Biwire speaker cable. Is it worth it?

[zhimbo]

The question of if there is a difference or not is something you would have to find out for yourself.

On the other hand, I hold that there is such a thing as objective reality, and as far as I've seen the evidence on the topic is very, very clear.

I assume you're just trying to be diplomatic, but I think it hurts discussion to assume that anyone who has an opinion has a valid opinion (other than on truly subjective topics of taste, etc.).

 

[zumbo]

I can see why you might think that both wires carry a full range signal because the wires are upstream from the speaker's crossover. But it isn't so.

To be biwirable, a 2-way speaker (just to keep things simple) must have it's crossover separated into two independant networks, one for the woofer and one for the tweeter. One wire connects the amp to the woofer's crossover network, and the other wire connects the amp to the tweeter's crossover network.

If a signal is at a lower frequency than the crossover point, it is passed by the woofer's network straight through to the woofer. But the same signal encounters high resistance from the tweeter's crossover network and never reaches the tweeter. No current is drawn through the tweeter's circuit, including the wire upstream from the crossover network.

Like I said earlier, I must be nuts to answer a biwire question...

I understand all of that, but both sets of speaker wires are full-range until they get to the speaker. They are not separate, as I interpreted this statement.

With biwiring, one speaker cable carries the bass to the woofer, and the other carries the treble to the tweeter.

 

[Swerd]

I understand all of that, but both sets of speaker wires are full-range until they get to the speaker. They are not separate, as I interpreted this statement.

OK, I'll modify my statement: "With biwiring, one speaker cable carries the bass to the woofer, and the other carries the treble to the tweeter." to say instead:

With biwiring, one speaker cable carries current for the bass signal to the woofer, and the other carries current for the treble signal to the tweeter.

Biwiring is really not worth this much discussion. I think we both understand eachother.

 

[zumbo]

Biwiring is really not worth this much discussion.

I think it is. I was very interested in what you were saying about EMF. Just didn't get this part.

OK, I'll modify my statement: "With biwiring, one speaker cable carries the bass to the woofer, and the other carries the treble to the tweeter." to say instead:

With biwiring, one speaker cable carries current for the bass signal to the woofer, and the other carries current for the treble signal to the tweeter.

It reads that "speaker cable" (actual wires from receiver/amp to speaker) are carrying crossed-over signals to the speakers.

Scratch that. It does read better now.

 

[Haoleb]

On the other hand, I hold that there is such a thing as objective reality, and as far as I've seen the evidence on the topic is very, very clear.

I assume you're just trying to be diplomatic, but I think it hurts discussion to assume that anyone who has an opinion has a valid opinion (other than on truly subjective topics of taste, etc.).

Who am I to say that someone who believes one thing is wrong and that I am right. Just because most of the people on this forum believe one thing doesnt mean its true. Just because it cant be explained by science doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

Its like asking the question if god exists. Can it be explained by science? No. Do some people believe there is such a thing? Yes. Many. Do some people believe there is no such thing? Sure are. Whos right? who really cares, If someone wants to try either belief and sticks to one side, awesome. At least the guy is going to try it for himself and see if he can hear a difference or not. Either way hes not out much money and hes got himself some new wires. everybody wins.

If i just believed what everybody said on forums, and in the case of this one I would probably have some pro amp, a GPX dvd player (which i would also use for cd's) and the cheapest cable i could come across. Well I dont. And thats fine with me. Dont let it bother you.

 

[Swerd]

I think it is. I was very interested in what you were saying about EMF. Just didn't get this part.

It reads that "speaker cable" (actual wires from receiver/amp to speaker) are carrying crossed-over signals to the speakers. You must be refering to the internal wiring in the speaker cabinet?

In the example I described, the circuits are:

Amp -- wire -- woofer crossover -- woofer
Amp -- wire -- tweeter crossover -- tweeter

It does not matter on which end of the wires the crossovers are located. If no current is drawn by either the tweeter or the woofer because the crossover selectively filters it out, then the whole circuit is inactive. Even if the voltage is high at the amp terminals, zero current × high voltage = zero work.

 

[zumbo]

If i just believed what everybody said on forums, and in the case of this one I would probably have some pro amp, a GPX dvd player (which i would also use for cd's) and the cheapest cable i could come across. Well I dont. And thats fine with me. Dont let it bother you.

A Bose Wave Radio sounds like an entire Orchestra.

 

[zumbo]

In the example I described, the circuits are:

Amp -- wire -- woofer crossover -- woofer
Amp -- wire -- tweeter crossover -- tweeter

It does not matter on which end of the wires the crossovers are located. If no current is drawn by either the tweeter or the woofer because the crossover selectively filters it out, then the whole circuit is inactive. Even if the voltage is high at the amp terminals, zero current × high voltage = zero work.

I am with you. I edited my previous post.

 

[Swerd]

I am with you. I edited my previous post.

Good, because I was running out of ways to explain this .

 

[PJ612]

Definitely

Ever since I got my Paradigms a few years ago, I never biwired the fronts. I want to upgrade my speaker cable for the fronts to biwire. That said, here are my questions:

1. Is it worth it to bi-wire? Is the sound difference that noticeable?

2. Which brand should I go with where it won't cost me an arm and a leg?

You can hear the difference, ONLY if you have hearing of GOD!

 

[zhimbo]

Its like asking the question if god exists. .

Actually, it is nothing at all like asking if god exists.

It is more like asking "Is treatment X effective at relieving pain?".

It's very much like asking that question.

 

[zhimbo]

OK, I'll modify my statement: "With biwiring, one speaker cable carries the bass to the woofer, and the other carries the treble to the tweeter." to say instead:

Here's what Alan Lofft from Axiom says:

If you look at the amplifier as a current source, then for amplifiers and receivers that are capable of supplying lots of current into low impedances, biwiring could offer theoretical advantages, particularly to loudspeakers that are linear and smooth, like the Axiom M80ti and M60ti, by eliminating potential intermodulation distortion between the low- and high-frequency portions of the audio signal. Using biwiring, this distortion would not occur because the low-frequency part of the speaker crossover would draw the current it needs for the woofers (and they need lots of current) through one speaker cable, while the midrange tweeter section would draw less current (it doesn't need as much) through its own speaker cable. This could prevent intermodulation distortion that may occur using one big “fire hose” or single speaker cable. (Using two cables per speaker will also lower total resistance to the audio signal—and that is well and good, although a single run of 12-gauge cable to each speaker will keep resistance to an insignificant level, well below 0.3 ohms.)

Will it sound any different if you biwire? Some users think it does, but I've never heard any differences, nor have any of our laboratory measurements or scientifically controlled double blind listening tests ever demonstrated there are audible differences. Axiom includes the extra terminals as a nod to those enthusiasts who believe that biwiring results in audible benefits and for the bi-ampers.

So, this seems to be the effect you're describing, but apparently they've tested and not found any audible differences.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Ever since I got my Paradigms a few years ago, I never biwired the fronts. I want to upgrade my speaker cable for the fronts to biwire. That said, here are my questions:

1. Is it worth it to bi-wire? Is the sound difference that noticeable?

2. Which brand should I go with where it won't cost me an arm and a leg?

After all the inputs, I just want to make a comment since these are Paradigms. Their manual suggests bi-wiring.
I called their engineering/tech department a number of years ago now if they can support this recommendation through DBT listening testing?
I asked because Paradigm is a company who performs DBT to test their speakers refinements.
In the end, they cannot support it through the same rigor that they use on their speakers.

 

[fmw]

Yes, you're right, the cables do converge at the receiver's binding posts. Still, separating biwire cables, rather than bundling them together can minimize any induced EMI between them.

Please note that although I did say "this was the best explanation I've heard (for biwiring)", I didn't say whether I thought it was a good explanation .

EMI? That must be the term audiophiles use to describe RFI when the frequencies involved can't radiate from the wire.

 

[fmw]

Actually, it is nothing at all like asking if god exists.

It is more like asking "Is treatment X effective at relieving pain?".

It's very much like asking that question.

In a way it is. Science has never proved nor disproved the existence of God so it remains a belief. Bi-wiring has been disproved by science so it is also a belief.

 

[Johnd]

In a way it is. Science has never proved nor disproved the existence of God so it remains a belief. Bi-wiring has been disproved by science so it is also a belief.

Not really. No, not at all.

Belief in God is faith driven. Anyone who puts their faith in science despite all proof to the contrary is a fool. Oddly enough, Paradigm, as mtrycrafts has pointed out, still recommends biwiring because of the theoretical advantages.

 

[Davemcc]

Science will never prove the existence of God.
Faith will never disprove the science of existence.

If you feel, believe, hope, dream or have faith that bi-wiring will help you, by all means do it despite the lack of scientific credibility to back your decision.

 

[Swerd]

Thanks for that post. I'm glad to read that at least one speaker manufacturer says it cannot find an audible benefit from biwiring. It seems that many other speaker manufacturers are unwilling to take on this often repeated but unverified myth. They would rather avoid the subject, install two pairs of binding posts, and let their potential customers do as they please.

 

[obscbyclouds]

They would rather avoid the subject, install two pairs of binding posts, and let their potential customers do as they please.

Keep in mind that some people Bi-Amp their speakers, using two amps to power each channel (one for high frequencies, and one for bass frequencies). This, depending on crossover scheme, can have audiable improvement. But you're right, the speaker companies, especially high end ones, don't want to alienate some of their audiophile customers who believe that bi-wiring has significant benefits.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I must be nuts replying to a biwire question, but here goes anyway .

We all go off the deep end, from time to time

The best explanation I've heard as to why anyone might want to biwire is that the large voice coil/magnet assembly of a woofer generates a reverse voltage as the woofer moves back and forth, called "back EMF". The tweeter also generates back EMF, but it has much less energy to it than the woofer's back EMF.

Here are a few much better explanations for you from Richard Pierce who is very well versed in speakers and electronics:


http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.high-end/msg/9e25180f03c7f4f9?q=author:DPierce@world.std.com+back+emf&start=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&rnum=12

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.tech/msg/9febaf18ece9484b?q=author:DPierce@world.std.com+back+emf&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&rnum=4

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.high-end/msg/df02658d8fed441f?q=author:DPierce@world.std.com+back+emf&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&rnum=2

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.tech/msg/71ca95c6df065c24?q=author:DPierce@world.std.com+back+emf&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&rnum=1

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.high-end/msg/5ac53c1befc02746?q=author:DPierce@world.std.com+back+emf&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&rnum=5

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.high-end/msg/9e25180f03c7f4f9?q=author:DPierce@world.std.com+back+emf&start=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&rnum=12

If there is a single speaker cable, the woofer's back EMF can interfere with the weaker treble information.

If this were the case, then you would have interference from any signal flowing through that wire, no matter how it got into that wire, front emf or back emf.