Clean tight and accurate under $1K recommendations please

[jcparks]

Looks like the first graph is for the amp that shipped in an older model of the sub and the second graph is from the one that is currently shipping with the sub. The newer amp basically extends the frequency reaponse of the sub all the way out to 200 hertz. The response is pretty flat from 20 hertz to 100 hertz which means it is going to play the entire range at very close to the same spls, so you wont have any frequencies that will play louder then others. Those are the graphs for the standard f15 sub at 974... shipping on the sub is goong to be around 90 dollars though which takes the price to 1070

 

[jcparks]

Also there are two models of the F15
the standard F15 with a 370amp for $974 and the F15 high power with a 600watt amp for $1224
but it seems they both have the same frequency response.. from reading it sounds like the high power will play about 30% louder.

 

[shadyJ]

A pair of duals, just aren't in the bank unless you want to buy my reef tank
Great info on the LFE input above 90 Hz, how did you know that?
Now, if I understand LFE (like I said I'm not up to speed on a lot of things and had to search that)
it is a single channel bass signal carried to the sub from the probably now AVRs used today (the .1 signal)
View attachment 13988
Is it possible to run twin subs with LFS daisy chained? Daisy chained and .1 and LFE sound so...not stereo
to be politically correct I'm thinking and not to offend some out there who love their .1 channel


I do not see dual 12's at Rythmik I do see the model 25, dual 15's

What I'm seeing in the Rythmik is a sub that attends to some of the pitfalls of subwoofer designs.
Notice, I have not made a pair of duals yet.

When I say duals, I don't mean dual driver subs, I mean two subs. They would have to be placed in complementary spots in order to realize the full benefits from a multiple sub system. Unless you are incredibly lucky, a single sub will leave you with a very wonky frequency response, no matter how good it is. Two subs can go a long way toward getting a fuller and more even bass sound. A single sub will not cut it for a hi-fi system.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanx for that I was hoping that was the case.
I do not understand Q values, except the lower the better the...? quality, accuracy, ability?

Oh no! I could read the HSU graph, but the Rythmik is Greek to me. I am lost. Not a good illustration
the one who drew up that gave no reference to color scheme and failed to make clear to me what was happening with the 2
or why two lines were involved.
You may know right off the bat just fine, I on the other hand am ignorant.
I see the difference in the additional low pass filtre comparison for sure.
What I'm looking at starts at $974 Rythmik Audio • 15" servo subwoofer F15
but that's a 600W amp. Very confusing as it states both these amps are standard
H600PEQ3 and A370PEQ3
Please see Amplifier options 1st line
then Description in bold

I'm glad you pointed out the error of my ways. That Rhythmic sub will be useless in this application!

 

[Acoustat]

I'm glad you pointed out the error of my ways. That Rhythmic sub will be useless in this application!

Did not realize I had pointed out anything, except the amp size discrepancy but please elaborate, why useless?
What would be considered useful at this point? The only way I could do 2 subs, would be to remain 2ch stereo no HT
And use the 100 Hz crossover on my speakers, no AVR to allow complimentary sub to full range on the panels/speakers.
My speakers don't really play "loud" I like to describe it as more presence if that makes sense, I'm sure it does if you've
Ever owned a pair of electrostatics. So a sub pair, would cost a lot and be difficult to blend with the panels and leave me
With no HT possibilities other than stereo which isn't a bad thing really, but it seams there's something missing in stereo
When a film is shot in surround.

I'll pick up on your reply tomorrow, thanks.

 

[jcparks]

I think TLS was suggesting that you cross the sub over at 100hz however the Rythmic sub has a steep drop off at 90 htz with the line in outs on the amplifier.

 

[TLS Guy]

Did not realize I had pointed out anything, except the amp size discrepancy but please elaborate, why useless?
What would be considered useful at this point? The only way I could do 2 subs, would be to remain 2ch stereo no HT
And use the 100 Hz crossover on my speakers, no AVR to allow complimentary sub to full range on the panels/speakers.
My speakers don't really play "loud" I like to describe it as more presence if that makes sense, I'm sure it does if you've
Ever owned a pair of electrostatics. So a sub pair, would cost a lot and be difficult to blend with the panels and leave me
With no HT possibilities other than stereo which isn't a bad thing really, but it seams there's something missing in stereo
When a film is shot in surround.

I'll pick up on your reply tomorrow, thanks.

You can't use the output from your speakers for a modern sub. The sub designed ofr those speakers, though passive had part of the crossover network in them. They were not active. So the power amp drove the speakers and the sub.

Your biggest problem is spl. You do not have powerful speakers, so you do not need a powerful sub. You have an unusual situation, as you need a sub with extended frequency response. The Rythmics are limited in HF extension. This aspect is more important to you the bass extension. These HSU sibs fit your requirements best. The higher you can crossover the more spl. you will gain. To gain any useful spl. you must cross no lower than 100 Hz, this was explained in your Acoustat manual I downloaded.

These HSU subs will be best suited to your situation and you do really need two subs. It will be best to run the subs mono. Put each sub as close as possible to its respective panel.

They are on sale now for $519. So two of these will get you close to your 1K budget.

You can run them with a Q of 0.5 or 0.3. A Q of 0.5 or less will be fine for your application.

You can bypass the crossover on the sub and use the receiver crossover. That will be the best way to run the set up.

These subs have good high frequency extension and will give you the most flexibility to gain spl by off loading the panels.

 

[3db]

I'm glad you pointed out the error of my ways. That Rhythmic sub will be useless in this application!

. If the OP uses the LFE inputs, the sub will go to 200Hz.

Specifications
Driver	DS1510 15" high excursion with custom sensing coil
Driver materials	Black anodized aluminum with rubber surround
	Cast aluminum basket
	Copper flux modulation shorting rings
Amplifier	600 RMS class H patented servo controlled
Dimensions	19"(W) x 19 " (H )x 20 "(D) - (21-1/2" D with grille)
Shipping Weight	108 lbs
Frequency Response	14 - 200 Hz (-2 dB @ 14 Hz) with LFE inputs
	14 - 90 Hz (-2 dB @ 14 Hz) with LINE IN inputs
Crossover slope	Selectable 12 or 24 dB / octave (PEQ and XLR versions)
Crossover range (Low pass)	25 - 100 Hz
Rumble Filter (High pass )	20 Hz 18 dB / octave
Phase response	90 degrees phase shift at 20 Hz
Phase adjustment	0 - 180 degrees continuously variable
Bass damping factor settings	high (Q=0.5), med (Q=0.7), and low (Q=1.1)
Finishes	Available in honey oak vinyl or black oak vinyl
Warranty	5 years warranty on driver and 2 years on electronics
	30 day satisfaction guarantee

<tbody>
</tbody>

 

[TLS Guy]

. If the OP uses the LFE inputs, the sub will go to 200Hz.

Specifications
Driver	DS1510 15" high excursion with custom sensing coil
Driver materials	Black anodized aluminum with rubber surround
	Cast aluminum basket
	Copper flux modulation shorting rings
Amplifier	600 RMS class H patented servo controlled
Dimensions	19"(W) x 19 " (H )x 20 "(D) - (21-1/2" D with grille)
Shipping Weight	108 lbs
Frequency Response	14 - 200 Hz (-2 dB @ 14 Hz) with LFE inputs
	14 - 90 Hz (-2 dB @ 14 Hz) with LINE IN inputs
Crossover slope	Selectable 12 or 24 dB / octave (PEQ and XLR versions)
Crossover range (Low pass)	25 - 100 Hz
Rumble Filter (High pass )	20 Hz 18 dB / octave
Phase response	90 degrees phase shift at 20 Hz
Phase adjustment	0 - 180 degrees continuously variable
Bass damping factor settings	high (Q=0.5), med (Q=0.7), and low (Q=1.1)
Finishes	Available in honey oak vinyl or black oak vinyl
Warranty	5 years warranty on driver and 2 years on electronics
	30 day satisfaction guarantee

<tbody>
</tbody>

He still will be better off with two HSU subs. He really does need two. The HSU subs will give him the option of a crossover above 100 Hz and increase spl further, at the same time reducing the risk of panel damage.

 

[3db]

He still will be better off with two HSU subs. He really does need two. The HSU subs will give him the option of a crossover above 100 Hz and increase spl further, at the same time reducing the risk of panel damage.

Then he could step into these, a 12" sealed design Rythmik Audio servo subwoofer 12" F12SE Signature Edition - specifications

Specifications
Driver	12" high excursion with custom sensing coil
Driver materials	Black or silver anodized aluminum with rubber surround
	Cast aluminum basket
	Copper flux modulation shorting rings
Amplifier	370w RMS class A/B patented servo controlled
Dimensions	15-3/4"(W) x 15-3/4" (H )x 17"(D) - (18-1/2" D with grille)
Shipping Weight	76 lbs
Frequency Response	14 - 200 Hz (-2 dB @ 14 Hz) with LFE inputs in A370PEQ3/XLR2/XLR3
	14 - 100 Hz (-2 dB @ 14 Hz) with LINE IN inputs in all models
Crossover slope	Selectable 12 or 24 dB / octave (PEQ and XLR versions)
Crossover range (Low pass)	25 - 100 Hz
Rumble Filter (High pass )	20hz 18 dB / octave
Phase response	< 90 degrees phase shift at 20 Hz
Phase adjustment	0 - 180 degrees continuously variable
Bass damping factor settings	high (Q=0.5), med (Q=0.7), and low (Q=1.1)
Finishes	Piano Gloss
Warranty	5 years warranty on driver and 2 years on electronics
	30 day satisfaction guarantee

<tbody>
</tbody>

 

[TLS Guy]

Then he could step into these, a 12" sealed design Rythmik Audio servo subwoofer 12" F12SE Signature Edition - specifications

Specifications
Driver	12" high excursion with custom sensing coil
Driver materials	Black or silver anodized aluminum with rubber surround
	Cast aluminum basket
	Copper flux modulation shorting rings
Amplifier	370w RMS class A/B patented servo controlled
Dimensions	15-3/4"(W) x 15-3/4" (H )x 17"(D) - (18-1/2" D with grille)
Shipping Weight	76 lbs
Frequency Response	14 - 200 Hz (-2 dB @ 14 Hz) with LFE inputs in A370PEQ3/XLR2/XLR3
	14 - 100 Hz (-2 dB @ 14 Hz) with LINE IN inputs in all models
Crossover slope	Selectable 12 or 24 dB / octave (PEQ and XLR versions)
Crossover range (Low pass)	25 - 100 Hz
Rumble Filter (High pass )	20hz 18 dB / octave
Phase response	< 90 degrees phase shift at 20 Hz
Phase adjustment	0 - 180 degrees continuously variable
Bass damping factor settings	high (Q=0.5), med (Q=0.7), and low (Q=1.1)
Finishes	Piano Gloss
Warranty	5 years warranty on driver and 2 years on electronics
	30 day satisfaction guarantee

<tbody>
</tbody>

He could but that will get him 100% over budget.

The 2 HSU subs keep him very close to his $1000 budget for subs.

The Rhythmic sub barely gets him to 200 Hz. I think for his purposes he will be much better off without a servo sub. For his application a wide bandwidth sub is a very important criterion.

 

[Acoustat]

Hmmm, there's a lot of info to process and both subs sound like winners.
What I like about the HSU subs is made in USA.
The direct servo sounds like a great way to clean up reradiated bass in the Rythmik.
I will be purchasing my AVR 1st, then a subwoofer. After Christmas, I can use a bonus for a second woofer.

I should ask at this point…what are high pass inputs…amplified signal from amp? if so, how amplified are we talking?
That's one thing the HSU has going for it, but the Rythmik has a lot of tuning tools. Like I said, a lot of info to sort through.

. If the OP uses the LFE inputs, the sub will go to 200Hz.

I noticed that immediately and wandered if I was missing something.

He still will be better off with two HSU subs. He really does need two. The HSU subs will give him the option of a crossover above 100 Hz and increase spl further, at the same time reducing the risk of panel damage.

…but doesn't the Rythmik have the same ability, particularly with the AVR bass mgt?
This info is precisely where I was going with this thread, thank you. OP asking if I could do better for less.
But…is one really better than the other? They both have great attributes, and this my friends, is the only
form of auditioning of them I can do, based on your experiences with them, and knowledge of the product as a whole
That is, aside from the 30 day in home Guarantee trial period which I'd rather do it right the 1st time especially with
adding a sub down the road…matched.

Ok the HSU, TLS, isn't that a ported sub? You said I needed to go with a sealed sub to accompany my speakers.
Secondly, though my speakers aren't real "loud" if I open my Eq and start subtracting the bass curve I normally run
I can easily run some 750W peaks and the neighbors down over the hill raise Cain. I would for that, consider this
VTF-2 MK4 @ 250W continuous a little under par to accompany and enhance my speakers.
(750W peaks are visually watching the onboard analog power meters, not a digital power meter)

The HSU sub graphs dual and single port frequency response, but not with the sealed option.
I wander why?

jcparks recommended the ULS 15, a bit more than I need, but I'd rather more than not enough.
The Dayton kit is a no go for me.

Also TLS I understand I cannot use an active sub with my current setup. I'm just saying, that if I were to get 2 subs
I could not afford to do HT and they would have to be passive subs. Then HT surround would be, well, different, but doable, later .

This being able to bypass the subwoofers crossover and use the AVR is really genius. If a sub is capable of 220Hz
why do they only cross up to 90 Hz on the sub itself?

I have this CD from Carver from when I got my speakers and db meter to help setup the 15x30 living room
at my parents house back then. It's the Carver Sonic Holography Test Disk found at their site and might be
of interest for test tones for someone out there.

http://thecarversite.com/yetanotherforum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=407

It was pretty cool back then and I'm sure has a place nowadays too, though AVRs make setups a snap as compared.

 

[shadyJ]

The Hsu subs are not made in the USA. They are manufactured in China.

High levels inputs are for the amplified signal from the amplifier.

You could run the VTF2 sealed, but there isn't any great reason to do so. All that will really do is diminish the bass extension. Also, the VTF2 would easily have enough dynamic range to keep up with Acoustats. Don't judge speaker loudness on amplifier power. These subs will be a lot more efficient for the same power than planar speakers.

 

[Acoustat]

The Hsu subs are not made in the USA. They are manufactured in China.

High levels inputs are for the amplified signal from the amplifier.

You could run the VTF2 sealed, but there isn't any great reason to do so. All that will really do is diminish the bass extension. Also, the VTF2 would easily have enough dynamic range to keep up with Acoustats. Don't judge speaker loudness on amplifier power. These subs will be a lot more efficient for the same power than planar speakers.

Designed and Engineered in the U.S.A.

Boy they sure worded that in a way that could be , was, misleading.

These subs will be a lot more efficient for the same power than planar speakers

Roger that.

I always said when I first got my system, that the volume control within live performance levels
merely made the sound stage more present, not so much, louder. I curse the day these speakers need servicing.
The ONLY reason I'm in search of higher SPL is bass performance at normal theatrical reproduction levels
as well as some bass ridden soundtracks. Besides that, I'm good. I don't entertain a lot, so the majority
of the sweet spot issue, is actually a clever self centered lone love of a higher octave/image

 

[Acoustat]

so how much amplification are these High Level Inputs capable of?

 

[shadyJ]

They don't care how much power you give them, they do not draw current from the inputs. You could use very low amplification just fine. Some of these high level inputs also lead to a more gradual upper frequency roll off as well. I don't know if that is the case with the Hsu or Rythmik subs, you would have to contact them to find out.

 

[Acoustat]

Well I'm still lost on the 200Hz deal. Both subs offer that yet am steered towards the HSU because it offers that wide bandwidth.
Is the octave above the speaker crossover of 100Hz simply a blending method?
Both the panels and the sub, would both be carrying 100.1Hz - 200Hz per say?

Why is a downward firing vented sub recommended now? (VTF-2 MK4)
If I were looking at 2 identical subs, one down one forward facing
I wouldn't think twice about getting the forward, though they say bass is non directional
I think that's more the deeper end of things, which I reckon. would translate to, I prefer
the idea of stereo subwoofers both for HT and for music. My mind just works that way.
I'm sure there's a ton of info behind these couple of questions, and most will go unanswered.
I do not expect to be schooled entirely on the subjects I bring up, but I am like a sponge here
really enjoying the input I'm getting. It's a bit confusing to suddenly change direction to a ported
sub, but at the same time, exciting. I've already looked up a place to audition Martin Logans
while we're on our Fall trip to New England. I bought the Acoustats because I could not afford
the ML Monoliths. They started at $5K/pr in the 80's. Now the similar sized speaker is $26K
My God, what happened???

 

[shadyJ]

The Hsu subs all extend to 200 Hz, however I don't know how you can low pass them on the high level inputs. Their internal crossovers only reach up to 90 hz. The Rythmiks only reach up past 80 Hz in their LFE input. As for front-firing vs down-firing, that doesn't make any difference with subwoofer bass. The only reason the VTF2 is being recommended to you is because two of them almost fits your budget, and you will want two subs instead of just one. When I look at your NAD 1700 pre-amp, I would just use a y-splitter on the pre-amp outputs and bring the extra signals to the subs line level inputs. Then you can use a high pass filter like this one to stop your Acoustat speakers from attempting to play the bass frequencies that the subwoofer should handle.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hmmm, there's a lot of info to process and both subs sound like winners.
What I like about the HSU subs is made in USA.
The direct servo sounds like a great way to clean up reradiated bass in the Rythmik.
I will be purchasing my AVR 1st, then a subwoofer. After Christmas, I can use a bonus for a second woofer.

I should ask at this point…what are high pass inputs…amplified signal from amp? if so, how amplified are we talking?
That's one thing the HSU has going for it, but the Rythmik has a lot of tuning tools. Like I said, a lot of info to sort through.


I noticed that immediately and wandered if I was missing something.


…but doesn't the Rythmik have the same ability, particularly with the AVR bass mgt?
This info is precisely where I was going with this thread, thank you. OP asking if I could do better for less.
But…is one really better than the other? They both have great attributes, and this my friends, is the only
form of auditioning of them I can do, based on your experiences with them, and knowledge of the product as a whole
That is, aside from the 30 day in home Guarantee trial period which I'd rather do it right the 1st time especially with
adding a sub down the road…matched.

Ok the HSU, TLS, isn't that a ported sub? You said I needed to go with a sealed sub to accompany my speakers.
Secondly, though my speakers aren't real "loud" if I open my Eq and start subtracting the bass curve I normally run
I can easily run some 750W peaks and the neighbors down over the hill raise Cain. I would for that, consider this
VTF-2 MK4 @ 250W continuous a little under par to accompany and enhance my speakers.
(750W peaks are visually watching the onboard analog power meters, not a digital power meter)

The HSU sub graphs dual and single port frequency response, but not with the sealed option.
I wander why?

jcparks recommended the ULS 15, a bit more than I need, but I'd rather more than not enough.
The Dayton kit is a no go for me.

Also TLS I understand I cannot use an active sub with my current setup. I'm just saying, that if I were to get 2 subs
I could not afford to do HT and they would have to be passive subs. Then HT surround would be, well, different, but doable, later .

This being able to bypass the subwoofers crossover and use the AVR is really genius. If a sub is capable of 220Hz
why do they only cross up to 90 Hz on the sub itself?

I have this CD from Carver from when I got my speakers and db meter to help setup the 15x30 living room
at my parents house back then. It's the Carver Sonic Holography Test Disk found at their site and might be
of interest for test tones for someone out there.

http://thecarversite.com/yetanotherforum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=407

It was pretty cool back then and I'm sure has a place nowadays too, though AVRs make setups a snap as compared.

This is a simple proposition.

You can not use a down firing sub.

You need a crossover of at least 100 Hz to offload your panels, higher if we can manage it.

That means the sub must blend with your panels. Crossovers are not brick wall filters, and you need a bandwidth of at least an octave above the crossover point or the sub will not blend properly.

The HSU sub has a circuit to control Q and will operate as a low Q device. This means that the loading will be precise and defined. It will not spread like goo all over the place.

Now you will not use the crossover on the sub, you will use the line input connected to the LFE out on the receiver.

Then you set the crossover point on your receiver. You will only have to worry that you set the level and phase control correctly on the subs.

Now you can let Audyssey set speaker levels and distances.

The HSU I think will work fine for you and two are basically within your budget.

You really do need to replace the NAD with a receiver to offload your panels and send the correct signal to the sub.

There are a lot of well meaning people here who have no idea how to go about what you need to get the best integration of planar electrostatic panels and a sub, and also the unique problems of electrostatic speakers in particular.

The object is to get your nice legacy system updated and able to function in a music and HT environment.

At the same time we need to solve your need for greater spl, without blowing up your panels, which can easily be done with an ill thought out scheme.

So you need a sub, that can have its internal crossover by passed using the line input. It needs to be front firing, be low Q and have a bandwidth of at least an octave above 100 Hz and preferably higher to give you greater flexibility to further off load your panels.

You need a receiver with at least 2.1 preouts.

Do this and you will be set, and likely enjoy this system for many years to come.

Hook up and set up with the right equipment will be very straightforward.

 

[GranteedEV]

Hey Acoustat. Here's my suggestion. Build a pair of subs yourself.

2 of these drivers With their copper sleeve / low inductance, and low fs they will have no difficulty digging plenty deep while playing high well.
2 of these enclosures with the corresponding cutout.
1 of these amplifiers.
2 tubes of this
6 to 7 of these