitations of the Rythmik subs.

 

[herbu]

For directional bass, I believe that depends upon the frequency used, for a moving target or separated sound field, like with the band situation.

Evaluation for low frequencies
Sound localization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ^
so above 80Hz is fair game for the discerning, laterally with timing, if I understand correctly.

If you set your crossovers at 80Hz, what's the problem? This whole line of questions is getting a bit confusing to me. Sounds like you don't really want traditional subs... more like mains with superlative bass response. Maybe you should look at something like 4x RBH T2s.

Many speakers have great response down to 80Hz. Many subs have great response up to 80Hz. I don't understand the problem.

 

[shadyJ]

If you set your crossovers at 80Hz, what's the problem?

The problem is his speakers do not have great response down to 80 Hz, and it isn't easy to keep the sub in phase with the speakers. I would probably just do what TLS Guy recommends. I think something like this is in order. It's expensive, but it should keep the subs in phase with the speakers, and it will filter out the highs from the subs and the lows from the mains, and it can deal with dual subs and varying crossover frequencies.

 

[GIEGAR]

Sorry I misunderstood this as circuitry as well.
Got it. Yes I was "stuffed" on that one.

It's all good. Glad we're on the same page now.

Excellent work.. The picture explains it exactly what you have been stating. I did not think there was any limitations of the Rythmik subs.

Thanks 3db. I can't claim credit for the pic - I lifted it from the Secrets article linked earlier.


As the thread title says: Clean tight and accurate under $1K ...and this is the ported version. (Keep a close eye on the raised outer perimeter of the cone after 0:44 and 1:13.)

[video=youtube;Af5K1OcJut0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af5K1OcJut0[/video]​

 

[3db]

It's all good. Glad we're on the same page now.


Thanks 3db. I can't claim credit for the pic - I lifted it from the Secrets article linked earlier.


As the thread title says: Clean tight and accurate under $1K ...and this is the ported version. (Keep a close eye on the raised outer perimeter of the cone after 0:44 and 1:13.)

[video=youtube;Af5K1OcJut0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af5K1OcJut0[/video]​

Did you see the one with the windows rattling with same sub?

 

[Acoustat]

If you set your crossovers at 80Hz, what's the problem? This whole line of questions is getting a bit confusing to me. Sounds like you don't really want traditional subs... more like mains with superlative bass response. Maybe you should look at something like 4x RBH T2s.

Many speakers have great response down to 80Hz. Many subs have great response up to 80Hz. I don't understand the problem.

The only problem ATM is I have to do a lot of owners manual reading on the PC and the system's in another room
to figure out how the heck to use my Denon DE-70 Eq, which currently is supplied signal via Tape 1 Out from my pre-amp
and feeds that processed signal back into Tape 1 Input on my pre-amp.

Sorry for the confusion, it was my misunderstanding of
the capacity, of the LFE circuit, which I was mirroring with the LFE channel.
I was not, distinguishing, betwixt the twain.

Now I understand the AVR can feed any frequency it has through this circuit
even though, the LFE channel is not recordable in such capacity. All new to me
I was thinking Rythmik was pulling wool over my eyes with LFE @ 200Hz
when the channel does not reach above 120Hz, confusion cleared, all can breathe a sigh of relief.

The patience is appreciated.

Now my mains, they do handle well below 80Hz with intoxicating accuracy.
I would not have dropped my savings and then some on them if they did not.
They cannot drive low frequencies with chest moving force though.
At such amplification, they discharge with a clicking sound, protecting the panels
and is the technology that brought the lifetime warranty with these speakers.
How many out there have speakers with a lifetime warranty when they purchased them?
Honestly, all I need to have a splendid experience with HT is a sub and 2 rears
and some of your alls help along the way while I am it. Thanks.

 

[GIEGAR]

Did you see the one with the windows rattling with same sub?

No, I'll have to find that one when I get home.

 

[Acoustat]

It's all good. Glad we're on the same page now.
As the thread title says: Clean tight and accurate under $1K ...and this is the ported version. (Keep a close eye on the raised outer perimeter of the cone after 0:44 and 1:13.)

Yes! If you're referencing how quickly the movement stops, that IS impressive
Thanks for sharing that.

Not only do I have another bad LG TV, I either have a bad HDMI cable or board/port on the AVR one or the other.
I cannot complete the setup assistant as the receiver fails to see the satellite.

 

[GIEGAR]

Yes! If you're referencing how quickly the movement stops, that IS impressive
Thanks for sharing that.

I thought so too!

Not only do I have another bad LG TV, I either have a bad HDMI cable or board/port on the AVR one or the other.
I cannot complete the setup assistant as the receiver fails to see the satellite.

I doubt it's the cable itself.

Check this post, specifically 5. Known Issues and 11. Troubleshooting, to see if anything looks familiar: The 'Official' 2013 Denon "E Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - AVS Forum.

 

[Acoustat]

Excellent! LG seems to have a lot of bad main boards, even replacements.

Nonetheless, your link there references the HDMI (ARC) port which is where my issue probably is.
I'll need to go into tv settings and make sure the HDMI CEC setting is turned On.
Will check today, and read on and if I have further issues, like the Denon Eq not hooked up right,
will start a thread on that.

 

[herbu]

They cannot drive low frequencies with chest moving force though. At such amplification, they discharge with a clicking sound

I had the same situation... I thought. Played w/ crossovers... didn't fix it. Finally figured out it was the FV15HP clipping, not my towers. Turned on the sub limiter... problem fixed.
Rythmik says, "LIMITER ON turns on limiter. This setting reduces overload of subwoofer arisen from large signal surge and is recommended for HT."

Edit: Lest anyone misunderstand, I love my Rythmik FV15HP. It is a beast!!! (Even w/ the Limiter On.)

 

[3db]

I had the same situation... I thought. Played w/ crossovers... didn't fix it. Finally figured out it was the FV15HP clipping, not my towers. Turned on the sub limiter... problem fixed.
Rythmik says, "LIMITER ON turns on limiter. This setting reduces overload of subwoofer arisen from large signal surge and is recommended for HT."

Edit: Lest anyone misunderstand, I love my Rythmik FV15HP. It is a beast!!! (Even w/ the Limiter On.)

Yup, and here are the numbers to back that up.

Data-Bass

 

[Acoustat]

Thanx guys. Do believe I'll be getting the F-15. I'm just not hearing anything poor about my 1st "go to" choice.
~$100 more than the 12" and about the same as the 12 SE. Can't wait to put all this hashing out, input
and learning curve to use. A PC geek at work may stop by next week and see if we can get my setup worked out.
I'm not computer illiterate, but I am in the dark on a lot of this HT protocol, jargon, and do and dont's as you can see.

Always was frustrating how my folks had such a hard time with TV remotes, and VCR recording was nonexistent for them.
I'm feeling their pain now

 

[Acoustat]

Just off the tele with Denon, I got a bum AVR they said.
I have to turn the volume up to ~60-70 for normal news cast volume
and the theca guy said we should be blown out of the room at that level.
I'll start a new thread under receivers incase anyone has a better understanding than the Denon tech support team
They did say I cannot, use my Denon DE-70 Eq with this newer AVR, so I bypassed that.

 

[Acoustat]

So Denon wants me to return the AVR to Amazon.com.
It gets really hot just watching regular programming/news
maybe because the volume is so high

Started a thread in amps and receivers
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/amps-pre-pros-receivers/92207-denon-x4000-bum-out-box.html

 

[Irishman]

TLS Guy, I agree with everything you said, except for positioning the subs beside each of the front electrostats. Such a position doesn't take into account the room at all.

I recommend doing the subwoofer crawl with one sub to find its optimal spot, and then positioning the second one on a corresponding spot on the opposite wall. For example, if he ends up placing the first sub on the center of the right wall, then place the second sub on the center of the left wall (or as close as he can get to it). It will really help smooth out room modes.

 

[TLS Guy]

TLS Guy, I agree with everything you said, except for positioning the subs beside each of the front electrostats. Such a position doesn't take into account the room at all.

I recommend doing the subwoofer crawl with one sub to find its optimal spot, and then positioning the second one on a corresponding spot on the opposite wall. For example, if he ends up placing the first sub on the center of the right wall, then place the second sub on the center of the left wall (or as close as he can get to it). It will really help smooth out room modes.

No, you missed the point.

He has to offload the electrostatic panels at a much higher than usual frequency in order to gain spl. Not only that his subs have to operate an octave above crossover. Unless he puts his sun close to the mains, his subs will be easy to localize. Not only that, they will not do an adequate job of reinforcing the panels where they need it.

In fact I will be honest, I actually disagree with the wisdom of moving subs away from mains. I say this, as I firmly believe a truly full range speaker without subs is a desirable luxury. That is what I have designed and do not use subs in my main system. Despite that a have huge spl to 20 Hz and can shake the floor, your but you name it. At the same time the bass is perfectly controlled and devoid of boom and coloration. Not the least of the advantages, is that larger drivers can truly off load smaller drivers by handling the step loss compensation. There are true advantages to having larger drivers operate well above usual sub range.

I firmly believe that a system reliant on subs for deep bass is actually second best.