Beta Tester for New El Cheapo Speaker Needed

[zieglj01]

The cabinet/construction is definitely one place that costs have been cut,

Put a couple of decorative rocks on top of them - to add some mass.

Did he use a regular dome tweeter as a replacement? I am trying to guess
which tweeter he used.

 

[KEW]

Yes, vifa dome.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Thanks for posting your initial reactions. And thanks for putting the cabinet issue in perspective. It's a 6-oz wonder, but when braced it can still function satisfactorily. I'm finishing up an el cheapo monitor that will actually cost more than the mini-towers simply because the cabinet costs more.

I also heard from The Warrior, who apparently listened with you. I wasn't sure what part of the frequency spectrum you thought could have been more forward, and he says it's the treble. He also said that you didn't have them elevated off the floor, which would have had your ears above the tweeter design axis. Any speaker with an even-order Linkwitz-Riley crossover will have a suckout at the crossover frequency as you move above the tweeter axis, and the tweeter and woofer(s) start to go out of phase with each other. Things will sound more focused if you get those things up off the ground (you won't need anyone to help you lift them). Still, the highs are voiced down a bit to avoid any harshness from the tweeters, which are placed at the end of a horn-shaped face plate. My choice of tweeters was very limited because of the small and odd size of the of the tweeter cutout. The Vifa I selected is very clean, but its face plate functions as a mini-wave guide and horizontal dispersion is not as wide as on tweeters with a flatter face plate. Thanks again for taking the time to test drive these.

 

[KEW]

Thanks for posting your initial reactions. And thanks for putting the cabinet issue in perspective. It's a 6-oz wonder, but when braced it can still function satisfactorily. I'm finishing up an el cheapo monitor that will actually cost more than the mini-towers simply because the cabinet costs more.

I also heard from The Warrior, who apparently listened with you. I wasn't sure what part of the frequency spectrum you thought could have been more forward, and he says it's the treble. He also said that you didn't have them elevated off the floor, which would have had your ears above the tweeter design axis. Any speaker with an even-order Linkwitz-Riley crossover will have a suckout at the crossover frequency as you move above the tweeter axis, and the tweeter and woofer(s) start to go out of phase with each other. Things will sound more focused if you get those things up off the ground (you won't need anyone to help you lift them). Still, the highs are voiced down a bit to avoid any harshness from the tweeters, which are placed at the end of a horn-shaped face plate. My choice of tweeters was very limited because of the small and odd size of the of the tweeter cutout. The Vifa I selected is very clean, but its face plate functions as a mini-wave guide and horizontal dispersion is not as wide as on tweeters with a flatter face plate. Thanks again for taking the time to test drive these.

Cool. I knew we had to raise them from my previous PM with you, but Alex did not have anything immediately handy to raise them and this was a very quick and dirty listen.
Great that it may make an appreciable difference! They are very good as is, so any improvement is just icing on the cake!

 

[zieglj01]

I'm finishing up an el cheapo monitor that will actually cost more than the mini-towers simply because the cabinet costs more.

Would that be the New Wave Audio buyout speakers from Parts Express?

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Would that be the New Wave Audio buyout speakers from Parts Express?

No, but I'm always game for a buyout. Do you have a link?

 

[zieglj01]

No, but I'm always game for a buyout. Do you have a link?

Here you go - I am really interested in these speakers, and the boxes have some weight.
They are sold each

https://www.parts-express.com/new-wave-audio-bk-52b-5-1-4-2-way-bookshelf-speaker-black--309-620

https://www.parts-express.com/new-wave-audio-bk-62b-6-1-2-2-way-bookshelf-speaker-black--309-624

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Here you go - I am really interested in these speakers, and the boxes have some weight.
They are sold each

https://www.parts-express.com/new-wave-audio-bk-52b-5-1-4-2-way-bookshelf-speaker-black--309-620

https://www.parts-express.com/new-wave-audio-bk-62b-6-1-2-2-way-bookshelf-speaker-black--309-624

Those are kind of interesting, though I need something that I know will be available on a continuing basis. My design is a mod of the Parts Express BR-1 kit. It uses the same drivers and cabinet, but substitutes an 11-element crossover for the much more basic crossover supplied with the kit. I did a DIY mod for this kit many years ago and kind of forgot about it. The cabinets are quite substantial, and the drivers are very capable if you contour them carefully. You can see my original mod here: http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=pe_br1.html The crossover I just finished does more to suppress the woofer breakup modes and adjusts for some running changes in the drivers. The monitor has deeper bass response than the old Pioneer 52 tower mods I did, and also has more power handling.

 

[zieglj01]

The crossover I just finished does more to suppress the woofer breakup modes and adjusts for some running changes in the drivers. The monitor has deeper bass response than the old Pioneer 52 tower mods I did, and also has more power handling.

I knew about your former mod.

This update now draws my interest - it seems like it would be a good musical beast.

 

[KEW]

The height change made a great improvement! These are very impressive.

I prefer to give meaningful information on the performance of a speaker in the context of a direct comparison. I had ordered a pair of HVL-1's for comparison purposes, but one of the pair was defective (terminal plate mounted upside down & sounded horrible - internal wiring or component issue). For timing, that limits me to local purchase from places with return policies.
The Pioneer FS52's ($130 ea) is considered among the best in this price range and is well know, so I will get a pair for comparison/review...Tuesday morning. Sorry about slow timing. Just happened to be a packed weekend!

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

might be helpful if someone is looking for cheap inductance tester:
http://www.amazon.com/RioRand-LC200A-Inductance-Capacitance-Multimeter/dp/B00GAV6ZRU/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8

also this is multitester, but of unknown precision:
http://www.amazon.com/VC9808-Multimeter-Resistance-Capacitance-Measurement/dp/B00MHKAF38/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8

 

[KEW]

Murphy El Cheapo Tower (ECT) vs Pioneer SP-FS52 (FS52).

The Pioneer is the obvious competitor for the new Towers Dennis Murphy is working on. The Pioneers go for $260/pr. This is about what the ECT’s would cost after shipping. The Pioneers are generally considered to be the best value in their price range.

Setup.
I used two Marantz SR-6001 receivers in Pure Direct Mode and level matched the speakers (using music and adjusting when needed to keep levels matched). Muting one receiver, allowed instant switching every time the mute button is pressed. Speakers were set side by side in an A-B A-B configuration (so width between the pairs of speakers was equal).

On A-B Comparisons of Speakers.
It is always amazing to me! When I have a reasonably good speaker being A-B’ed against a better speaker, the “reasonably good” speaker becomes “unreasonably bad”. It is a strange phenomenon, but I believe it has to do with hearing a more open/realistic/detailed sound, then switching to the lessor speaker… it just sucks, plain and simple. If I was unplugging and switching speakers I don’t think it would be so bad, but hearing the sound quality decrease in the middle of a musical phrase is an obnoxious experience.

I wanted to make this comment because I know there will be a perceived hypocrisy between what I will say about the Pioneers in this review and what I have said in the past (and will likely say in the future). I like the Pioneers and have consistently recommended them as a great speaker in their price class. The ECT’s eclipse them in almost every way. Nonetheless, if a buyer wants immediate gratification of local store pick-up and the security of a free 14 day in-home trial (Best Buy), or if the ECT’s are ruled out for some other reason, I will happily continue to recommend the Pioneers because they are great speakers compared to their competition (aside from the ECT’s).

I have a saying about this, and in the case of these two speakers, it is worded:

“The Pioneer FS52’s are great speakers…as long as you keep the ECT’s out of the room.”

Music.
Music was selected based on the following criteria:
High quality recording
Common (some chance you might know it or have it in your collection)
My personal familiarity with it
Diverse (listening to a wide array of music reveals characteristics that would not be revealed if all tracks were similar)

Note: I provided YouTube links for some songs, but did not check for sound quality of YouTube version. I used CD’s for all review material.

...continued!

 

[KEW]

Comparison (organized by music track).

Pink Floyd - Time (DSOTM). I selected this mainly to get an idea of the high frequency character of the speakers when the alarm clocks and various chimes present a cacophony of resonating metals.
The sound of the ECT’s immediately called attention to their increased level of detail on the sounds of the clock movements prior to the alarms. When the bells started, it gave a more open and full presentation.
I was confused when the toms sounded fuller on the FS52’s! I had already listened enough to know the ECT’s had a fuller, while more accurate sound in the low-mid – bass range. I later listened on Focals and heard that the sound is thin. While they used plenty of reverb in the recording, the FS52’s imparted a resonance somewhat like a kettle drum would have. It was warm and full and I liked it, but it was not accurate.

I found a clip (this is a mock-up, not Pink Floyd, but it gives you the idea of how the toms are a bit thin - if you have good speakers):
If you are the impatient sort, go to 1 minute in.

The main difference through the rest of the song is the ECT’s gave a sense of depth to the stage that made the FS52 sound 2D.

Yes – The Heart of the Sunrise (Fragile). This is a standard of mine. I listen primarily for the unique sound of Chris Squire’s bass, but there have been several times where the unusual instrumentation reveals something unique (this was one of them).

First off, the bass sound was boxy on the FS52’s, sounding more natural and open on the ECT’s. However, the FS52’s sounded better when the song was just Jon Anderson’s vocals, bass, and drums. The high-hat and ride cymbal sounded more present, substantial, and simply better on the Pioneer. Once the rest of the band joined in, the FS52 lost it’s edge! My best notion on this is that the Pioneers have some kind of artificial (I'm guessing at this) treble enhancement that sounds better with some particular content, but reveals itself as "wrong" if there is content involving the frequencies close to the “enhanced” frequencies.

Despite this, the ECT was the clear winner. The Places where the FS52 sounded better, the ECT’s merely did not seem to be playing the full highs. Where the ECT’s sounded better, the FS52 made wrong sounds. I’ll take absent sounds over wrong sounds.

I shared this with Dennis as the one situation where I genuinely preferred the FS52 over the ECT (just for the segments described above) and he shared a FR chart from a stock FS52 with me. You can see how the treble is "overly prominent".

Steely Dan – I Got the News (Aja). I always have Steely Dan in the mix. Their sound is tight and percussive, with sharp attacks, and the recording quality is always very good.
This was easy – The ECT totally dominated with more articulate and deeper bass than the FS52. Midrange articulation was also better on the ECT’s, but it was the bass that really distinguished the ETC’s on this piece!

Chet Atkins – Sunrise (Stay Tuned). Musically, it borders on Muzak, but between George Benson and Chet Atkins, there are some very nicely played light and delicate details in this piece that cause me to like it (despite the Muzak). It is very well recorded and I love the nature of the bass on this piece (especially the contrast of the slap notes).

The ECT captured that bass sound very nicely, while the FS52 sounded comparatively thin and imprecise. The ECT had a transparency in the midrange that really shone with the fast, light, and delicate picking in this song. Again, the ECT’s had a good 3D depth while the FS52’s sounded 2D.

I realize most people would not have this song, so here is a link:

Herbie Hancock – River (River, the Joni Letters). I have found that this song is good at revealing issues with speakers. I’d liken Corinne Bailey Rae to taking Norah Jones voice and raising it about ½ octave. She has high frequencies in her voice that extend on up there. There is also the brushes on the drums and cymbals which doesn’t always sound right, depending on the speakers.
More than anything else I listened to, this song was the FS52’s Achilles heel. It had way too much content in the high frequencies and especially with a voice, the inappropriate balance is obvious. This is a great piece, but I suspect it would fall off of my favorites list if I listened exclusively to the FS52’s. As reflected in the FR chart, The FS52 made the treble way too hot for certain harmonics in her voice. I would even use the words harsh or shouty.
While not perfect with this demanding content, the ECT came across much clearer and gave a presentation that was enjoyable.
I realize most people would not have this song, so here is a link:

Katy Perry – I Kissed a Girl (MTV Unplugged). Pop Katy Perry is a guilty pleasure of mine (though I felt somewhat vindicated when Jon Anderson listed her among his favorite modern singers). I am also a big time fan of acoustic versions…especially for vocals. It keeps them very honest. I believe there are not as many places for a singer to “hide” so they up their game even beyond their normal level of extraordinary! In this particular version of this song, it begins with an upright bass solo which repeats the same phrase so I can listen to the phrase on one speaker, then hear it again on the other. Also love the jazz leanings of this version.

I was surprised that the differences on the introductory bass line were minor (the ECT was better, but not enough difference to give much concern). However, later, when the band joins in, the bass gets lost in the band on the FS52 while it stays it’s own voice on the ECT.

While not so bad as with Corinne’s; Katy’s voice is wrong and the treble was off on the FS52s. The ECT’s managed a much more open and realistic sound.

I realize most Audiholics would not have this song, so here is a link:

Ed Palermo Big Band – RDNZL (Take Your Clothes Off When You Dance). Since I play in a big band, this is where I listen to the instruments I know best.

The better bass of the ECT proved its worth on the drum lead in. It was more solid and had the right weight. Trombone was about equal on both, but alto sax sounded a little kazoo-like on the FS52. ECT came across more natural for alto sax and (to a lesser degree) throughout the song.

Norah Jones – Don’t Know Why (Come Away With Me). Norah has so many subtle nuances in her voice that it is rare to switch between speakers and not hear significant differences in presentations.

In his recent bookshelf review, Alex (The Warrior) talked about how the playfulness in her voice got lost with some of the speakers. That is an excellent description. On good speakers, you can hear subtle nuances in her delivery that make it clear she is not just singing the song beautifully, but she is enjoying the song! Not too many speakers did a good job of capturing that playfulness. The FS52’s do not, but the ECT’s did. In a ~$200-250 speaker, that alone is a feat!

Conclusion.

Is the ECT perfect? Of course not. However, given it’s modest components/budget, it is an incredibly good sounding speaker! As compared to the FS52’s, the ECT’s are clearly better. Only the tipped up treble of the Pioneer can, on rare occasion, make them sound better, but more often that extra treble is a liability. Looking for a fault, I miss the extra detail and highest frequencies of a well-designed metal or ribbon tweeter, but that would come close to tripling the cost of these speakers. The bass is impressively palpable which is, in itself, a real find in such an inexpensive speaker!

I didn’t do anything to push the SPL limits of the ECT’s, but I ran them fairly loud (at the volumes I would normally listen) in a living room with gabled ceiling, and open to dining room and kitchen without any sign of distress.

It is a shame that Dennis was not involved in the original design of these speakers, that way the cost of the original tweeters and crossover components could be avoided.

In the end, I am delighted to report that the standard of quality of sound on a shoestring budget just took a substantial leap forward!

Thank you, Dennis Murphy!

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I'm curious into what's better speakers : ETCs or older AA towers?

 

[afterlife2]

Kurt were these the regular Pio 52's or the Dennis 52's mod? You and Rojo should do reviews more often.

 

[KEW]

I'm curious into what's better speakers : ETCs or older AA towers?

I think it is safe to say that the ECTs have more & better bass, but that doesn't answer your question.

(Also, the ECTs cost about $100 less per pair)

 

[KEW]

Kurt were these the regular Pio 52's or the Dennis 52's mod?

Stock Pio's.

 

[afterlife2]

I thought so. Are you keeping the ECT? Thanks alot for the review. I like Katy too, she is underrated and has a good range. If you get a chance watch the Kacey Musgraves(she is awesome) and Katy Perry Crossroads: http://www.cmt.com/shows/cmt_crossroads/cmt-crossroads-katy-perry-and-kacey-musgraves/1728217/playlist/#id=1728217

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I think it is safe to say that the ECTs have more & better bass, but that doesn't answer your question.

(Also, the ECTs cost about $100 less per pair)

No, not entire question, but a part of it does. thanks

 

[zieglj01]

Murphy El Cheapo Tower (ECT) vs Pioneer SP-FS52 (FS52).

Need to change that name from ECT to DNA - Dayton Now Accurate.

You should have bought one of the former AA speakers - maybe you and
afterlife2 can switch speakers for awhile.