Can a speaker ever perfectly replicate live music?

[av_phile]

Maybe we're not yet at that point where a 3-dimensional sonic image can be exactly duplicated. We're close though. I've listened to an SACD release of an acoustical performance by Al De Moela, John McLaughlin and Paco Lucia, and I was convinced. In fact it sounded so real, I thought Al de Meola was going to tap me on the shoulder and ask me if I'd like a beer.

Take multi-channel SACD as the format, or DVD-audio for that matter, or even 2-channel 24bit CD.

Austin Powers of Audio

Many of the DVD-A, DTS-CD and SACD I've heard do sound gorgeous and realistic. But some mixes have an artificiality that you do not find in a live performance. Like panning the percussions across all the channels and back. That's like the musician was running around the room while playing. How many times do you see something like that in the concert hall?

I have no problem with that. It does create an entirely novel and engaging listening experience. And it can be entertaining for sure. It only goes to show that studios have recognized that home playback listening doesn't have to mimic live as it can take on an entirely new emotional or listening dimension as compared with what you get in a live concert hall. The makers of Sonus Faber speakers have realized it a futile exercise to make their speakers transparent, neutral and accurate. To them, there is no such thing as a transparent, neutral or accurate system, once the sounds get to your ears. Instead, they capitalize on their coloration. By making their speakers pleasantly coloured, they capture a certain segment of the audiophile market who finds their special coloration totally euphonic and highly listenable at length. They hew close to this philosophy that home listening can offer more excitement and need not be confined to mimicking the real thing, which to them can never be achieved. Not that I subscribe to such a philosophy as it goes counter to the Hi-Fi playback objective. But it has some value.

 

[Mudcat]

I've read and reread most of the responses and now feel that I (not you or anyone else) am the luckiest guy around. My wife is a cellist, her best friend is the princple cellist of the Kennedy Center Opera Orchestra here in DC, another very good friend is a violist in the National Symphony, several friends are very good violinists and violists. A friends husband is the bass player for/at Kinkeads in DC and his buddy is the piano player there too. Somewhere in the mix is an oboe and clarinet player. No drummers (percussionists for you dilatantes). My wife is a Julliard grad, with training in cello and piano. We have a 9' Steinway D, and a 52" Boston Upright. She has a 150 year old German cello and a modern Michael Weiler cello. And they all come over to jam at our house because it is the only one big enough to hold everybody. That's my provenance (I had no idea this is what I was marrying into).

When I want to hear chamber music, I listen to my wife and her friends play Bach, Vavaldi, Verdi.

When I want to hear jazz I listen to my wife and here friends around the upright paino.

When I want to hear a home symphony, I listen to my wife and her friends around the Steinway D.

When I want to hear a real symphony, I bug to wife to score some tickets.

Or I can just listen to my wife (and five year old daughter who tries to emulate mom on a quarter size violin I made her).

To bad they can't play rock worth a dam.

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

Mudcat, I'm inviting myself to your next soiree!

BTW, your sig line is sick. I mean that as a compliment

 

[rgriffin25]

I really think it boils down to how good your imagination is. If you are truely happy with your current configuration this realism can easily be achieved. I am currently finishing up a degree in Music performance (Double Bass). Even though I don't have a degree from Juliard, my classical training is quite extensive. I can say that even with the recent improvements (SACD and DVD-A) we have a long way to go to acheive the same quality of a live performance. I am not saying this applies to all genres of music. I will say nothing beats being on the stage or in the seats at a Symphony hall.

 

[O'Shag]

I've read and reread most of the responses and now feel that I (not you or anyone else) am the luckiest guy around. My wife is a cellist, her best friend is the princple cellist of the Kennedy Center Opera Orchestra here in DC, another very good friend is a violist in the National Symphony, several friends are very good violinists and violists. A friends husband is the bass player for/at Kinkeads in DC and his buddy is the piano player there too. Somewhere in the mix is an oboe and clarinet player. No drummers (percussionists for you dilatantes). My wife is a Julliard grad, with training in cello and piano. We have a 9' Steinway D, and a 52" Boston Upright. She has a 150 year old German cello and a modern Michael Weiler cello. And they all come over to jam at our house because it is the only one big enough to hold everybody. That's my provenance (I had no idea this is what I was marrying into).

Hey Mudcat. That is really Cellisimo!

My baby sister was until recently the principal solo violinist for the Irish National Youth Orchestra. At 23 she's now an old foguey and 'retired' from the Youth Orchestra. The conductor James Levine took a shine to her and offered her a scholarship to the Julliard School of Music in NY (I understand one of the very finest), and I wish she had taken it so I could see her more often. Instead she chose to go to 'the land of Mojo', that is to say Italia, She was living in Rome but now in Florence, where she is training with a master violinist there. She's probably gained a few pounds from eating pasta!

Best,

O'Shag

Austin Powers of Audio

 

[O'Shag]

Many of the DVD-A, DTS-CD and SACD I've heard do sound gorgeous and realistic. But some mixes have an artificiality that you do not find in a live performance. Like panning the percussions across all the channels and back. That's like the musician was running around the room while playing. How many times do you see something like that in the concert hall?

AV Phile,

Your right. There are a lot of second-rate recordings out there, where the sound is not quite right. I would say over 50% of my music collection qualifies. Its made me more aware of how critical the recording quality is to acheiving a close to accurate presentation from the speakers. For bad recordings, Sonus Fabers idea on light colouration to achieve a sonically pleasing effect might be ok, but for a well recorded album, less colouration has the advantage of an honest reproduction. I think Sonus Fabers are a very quality speaker though.

 

[dontsleep]

Impossible with todays equipment.
Example: Someone plays a peice of music on an acoustic guitar.Then he or she plays the same peice of music on a different acoustic guitar.
Those two guitars may sound very different.

Now take a recording of either one of those guitars and play it through an amplifier and speakers.
The sound will never be the same because the musician played the music live on another actual guitar and it wasnt the same as the first one!So how do we think a loudspeaker with a totally different phisical makeup could possibly produce the same sound as the guitar?

 

[JoeE SP9]

NOoooooo! Not in the past. Not now. Not in the forseable future. Drink a couple of Chimays while listening and fuhgetaboudit. "Don't worry, be happy". Thank you Bobby McFerrin.

 

[WmAx]

I thought since another thread was meanering off in this general direction, I'd start a new thread. Do you feel the best loudspeakers of today are to to being able or are able to perfectly replicate a live event? If not, how close are they now, as a percentage? How good can a preproduction be?

If if can be done, then how many speakers will it require?

I'm sure you guys have some opinions!

This is a tough one. Let's examine several perspectives:

(1) Perfect Replication of Original Event(confirmable by DBT(figuring out how to do this DBT is another new issue in itself!))

Maybe in the distant future. THis requires so many issues to be addressed - I don't even think this has been done in a lab.

(2) Perceptually 'Real' Playback of An Event

This is more rational and achievable, it seems. Hollman's 10.2 recording/playback system has elicted nearly unaminous praise in regards to it sounding like 'reality'. This system uses conventional speakers, but along with specialized placement and recording standards. This systm could potentially offer reliable/consistant realistic performance.

Besides this, I have heard limited examples on a 2 channel stereo that sounded realistic. However, this is a purely subjetive impression. It was accomplished on speakers that demonstrated near-omnipolar dispersion characterisitics and with a very limited selection of purist acoustical recordings. Even if this was more than just my imagination, it would not be a reliable method for reproduction. Most hi-end stereos I've heard were not really that impressive(too me). Only tht one examples actually sounded(imagined?) realistic too me. The 10.2 system on the other hand appears to be a potential solution that is realizable. But since special recording standards are required in order elicit the proper results, I question the acceptability in the current market. Currently thier is no standard for music recording/mastering/etc..

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

John Dunlavy used to have papers concerning this sort of issue on his site(now the compnay is closed, papers gone). In one, he was summarizing of a blind test that pitted recording of a musican vs. the musician.

The recording was made in an anechoic chamber.

The speakers were positioned away from walls.

Musician(s) placed in center of speakers.

Acoustically trasparent curtain was placed in front of the speakers/musician(s).

Test subjects could not reliably pick out which one was speakers vs. musician.

This test, of course, was simplistic and limited since it did not enter into the equation reproduction of reverberant environments.

-Chris

Impossible with todays equipment.
Example: Someone plays a peice of music on an acoustic guitar.Then he or she plays the same peice of music on a different acoustic guitar.
Those two guitars may sound very different.

Now take a recording of either one of those guitars and play it through an amplifier and speakers.
The sound will never be the same because the musician played the music live on another actual guitar and it wasnt the same as the first one!So how do we think a loudspeaker with a totally different phisical makeup could possibly produce the same sound as the guitar?

 

[Rob Babcock]

Who hasn't at some point been startled by a sound on a DVD or CD that you thought was someone in the room? I agree that interaction with the room is the greatest obstacle, and I'm not surprised that given a single instrument in an anechoic chamber people couldn't tell live from a speaker.

 

[dontsleep]

John Dunlavy used to have papers concerning this sort of issue on his site(now the compnay is closed, papers gone). In one, he was summarizing of a blind test that pitted recording of a musican vs. the musician.

The recording was made in an anechoic chamber.

The speakers were positioned away from walls.

Musician(s) placed in center of speakers.

Acoustically trasparent curtain was placed in front of the speakers/musician(s).

Test subjects could not reliably pick out which one was speakers vs. musician.

This test, of course, was simplistic and limited since it did not enter into the equation reproduction of reverberant environments.

-Chris

hmmmm. Ok,I didnt think that was possible.Well Ya learn something new everyday!

 

[av_phile]

The Objective of Hi-Fi PLAYBACK at home is to accurately reproduce a recording. Not to sound like the real thing. Capturing the real thing as realistically as possible is the OBjective of Hi-Fi RECORDING. The two are separate. And while the two objectives are supposed to achieve a seamless transition from a live performance to a home playback, the real world often leaves the two on disparate plains. Firstly, the recording can be miles away already. Then comes the playback gears and the interaction with room accoustics. What the listening ear gets can be much farther away from the real sounds that went into the microphones.

But leave that aside and let me say that a solo recital, be it with a guitar, a violin, flute, piano, etc. properly recorded on their own, can sound realistic on the most exacting set of home playback gears in a well treated room. Except perhaps a Church pedal organ. If the recording was done on a airy stage, the theater ambience can betray the reality. The illusion of the piano played right in front of you may be too artifical to sound like it is right there. Otheriwse, if it was recorded with little reverb, like in a small room, up in your face, the illusion of realism sets in.

I once had a class where I could hear piano playing in another room. On some occasions, the piano was real. On others, it was a stereo being played for a humanities music appreaciation class. Frankly, I couldn't tell when the real stuff was being played.

But with a full orchestra in full might, it get's kinda easy to spot the difference, except perhaps in the most powerful set-up that can deliver the same decibels as what a conductor gets on the podium - 120db. But even then, somehow I get listening fatigue. Courtesy of those high order harmonic distortions inherent in playback amps. That makes the difference really. One doesn't get listening fatigue from a real orchestral performance at a hall. The conductor doesn't.