Best speakers for classical music

[GranteedEV]

Dear All,

Thanks for the continued advice. I think if it came down to the KEF 900 / PSB t6, the PSB is $500 cheaper which is a substantial factor to consider. How does the KEF 700 fit into things?

Pretty well! Smaller drivers, but otherwise a very similar speaker. Audition it.

 

[Xytech]

I intend to try a few out before purchasing certainly!

One further question - there is a second hand pair of Rogers LS6 speakers for sale near me for $600 AUD. How do these compare to the speakers mentioned so far in this thread? I imagine they are at least 20 years old, but are apparently quite good speakers? Link below

Link to Rogers LS6

 

[DS-21]

Now regarding the crossfire, I believe it's only to widen the sweet spot, not the soundstage.

No, its primary impact is to the soundstage. With properly controlled-directivity loudspeakers set up as I prefer, cross-fired with the axes meeting ahead of the listening position, they tend to give a mid-hall perspective (depending on the recording). Rotate them such they the axes meet at one's nose, and the perspective becomes more front-row center. Some prefer that.

It definitely doesn't increase lateral reflections except at opposite ends of the room.

That's the point. Delayed lateral reflections (from the opposite side wall) to increase ASW, but fewer early lateral reflections (from the same side wall) to smear the direct sound. It's worth noting that Toole's study of lateral reflections did not distinguish between early and later lateral reflections.

 

[3db]

It's not the Q900, but this is a look at the horizontal off-axis response of a KEF coaxial speaker:

and the PSB T6

The KEF definitely has more attenuated reflections, which I guess would mean the direct sound is more dominant relative to the reflected sound. I would presume this is why it would have a wider sweet spot.

Also, a slight look at the vertical response:
KEF

PSB

Now regarding the crossfire, I believe it's only to widen the sweet spot, not the soundstage. It definitely doesn't increase lateral reflections except at opposite ends of the room.

Reflections can be controlled through room treatments and careful placement can it not? What I'm reading here is that the KEFs are not as senstivie to speaker placement as the PSBs.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for the advice. I guess it is looking more and more like a choice between the ATC's, PSM T6, and QEF 700. Perhaps we can disregard the others.

Here is the Stereophile review of the ATC SCM 11.

 

[GranteedEV]

Reflections can be controlled through room treatments and careful placement can it not? What I'm reading here is that the KEFs are not as senstivie to speaker placement as the PSBs.

Treatments will possibly widen the immediate sweet spot at the cost of "ambience / space"

That's the point. Delayed lateral reflections (from the opposite side wall) to increase ASW, but fewer early lateral reflections (from the same side wall) to smear the direct sound.

I doubt that this delay is long enough though. And since it's arriving into the opposite ear, I fail to see how it widens the soundstage. If anything it would confuse the mind because sounds that are supposed to come from left are arriving at right and vice versa. ADTG says it tightens the center image, though.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think theories are all great to discuss, but in real life, they don't seem to be very dramatic.

I tried the experiment that GranteedEV ask - have my KEF 201/2s angled @ 45 degrees so that they "cross" in front of me.

The only thing I could tell was that the image (vocals) seems to be more dead centered. I do not think it widen the soundstage or anything that dramatic.

I have heard a lot of claims and testimonies about a lot of things in audio, like differences in amps, pre-pros, AVRs, cables, CD/DVD/BD player, DAC, toe-ins, grills off, etc.

In my limited and humble experience, speaker placements can make difference - not always, but they can. And some of the differences they make can be dramatic, but some of them are minute.

For example, moving the Orions far away from the walls seemed dramatic. Moving the Def Tech BP7000 away from walls and aiming their subs away from walls seemed dramatic.

But moving the KEF 201/2, Revel Salon2, and even Infinity P362 around (close to wall, far from wall, angle/toe in, etc.) seemed to make very little difference.

I also remember that my brother's friend Phillip had his Salon2 6 inches from the walls, not toed in at all, and they still sounded superb.

So theories are great and all, but in real life they may not be like you think.

That's how life is, right?

Things never happen exactly the way you plan?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Here is another example of a KEF polar response:

 

[MinusTheBear]

I think theories are all great to discuss, but in real life, they don't seem to be very dramatic.

I tried the experiment that GranteedEV ask - have my KEF 201/2s angled @ 45 degrees so that they "cross" in front of me.

The only thing I could tell was that the image (vocals) seems to be more dead centered. I do not think it widen the soundstage or anything that dramatic.

I have heard a lot of claims and testimonies about a lot of things in audio, like differences in amps, pre-pros, AVRs, cables, CD/DVD/BD player, DAC, toe-ins, grills off, etc.

In my limited and humble experience, speaker placements can make difference - not always, but they can. And some of the differences they make can be dramatic, but some of them are minute.

For example, moving the Orions far away from the walls seemed dramatic. Moving the Def Tech BP7000 away from walls and aiming their subs away from walls seemed dramatic.

But moving the KEF 201/2, Revel Salon2, and even Infinity P362 around (close to wall, far from wall, angle/toe in, etc.) seemed to make very little difference.

I also remember that my brother's friend Phillip had his Salon2 6 inches from the walls, not toed in at all, and they still sounded superb.

So theories are great and all, but in real life they may not be like you think.

That's how life is, right?

Things never happen exactly the way you plan?

Somebody said it before that the Salon2 just revels in the room.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Somebody said it before that the Salon2 just revels in the room.

Who said that?

I think especially for classical music, you want a speaker that has an accurate/flat on-axis frequency response and off-axis/polar response.

So PSB, KEF, Revel, Infinity, & NHT come to my mind because I've heard them.

 

[GranteedEV]

In my limited and humble experience, speaker placements can make difference - not always, but they can. And some of the differences they make can be dramatic, but some of them are minute.

And perhaps they are dramatic, but only on source material that shows the difference, and other source material doesn`t highlight these differences. Like bass for example. Moving my speakers around seriously changes their frequency response. But some recordings sound the same even in the bass. But other recordings sound notably different. And our ability to understand or recognize such differences varies. What I might miss in a level matched A/B side by side comparision with instant switching and careful listening, maybe Dr. Mark, Kevin Voecks, or Dennis Murphy might notice instantly in a general audition to the point of bothering them greatly! For example, I recall TLS Guy saying that EMP 3-way speakers don't have a coherent image and that male vocals sound physically "low", but no matter how hard I try I can't see the difference even next to a 2-way bookshelf. Everything sounds vertically correctly placed to my ears.

I recall someone saying that even the Salk Soundscapes, for example, sound rather similar to the Salk Songtowers on some recordings to the point where it's tough to tell the difference between a $1700 and $14000 speaker, but then on other recordings with the right ambience and bass information, one just transports you to the venue and the other sounds like a great speaker.

 

[cpp]

OP ? what are you using as a source for your classical music, just wondering

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

And perhaps they are dramatic, but only on source material that shows the difference, and other source material doesn`t highlight these differences. Like bass for example. Moving my speakers around seriously changes their frequency response. But some recordings sound the same even in the bass. But other recordings sound notably different. And our ability to understand or recognize such differences varies. What I might miss in a level matched A/B side by side comparision with instant switching and careful listening, maybe Dr. Mark, Kevin Voecks, or Dennis Murphy might notice instantly in a general audition to the point of bothering them greatly! For example, I recall TLS Guy saying that EMP 3-way speakers don't have a coherent image and that male vocals sound physically "low", but no matter how hard I try I can't see the difference even next to a 2-way bookshelf. Everything sounds vertically correctly placed to my ears.

I recall someone saying that even the Salk Soundscapes, for example, sound rather similar to the Salk Songtowers on some recordings to the point where it's tough to tell the difference between a $1700 and $14000 speaker, but then on other recordings with the right ambience and bass information, one just transports you to the venue and the other sounds like a great speaker.

That is true.

And if you can't tell the difference, then I sure as heck can't tell the difference!

Maybe that is why I think the Salon2s, 201/2s, and Orions kind of sound the same in 2.1 on the songs I normally listen to. Perhaps on some other songs, other people with better ears could tell the difference easily.

I don't have trained ears!!!

But I have experienced that some songs sound more alike than other songs.

 

[GranteedEV]

Maybe that is why I think the Salon2s, 201/2s, and Orions kind of sound the same in 2.1 on the songs I normally listen to. Perhaps on some other songs, other people with better ears could tell the difference easily.

Voicing aside, you've got your 201s, Salons, and Orions located in vastly different places in the room. Their measured bass response at the listening position possibly differs by swings as big as 10-15db at different frequencies! Once you finally measure the response, you can maybe pull out musical content that will excite the room mode frequencies (or not) and see what the difference is more clearly.

 

[Xytech]

OP ? what are you using as a source for your classical music, just wondering

I've got an Asus XONAR sound card with an optical feed to my amp - generally I run cds through my computer or (and this is what I eventually intend for all my cds) to rip to flac and then use that.

 

[ook123]

floor-standing speaker has better effect for classic music

 

[DS-21]

Voicing aside, you've got your 201s, Salons, and Orions located in vastly different places in the room. Their measured bass response at the listening position possibly differs by swings as big as 10-15db at different frequencies! Once you finally measure the response, you can maybe pull out musical content that will excite the room mode frequencies (or not) and see what the difference is more clearly.

I think all three would still sound quite similar (because they're all voiced what I consider correctly - for smoothly declining sound power with increasing frequency), but any system designed for high-fidelity music playback must use multiple subwoofers. Why? Those 10-15dB swings in the upper bass you mention (I've actually measured even worse swings!) can be reduced to 2dB swings with a properly set-up multisub system.

Orchestral music benefits from a proper multisub setup even more than most program material.

And if he-man SPL isn't the goal, each individual sub can be fairly small and easy to hide. Obviously, the more SPL one wants, the bigger the subs need to be.

 

[Xytech]

Dear All,

I have been doing some further research and a new contender has entered the fray: the Salk SongTowers. The reviews have been overwhelmingly positive, and I have been in touch with the owner, Jim, who has been happy to work out a shipping arrangement to Australia. Does anyone have any thoughts on these speakers they would like to share?

Best wishes

 

[Swerd]

Dear All,

I have been doing some further research and a new contender has entered the fray: the Salk SongTowers. The reviews have been overwhelmingly positive, and I have been in touch with the owner, Jim, who has been happy to work out a shipping arrangement to Australia. Does anyone have any thoughts on these speakers they would like to share?

Best wishes

I have happily owned a pair of SongTowers for nearly 4 years now. If you can get them shipped to Australia for a price that works for you, I highly recommend them. Jim Salk is an excellent person to do business with. He is knowledgeable and trustworthy.

SongTowers were designed by a highly experienced speaker designer who listens to and plays classical music on a regular basis.

Read my impressions, linked below.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think all three would still sound quite similar (because they're all voiced what I consider correctly - for smoothly declining sound power with increasing frequency), but any system designed for high-fidelity music playback must use multiple subwoofers. Why? Those 10-15dB swings in the upper bass you mention (I've actually measured even worse swings!) can be reduced to 2dB swings with a properly set-up multisub system.

Orchestral music benefits from a proper multisub setup even more than most program material.

And if he-man SPL isn't the goal, each individual sub can be fairly small and easy to hide. Obviously, the more SPL one wants, the bigger the subs need to be.

Yeah, I agree with you 100%.

I've switched the speakers around, and they sound the same to me.

Right now, I actually have the Salon2s in the middle and the Orions on the sides. Sounds the same to me.