Best setup for my new toys

[IansDad88(Don)]

Did you do a true dbt with those speakers to determine that? I agree with you about the blanket statement part. Bi amping using active crossovers can realize some great results. Using 2 channels from the same unit on speakers with passive crossovers is a tough sell for me tho. I've heard no difference doing it at all and I have some power to play with.

Exactly what drove me here...!

Every single review I read on this M-CR612 has a paragraph like this in it, and it's how I started this thread because I knew nothing about it. Intuitively I thought cutting my watts by half on an already 60Wx2 setup was silly... But like Pogue points out, there's so much out there you sometimes just ask and how to get a decent answer. Because let's be honest, you could throw numbers and graphs and charts at me all day long and I'd be no better off in the end. But I figured someone here knew and it had tried...

Sure enough I got plenty of easy to digest input.

 

[lovinthehd]

Sorry for leaving out the reference, this was part of yesterday's discussion, and relates to my Klipsch RP-160M's. And the M-CR612 we were talking about.

The unanimous position here was not in favor, (of Bi-amping) but I was confused coming in because I'd read at least a dozen if these.

There's a lot of audio information out there that's bullshit (particularly in subjective reviews)....like needing hundreds of watts of power to make your speakers sing or to get their full potential....even when listening at a modest volume where only a watt or two is likely needed (and even for peaks, not that much more).

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

I just looked at the manual for amp spec, the Marantz is only rated at 6 ohm at "60 + 60" at 1khz and THD+N of 10% and "50 + 50" at 1khz and THD+N of .7% (and that may be short hand in marketing speak for 1 channel driven at a time)....no 8 ohm rating at all but guessing it wouldn't likely be any better than 40wpc at 8 ohm and a reasonable THD across the full 20Hz-20kHz frequency range which is the normal spec we compare with (and such for the Onkyo is 8 ohm loads, both channels driven, from 20-20,000 Hz; rated 80 watts per channel minimum RMS power, with no more than 0.1 % total harmonic).

OMG thanks for writing this..!

I got lost I guess in all the fun yesterday. - **assuming I keep the Onkyo as is, OR move it to the Pre-Outs on my 6013 then I still need a decent, affordable 2 channel "something" to replace my initial plan.

I suppose in the point I'm at now, keeping the Onkyo in place with the RP-160M's, I'll be wanting to drive the rear surrounds on my HT...

Wide open to suggestions. Assuming it aligns somewhat closely with the SR-6013 with all 9 channels going already itself. Or not. I really don't know I guess.

See I'm learning. I'm asking FIRST..!

 

[lovinthehd]

OMG thanks for writing this..!

I got lost I guess in all the fun yesterday. - **assuming I keep the Onkyo as is, OR move it to the Pre-Outs on my 6013 then I still need a decent, affordable 2 channel "something" to replace my initial plan.

I suppose in the point I'm at now, keeping the Onkyo in place with the RP-160M's, I'll be wanting to drive the rear surrounds on my HT...

Wide open to suggestions. Assuming it aligns somewhat closely with the SR-6013 with all 9 channels going already itself. Or not. I really don't know I guess.

See I'm learning. I'm asking FIRST..!

What speaker setup do you have on the 6013? I don't remember seeing that. Here's a bench test with ACD ratings up to 7ch on a similarly rated 7011(you can extrapolate somewhat for 9), not that ACD ratings are all that meaningful, particularly for surround duties. https://www.soundandvision.com/content/marantz-sr7011-av-receiver-review-test-bench. A discussion about adding an external amp for a 6013 I noticed too https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/marantz-6013-5-1-4-external-amp-necessary.115030/

 

[lovinthehd]

If you do add a power amp you might add it for the front channels that use it the most and free up avr amp channels for other uses (assuming yours has some flexibility in its amp-assign settings for such). I'm a fan of Crown XLS power amps for the money....I have four 1500s (now 1502s).

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

There's a lot of audio information out there that's bullshit (particularly in subjective reviews)....like needing hundreds of watts of power to make your speakers sing or to get their full potential....even when listening at a modest volume where only a watt or two is likely needed (and even for peaks, not that much more).

Yeah, I know about watts and such from my car audio background..! I'll take 50-120 CLEAN watts any day and pretty much be all I need. (most cases)

Hell in the old days didn't they get monster clean sound from just teens of watts running tubes and whatnot.?

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

If you do add a power amp you might add it for the front channels that use it the most and free up avr amp channels for other uses (assuming yours has some flexibility in its amp-assign settings for such). I'm a fan of Crown XLS power amps for the money....I have four 1500s (now 1502s).

Amp won't do it... I could replace the fronts, via pte-out but the reason the 6013 is on my house is it's a year old and $600 off regular price at purchase. But it has limitations in options here

Will clarify in the other post.

 

[Pogre]

The 6013 is a great AVR. I have an earlier version, the 6011 and plan to keep it for a long time.

So... do you have both the Onkyo and a 6013 and want to set up 2 different systems or..? What exactly was the purpose of the Marantz you're looking at aside from a player? Apologize if you explained already. I don't remember and this thread is growing. Lots to dig back through, lol.

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

What speaker setup do you have on the 6013? I don't remember seeing that. Here's a bench test with ACD ratings up to 7ch on a similarly rated 7011(you can extrapolate somewhat for 9), not that ACD ratings are all that meaningful, particularly for surround duties. https://www.soundandvision.com/content/marantz-sr7011-av-receiver-review-test-bench. A discussion about adding an external amp for a 6013 I noticed too https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/marantz-6013-5-1-4-external-amp-necessary.115030/

OK, so right now I'm in a 9.2.1, and I'm considering either 9.2.2 or 11.2.1.

Again this is a few years old the SR-6013 and its limited on "actual Atmos, and no Virtual"

So when engaged on most things I have I'm in DTS Neural but without the behind the head rears. Everything else is mostly accurate, but I do lose out on the best overhead, and or that "oh sh1t that was right behind my ear sounds..."

Thanks for the article, I'll read it..!

This is NOT a mandatory upgrade or even imminent one, but it relates to most of this we've talked about because as I wrote earlier I had planned initially to move the Onkyo.

So the 6013 has its limit but I'm the kind of guy that if you tell me I can go from 9 to 11 and I already have perfectly sevicable satellites from either an older Harmon Kardon or an Infinity, I'm gonna definitely put it on my list.! LMAO

Please don't embarrass me by asking which Atmos speakers I have. But again, ALL 9 are Klipsch and all but the center were on sale..! Yes can do better but I'm not ashamed (outside of this chat group.). That stuff was all done quite a while ago.

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

The 6013 is a great AVR. I have an earlier version, the 6011 and plan to keep it for a long time.

So... do you have both the Onkyo and a 6013 and want to set up 2 different systems or..? What exactly was the purpose of the Marantz you're looking at aside from a player? Apologize if you explained already. I don't remember and this thread is growing. Lots to dig back through, lol.

No problem...
Yes, originally the Onkyo was going to power the 2 pre-outs on the 6013, and I'm glad you approve cause I love it too.

The whole Bi-amping and CR612, was intended for a whole new different area. Basement or extra bedroom. "Don's Listening Spot" KEEP OUT!

Was going to put the RP-160M with the new gear in the basenent/bedroom. And since both of these pieces support Bi-amping and I didn't know Jack about it.... That started the whole thread. Do I Bi-amp or not. And things QuickTime got around to all the ways I went bad. LOL..!

So the AVR and HT are in the Living Room currently setup in a fairly well (amature) functioning 9.2.1 with Klipsch all around. But since everything I bought was on sale except for the Center, I'm happy with it. Still needs tweaking, and no I didn't get those subs you only told me about yesterday... Hehe. But to my ears it's very nice, though just missing the true surround BACK. As in behind listening position. So I get decent backside from my SDL/SDR channels, nothing really pops behind me.

And TBH I've read the manual and considered everything up to and including 4 Fronts. Don't ask why... I just marked the page and wrote "this is interesting"

Ultimately though I believe I'd prefer the rear channels to any other option.

So this thing is maybe? running at 9x65-90w on average..? So that is what initially had me thinking the 2x70 Onkyo would essentially trigger connect, ug and play.

 

[lovinthehd]

OK, so right now I'm in a 9.2.1, and I'm considering either 9.2.2 or 11.2.1.

Again this is a few years old the SR-6013 and its limited on "actual Atmos, and no Virtual"

So when engaged on most things I have I'm in DTS Neural but without the behind the head rears. Everything else is mostly accurate, but I do lose out on the best overhead, and or that "oh sh1t that was right behind my ear sounds..."

Thanks for the article, I'll read it..!

This is NOT a mandatory upgrade or even imminent one, but it relates to most of this we've talked about because as I wrote earlier I had planned initially to move the Onkyo.

So the 6013 has its limit but I'm the kind of guy that if you tell me I can go from 9 to 11 and I already have perfectly sevicable satellites from either an older Harmon Kardon or an Infinity, I'm gonna definitely put it on my list.! LMAO

Please don't embarrass me by asking which Atmos speakers I have. But again, ALL 9 are Klipsch and all but the center were on sale..! Yes can do better but I'm not ashamed (outside of this chat group.). That stuff was all done quite a while ago.

FWIW the subs go in the middle (5.2.4 for example would be two subs). At least I assume you aren't talking about a single overhead speaker with the 11.2.1 setup....

The 6013 does have an upmixer in Dolby Surround....as well as DTS:X Virtual....or I'm misunderstanding.

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

FWIW the subs go in the middle (5.2.4 for example would be two subs). At least I assume you aren't talking about a single overhead speaker with the 11.2.1 setup....

The 6013 does have an upmixer in Dolby Surround....as well as DTS:X Virtual....or I'm misunderstanding.

Yeah, sorry... I meant no "Virtual Atmos" which as I understand was one of the main differences in the need for a 6014.

Hehe - but to my thinking, saving $600 and having "actual" Atmos speakers, I didn't need the "Virtual Atmos" setting. Made sense at the time anyway. Been trying not to announce it directly but it's "ceiling bouncers" on the current config. So no, not 1 set of ceiling. No actual ceiling at all.

And Yay.! Hooray..! the Subs are in the middle..! I actually did one thing right on my own..? Awesome.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah, sorry... I meant no "Virtual Atmos" which as I understand was one of the main differences in the need for a 6014.

Hehe - but to my thinking, saving $600 and having "actual" Atmos speakers, I didn't need the "Virtual Atmos" setting. Made sense at the time anyway. Been trying not to announce it directly but it's "ceiling bouncers" on the current config. So no, not 1 set of ceiling. No actual ceiling at all.

And Yay.! Hooray..! the Subs are in the middle..! I actually did one thing right on my own..? Awesome.

Dolby Surround upmixes to the Atmos speakers afaik in your 6013....

Bouncy speakers by most accounts I've read aren't as good as properly placed ceiling speakers....but I didn't want to dig into my ceilings (yet) so no Atmos for me as I don't have any bouncy speakers

 

[Pogre]

OK, so right now I'm in a 9.2.1

Just so I know I'm reading you right, when you say "9.2.1" are you saying 2 subwoofers and 1 surround channel? That's what HD meant when he said the sub(s) go in the middle. If you have 1 sub and 2 back channels it would be 9.1.2.

Like he also said, with that many speakers going it's not a horrible idea to get a separate 2 or 3 channel amp to power your main speakers or mains and center channel to take a little of the load off your SR6013, but that would be a "down the road" type of consideration, IMO.

It sounds like you have a capable HT setup and enough speakers (for now, lol) with the 6013 so the focus is on your "if you hear music don't come knockin'" room? And for that you so far have the Onkyo, Klipsch sub, RP160s and still need a player? For now, the Onkyo should serve pretty well as the hub and powering your speakers in stereo, unless it's lacking any features you need. I think for the sake of not getting confused we should deal with your 2 setups separately, if I'm understanding you correctly (I have comprehension issues sometimes so please correct anything I said that's incorrect). I think I'm getting a little lost between the 2 setups being discussed.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

 

[Pogre]

There we go! I mixed 'em up a little too... I'm only 5.2, tho I just realized I have more speakers now. I could rig up something quick n dirty pretty without a ton of effort and check out a Blu Ray with a good mix for the additional channels. HMMM...

This thread may end up being the inspiration for me to at least check it out. I have never had more than 5.2.

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

Just so I know I'm reading you right, when you say "9.2.1" are you saying 2 subwoofers and 1 surround channel? That's what HD meant when he said the sub(s) go in the middle. If you have 1 sub and 2 back channels it would be 9.1.2.

Like he also said, with that many speakers going it's not a horrible idea to get a separate 2 or 3 channel amp to power your main speakers or mains and center channel to take a little of the load off your SR6013, but that would be a "down the road" type of consideration, IMO.

It sounds like you have a capable HT setup and enough speakers (for now, lol) with the 6013 so the focus is on your "if you hear music don't come knockin'" room? And for that you so far have the Onkyo, Klipsch sub, RP160s and still need a player? For now, the Onkyo should serve pretty well as the hub and powering your speakers in stereo, unless it's lacking any features you need. I think for the sake of not getting confused we should deal with your 2 setups separately, if I'm understanding you correctly (I have comprehension issues sometimes so please correct anything I said that's incorrect). I think I'm getting a little lost between the 2 setups being discussed.

Yes my friend. AVR is 9.2.1. = 9 surround, 2 subs in middle and 1 "Height" channel assigned on the amp - connected to a pair of Klipsch R 625FA.
This setup is essentially fine, but the AVR is limited in options between 5, 7, 9, and 11 setups. Because it has 2 "Height" assignable channels but 1 is really a switching Dolby channel. Basically the 2nd Height channel won't setup to be (SBL/SBR). It's the software. But I do have pre-outs for all channels. The confusions comes in because one plan I had for the 70W Onkyo Stereo was to use these pre-outs to power those back surrounds.

Now that you've talked me out of doing that, I am left with an opening for an amp to do that chore on the AVR. And honestly with so many pre-outs, I have no problem using 4 channels there and taking the fronts off AND powering the SBL/SBR's.

So as things stand now the "Leave Don alone room" Will keep the RP-160M Klipsch and the Onkyo and I'll figure out the sub.

Basically everything is settled but for the "next step" on the HT. And that's no emergency but it is something I'll do... Because I can.

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

Dolby Surround upmixes to the Atmos speakers afaik in your 6013....

Bouncy speakers by most accounts I've read aren't as good as properly placed ceiling speakers....but I didn't want to dig into my ceilings (yet) so no Atmos for me as I don't have any bouncy speakers

Yes sir... You're correct on both accounts.

Both Dolby Surround, And DTS Neural upmix to the Atmos. But the Dolby on this amp stops at 7 channel setups. So I use the DTS Neural as it utilizes 9 and 11 channel processing.

And I agree the true in celing Atmos are better but I'm not cutting my celing either. So I got and use the Klipsch R625FA's on my front position firing up.

And just FYI I don't have a single Bluray yet that has an Atmos track. And near as I can tell none of my streaming has it yet either. So I run the 7.1 Master DTS on physical bluray discs and select the DTS Neural on everything because it's the only 6013 option for 9+ channels. And as much as I love it, I have used the 5.2 settings and found that in that config the AVR switches to turn on the SBL/SBR channels and it really is an excellent feature.

That is exactly why I'll get another 2 or 4 channel amp to use the pre-outs. I can change the Fronts, OR the SBL/SBR with a 2 channel.

Or I can do the Fronts AND power the extra 2 SBL/SBR channels with a 4 channel amp.

I just need suggestions for these 2 options. Since I got in trouble doing it myself, this time I'm askingfor ideas before I even start shopping or researching.

BTW in this config it's from watching TV. If I turn the Heights on in the front height position the AVR switches constantly between programs and commercials. (some being PCM and others Dolby on my old Hopper) And this still plays the "bouncy's so it's just easier. I change it when watching a movie.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yes my friend. AVR is 9.2.1. = 9 surround, 2 subs in middle and 1 "Height" channel assigned on the amp - connected to a pair of Klipsch R 625FA.
This setup is essentially fine, but the AVR is limited in options between 5, 7, 9, and 11 setups. Because it has 2 "Height" assignable channels but 1 is really a switching Dolby channel. Basically the 2nd Height channel won't setup to be (SBL/SBR). It's the software. But I do have pre-outs for all channels. The confusions comes in because one plan I had for the 70W Onkyo Stereo was to use these pre-outs to power those back surrounds.

Now that you've talked me out of doing that, I am left with an opening for an amp to do that chore on the AVR. And honestly with so many pre-outs, I have no problem using 4 channels there and taking the fronts off AND powering the SBL/SBR's.

So as things stand now the "Leave Don alone room" Will keep the RP-160M Klipsch and the Onkyo and I'll figure out the sub.

Basically everything is settled but for the "next step" on the HT. And that's no emergency but it is something I'll do... Because I can.

Ok. Gotta ask. What is a “Dolby switching channel”? And do I read right that you have two speakers connected to a single channel? In any case, I’m confused by what your saying. I have a 6012 with a Yamaha amp on my mains for 7.3.4. Your 6013 can do 7.1.2 or 5.1.4 without external amplification.
Sorry if I’m dense this morning. Just don’t get what you’re saying here...