Biwire speaker cable. Is it worth it?

mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Please note that although I did say "this was the best explanation I've heard (for biwiring)", I didn't say whether I thought it was a good explanation ;).
Hey, what a man:D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I will try to keep an open mind...
Yes, just don't let everything fall into it; then, nothing has meaning as they all are equal in value.
Carl Sagan said something like this in one of his lectures in Pasadena a while back :D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Here's what Alan Lofft from Axiom says:
So, this seems to be the effect you're describing, but apparently they've tested and not found any audible differences.
Except amps are voltage sources, 30+ volts at the rails. Yes, that voltage also creates a current flow as well.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Keep in mind that some people Bi-Amp their speakers, using two amps to power each channel (one for high frequencies, and one for bass frequencies). This, depending on crossover scheme, can have audiable improvement. But you're right, the speaker companies, especially high end ones, don't want to alienate some of their audiophile customers who believe that bi-wiring has significant benefits.
Yes, but bi-amping with the passive crossover network gives minimal benefits.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
In the example I described, the circuits are:

Amp -- wire -- woofer crossover -- woofer
Amp -- wire -- tweeter crossover -- tweeter

It does not matter on which end of the wires the crossovers are located. If no current is drawn by either the tweeter or the woofer because the crossover selectively filters it out, then the whole circuit is inactive. Even if the voltage is high at the amp terminals, zero current × high voltage = zero work.
Crossovers have a certain design slope how sharply they cut off the unwanted bands, 6dB/octave 18dB/octave, etc. This allows certain amount of current flow into the drivers that is not desired, so in essence, each wire will have some amount of out of band current flow, depending on that crossover slope. 6db/octave having more than the 18dB, of course.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Who am I to say that someone who believes one thing is wrong and that I am right. .
Then, everyone is right, no matter what???
How can that be? Someone must be wrong, no? Or, because we can believe in anything, we have that right to believe even if what is believed is incorrect, not based in reality of the natural world?
 
Haoleb

Haoleb

Audioholic Field Marshall
Look, I have better things to do than sit around posting on forums telling people they are stupid for thinking bi-wiring makes any difference and that they should read this article or that article to prove my point. If someone wants to take the initiative to disregard my advice that I tried it and I didnt notice a difference and they still want to try it because they think they can hear a difference, Well Hallelujah someone wants to thing for themselves.

Hallelujah, Hallelujah,Hallelujah .........Hallelujah!!!

Ya feel me?:)
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
Then, everyone is right, no matter what???
How can that be? Someone must be wrong, no? Or, because we can believe in anything, we have that right to believe even if what is believed is incorrect, not based in reality of the natural world?
If I tell you "you can't fly" and you say "I believe that I can.", that is your right. If you actually decide to try it, though, don't whine to me about the consequences.
The world works the way that it does. It couldn't care less what we choose to believe or not believe about it.
 
zhimbo

zhimbo

Audioholic General
Look, I have better things to do than sit around posting on forums telling people they are stupid for thinking bi-wiring makes any difference and that they should read this article or that article to prove my point.
There's no need to call someone stupid - this is complicated stuff - but there's EVERY reason to provide legitimate information concerning the topic at hand. It isn't about "proving your point", it's about addressing the actual information that exists regarding the topic at hand.

Some things are a matter of opinion. Some are a matter of physics.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
Not really. No, not at all.

Belief in God is faith driven. Anyone who puts their faith in science despite all proof to the contrary is a fool. Oddly enough, Paradigm, as mtrycrafts has pointed out, still recommends biwiring because of the theoretical advantages.
I'm talking about faith in biwiring, not science. Paradigm, doesn't recommend biwiring. They simply make their products capable of employing the technique for those who wish to do so. Not exactly the same thing.

I know it's hard to fly in the face of all that belief and faith, but I have actually conducted blind listening tests personally. My results were exactly the same as all the other blind listening tests. It is impossible to tell a biwired speaker from one that is not biwired without knowing which is which. They sound exactly the same. No subtle difference, no golden eared difference. There simply is no audible difference at all despite any theoretical advantages.
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
In a way it is. Science has never proved nor disproved the existence of God so it remains a belief. Bi-wiring has been disproved by science so it is also a belief.
Huh?:confused: I agree that something which has not been proven or disproven belongs in the realm of faith. Something which has been proven (or disproven), however, is a fact (or non-fact) and therefore not a matter of faith.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
Having a hard day explaining things today. Since biwiring has been disproved by science, then it is only in the realm of faith and belief. That's all I said. Sorry to confuse.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Having a hard day explaining things today. Since biwiring has been disproved by science, then it is only in the realm of faith and belief. That's all I said. Sorry to confuse.
Disproved by science in what way?
Thanks.
 
zhimbo

zhimbo

Audioholic General
Disproved by science in what way?
Thanks.

Properly controlled tests do not indicate audible differences - people can not discern biwired from non-biwired.

Granted, I've seen only a little actual data, but I've never seen a biwiring proponent offer the results of a properly controlled listening test to support their claim. They seem to rely exclusively on anecdotal reports.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Paradigm, doesn't recommend biwiring. They simply make their products capable of employing the technique for those who wish to do so. Not exactly the same thing..
Well, it has been a while since I read one of their speaker manuals but have seen it in the past and they indeed have a paragraph or two on it implying it should be used.
It is not like they don't say anything about it in their manual.
But, they could have pulled it out of the manuals since I have seen it in the past.
I guess I probably could look for an on line manual? :eek:

ps:

from their faq

Q11 Should I Bi-wire or Bi-amp my Paradigm® Speakers?
Bi-wiring/bi-amping can improve clarity, detail and bass response. And since bi-wiring only requires another set of speaker cables, this can be a very inexpensive option to consider. Bi-amping requires a second amplifier and is thus more costly. Both bi-wiring and bi-amping is covered in detail in the owners manual of Paradigm® models that have this option.
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
Paradigm still says this in their manual but what else to you expect them to say? Maybe..."we included 2 sets of binding posts for each speaker for no reason what-so-ever".:eek:

Well, it has been a while since I read one of their speaker manuals but have seen it in the past and they indeed have a paragraph or two on it implying it should be used.
It is not like they don't say anything about it in their manual.
But, they could have pulled it out of the manuals since I have seen it in the past.
I guess I probably could look for an on line manual? :eek:

ps:

from their faq

Q11 Should I Bi-wire or Bi-amp my Paradigm® Speakers?
Bi-wiring/bi-amping can improve clarity, detail and bass response. And since bi-wiring only requires another set of speaker cables, this can be a very inexpensive option to consider. Bi-amping requires a second amplifier and is thus more costly. Both bi-wiring and bi-amping is covered in detail in the owners manual of Paradigm® models that have this option.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Paradigm still says this in their manual but what else to you expect them to say? Maybe..."we included 2 sets of binding posts for each speaker for no reason what-so-ever".:eek:
Or, just for the customers preferred use?
That would be more neutral on their part instead of suggestions of support for its benefit and use.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
Properly controlled tests do not indicate audible differences - people can not discern biwired from non-biwired.

Granted, I've seen only a little actual data, but I've never seen a biwiring proponent offer the results of a properly controlled listening test to support their claim. They seem to rely exclusively on anecdotal reports.

I've run the tests myself. I arrived at the same conclusion that every other blind test found and that is that biwiring does not result in changes in audible sound. Science has categorically proven biwiring to be a meritless technique.

I spent 40 years as an audiophile and I was affected by placebo effect just like every other other audiophile. I heard what I thought I should hear or what I wanted to hear. It happens to everyone. There aren't any golden ears, just placebo effect. I got over it one day when I bought a thick, expensive power cord and couldn't hear an audible difference. That started a whole string of blind tests which, in the end, cured me of audiophilia. Now I listen to music instead of equipment. Most of my listening is done with a digital music server playing 320khz MP3's. That would get an audiophile to turn up his nose but the music performances are just as good as they always were. Non audiophiles who hear my system marvel at how good it sounds. It is all just a matter of perspective.

The astounding thing to me is that audiophiles refuse to understand or accept what science tells them about their techiques, their equipment or the way their hearing and brains function. A whole industry is built on a rejection of the placebo effect. It's really amazing to me.

I've trained myself well enough that I can now listen around the placebo effect much of the time. When things aren't audible, I don't hear them very often. I generally check things with a blind test but, overall, I've learned to overcome and manage the placebo effect. It isn't hard to do. Conduct 40 or 50 blind listening tests and you'll see what I mean. When I talk to an audiophile and debate the audibility of things like biwiring or digital cables or power cords, the response I always get is that something is defective with my hearing. The audiophile can hear better than I can. I can beleive what I like, he believes his ears. It is the response I get every time. I used to respond that way myself. Unfortunately it isn't a useful or accurate response.


An entire industry is built on people hearing what they want to hear rather than what they really hear when nothing subjective is included in the hearing. It really is amazing. It has been going on for decades. Sorry for the rant.
 
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