Behringer A500 Amplifier: Objective Test Results

[fmw]

Hi this is my first post here. After taking a few hours to read this and other threads on the subject, from here and other sites, I purchased me a EP2500 form parts express. Orginally to run two infinity 12 inch subs. But first I wanted to hear it on my mains. I used a Onkyo TS-DS797 as a pre and hooked them up to my B&W CM4s. Before I took a listen I went to a local highend dealer to listen to what they had first. My luck was that they had a Classe amp and pre running the exact speakers I had and I could hear a substantial improvement but not a drastic one. ( Granted some of this had to do with room acoustics and treatments). I went home and listed to my reciever and I was correct. the audio shop sounded better. I hooked up the Behringer and was pretty amazed. It was also a improvement over the reciever alone. I wouldnt say it sounded as good as the Classe from the shop, but it would be interesting to do a blind test. Iim thinking better treatments in my room will make this setup sing. It gave my rather small CM4s anice boost on the lowend. The kick drum and bass guitar stood out more. It had more I guess youd say slam. it also open up the soudstage more. Maybe a bit more detail. I could also seem to listen a larger volumes without listeners fatigue. I guess the best way to put it is that the speakers seemed to be larger than they are and sounded before. Im going to order another now for my subs and play with my room treatments for a while. Thanks I really enjoyed reading the thread and it help me out alot.
Thanks Monroe

PS As comparison cds I used Clapton Unplugged. Dire Straits "Love Over Gold",STP "Core", Van Morrison and The Black Crows

Unfortunately, your listening test has no validity. You can't listen to something one place and compare it to something heard elsewhere - particularly since room acoustics make more sonic difference than the equipment placed in the room. Do some research. See what you can find on blind testing, bias controlled testing, perceptual hearing, placebo effect and things of that nature. It's good that you're working at it. You just haven't gotten anywhere near where you need to be in the listening tests. Take care.

 

[MonroeBobo]

Yeh I realize that you cant do a real comparison with it not being a blind under the exact same condtions. It would br good to do areal blind test similar to this one. matrixhifi.com. I origanal purchaesed it to power subs. I had it powering my B&Ws for 3 hours last night and it felt like an aii conditioning vent. For $350 you cant beat it. I do know that before I purchase a high end and usually high dollar amp, such as Krell, Classe, and Rotel, I will do a blind test of my own. I'm not sure if theres a $1500 to $4000 difference in them. From my admitted limited experience auditioning amps under exact conditions, I would guess theres a few hundred dollar difference if any. LOL of course I have been wrong many times. I think I'll order a BFD and try some of the REW test. I guess thats another subject all together.
Just my $.02
Thanks Monroe

 

[mtrycrafts]

... but it would be interesting to do a blind test.

Yes, that is the only way to know for sure. Anything less, well, just unreliable.

 

[PENG]

The kick drum and bass guitar stood out more. It had more I guess youd say slam. it also open up the soudstage more. Maybe a bit more detail. I could also seem to listen a larger volumes without listeners fatigue. I guess the best way to put it is that the speakers seemed to be larger than they are and sounded before.

I find these kind of descriptions by professional reviewers interesting. First of all, what exactly are the definitions of "open up the soundstage"? Surely I could guess what they meant but it just get too abstract for me to consider any of those as facts. Secondly, do they compare the sound to "live" like sound, i.e. hi fidelity sound, or to the preferred sound by the individual reviewers?

 

[fmw]

If you think a multi thousand dollar Krell amplifier will sound any different than a $400 pro audio amp in a bias controlled listening test, then you've been spending too much time reading TAS and Stereophile. I say that with confidence because I have included a Krell amp in my own bias controlled testing.

The problem is the high end industry in general. The high end folks are well meaning, to be sure, but they are in left field when it comes to sonics. Like all the rest of us, they suffer from perceptual hearing but unlike some of the rest of us, they nurture it and savor it. These magazines cater to that crowd. Obviously amplifiers don't have a sound stage, they amplify one. They don't have openness or closeness, they amplify them. They just increase the amplitude of waveforms without distorting them audibly. They add nothing to the sonics and they shouldn't.

Only the high end audiophile community would want something different than accuracy. Luckily for them, they get the accuracy but perceptual hearing convinces them that they hear all kinds of things that occur because of the way their brain interprets sound and not because of anything in the equipment itself. Yes, Krell amplifiers are well designed and well made and perform accurately as they should. Same with this amp.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/P2500S/

 

[MonroeBobo]

I agree that I am not that experienced in listening test and that I have fooled myself before in the past and have seen others fool themselves also. Example is My brother had a rather cheap pair of JBLs that he loved for years. Then he ran across a pair of I belive Klipsch KG 4.5s Defintly Klipsch though. He said he was going to sell the klipsch because he couldnt tell the difference. I was going to buy them. I went over to his house and he had the JBL on. I wanted to hear the Klipschs first. The difference was huge. Though I really didnt like either sound. We hooked the left to JBL and right to Klipsch and Adjusted the gains to appox the same volume. His first words were do you want to buy a pair of JBLs. Another was i got a little drink at a party and came home and listened at more volume than normal and fried a amp going to one of my 12" subs. LOL Took me a week to realize it. But there are times when the difference is large enough that nearly anyone who listens and cares about the sound quality can immediatly differeinciate between the two. All I was really saying, is that under those conditions the differences were that huge to me. But of course, I could have fooled myself to justify the purchase I just made. All of this makes me want to do some blind tests. I need to find others in my community that have the same passion for music. I must admit I hope thats theres not a ton of difference because I cant afford a Krell anyhow. Maybe a Rotel but not a Krell.
Thanks Monroe

 

[fmw]

Don't mistake me, Monroe. I'm not suggesting everything in audio sounds the same and certainly not speakers. The electronic components for the most part sound the same except in fairly extreme circumstances as long as they are being used properly. The speakers and to an even greater extent room acoustics play the major part in the sound of an audio system. I would have expected a sonic difference between the speakers you talked about.

 

[poutanen]

First post: I realize this is an old thread but I figured my experience with these amps would be relevant...

I bought my first A500 about 3-4 years ago. At first I was using it to drive a pair of Yamaha S115V's, the sound was decent of course.

I bought my second A500 about 2 years later to drive a pair of Yamaha S118III's (18" subs), and it did a not bad job of running the 4 ohm load while bridged. I realize that Behringer doesn't suggest this in the manual, but I've been doing it for about a year and a half and it's been fine the whole time. Actually doesn't even get warm at my listening levels.

I brought a dB meter home from work a few months back to give my system a little workout. I picked a few different tracks, as I don't have a signal generator or test CD or anything like that, and the best I could muster out of my full setup was about 106-107 dB in the centre of the room.

Probably should mention the room is about 15' x 20', my speakers were on the short side, approximately 12' apart, and I was in a position 12' from both speakers.

Anyway, it sounds fine at 106 dB, don't get me wrong, but I was curious, so I rewired the amps and tried it again. I unplugged the 18s, and bridged each A500 into each S115V, and ran my system again without the centre or rear speakers on (yamaha's "pure direct" mode which just sends the L-R signals through to the pre-outs with as little change to the signal as possible).

Yes, I should have expected running closer to what these speakers want would make them sound better, but I wasn't expecting to get 116 dB in the same spot of the room. And I realize this is subjective, but the thing sounded BETTER with just the two mains, than it did with the mains, subs, centre, and surrounds all running.

I have never had so much as a hiccup from either amp, and I'min the process of moving, but I'll run them each bridged into an S115V each from now on, and I'm hunting for an amp to run the S118's...

Kinda OT, but can anyone recommend an amp to run around 700-1000 x 2 into 8 ohms?

Thanks, and sorry for the long winded first post....

Cheers,

Aaron

 

[wire]

First post: I realize this is an old thread but I figured my experience with these amps would be relevant...

I bought my first A500 about 3-4 years ago. At first I was using it to drive a pair of Yamaha S115V's, the sound was decent of course.

I bought my second A500 about 2 years later to drive a pair of Yamaha S118III's (18" subs), and it did a not bad job of running the 4 ohm load while bridged. I realize that Behringer doesn't suggest this in the manual, but I've been doing it for about a year and a half and it's been fine the whole time. Actually doesn't even get warm at my listening levels.

I brought a dB meter home from work a few months back to give my system a little workout. I picked a few different tracks, as I don't have a signal generator or test CD or anything like that, and the best I could muster out of my full setup was about 106-107 dB in the centre of the room.

Probably should mention the room is about 15' x 20', my speakers were on the short side, approximately 12' apart, and I was in a position 12' from both speakers.

Anyway, it sounds fine at 106 dB, don't get me wrong, but I was curious, so I rewired the amps and tried it again. I unplugged the 18s, and bridged each A500 into each S115V, and ran my system again without the centre or rear speakers on (yamaha's "pure direct" mode which just sends the L-R signals through to the pre-outs with as little change to the signal as possible).

Yes, I should have expected running closer to what these speakers want would make them sound better, but I wasn't expecting to get 116 dB in the same spot of the room. And I realize this is subjective, but the thing sounded BETTER with just the two mains, than it did with the mains, subs, centre, and surrounds all running.

I have never had so much as a hiccup from either amp, and I'min the process of moving, but I'll run them each bridged into an S115V each from now on, and I'm hunting for an amp to run the S118's...

Kinda OT, but can anyone recommend an amp to run around 700-1000 x 2 into 8 ohms?

Thanks, and sorry for the long winded first post....

Cheers,

Aaron

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1224000744&/Sunfire-Signature-600-2-
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1223412603&/Sunfire-Signature-600---2-600-
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1224691308&/Bryston-7b-SST-single-amp
These mightbe abit pricey , but those are big amps .

 

[wire]

I agree that I am not that experienced in listening test and that I have fooled myself before in the past and have seen others fool themselves also. Example is My brother had a rather cheap pair of JBLs that he loved for years. Then he ran across a pair of I belive Klipsch KG 4.5s Defintly Klipsch though. He said he was going to sell the klipsch because he couldnt tell the difference. I was going to buy them. I went over to his house and he had the JBL on. I wanted to hear the Klipschs first. The difference was huge. Though I really didnt like either sound. We hooked the left to JBL and right to Klipsch and Adjusted the gains to appox the same volume. His first words were do you want to buy a pair of JBLs. Another was i got a little drink at a party and came home and listened at more volume than normal and fried a amp going to one of my 12" subs. LOL Took me a week to realize it. But there are times when the difference is large enough that nearly anyone who listens and cares about the sound quality can immediatly differeinciate between the two. All I was really saying, is that under those conditions the differences were that huge to me. But of course, I could have fooled myself to justify the purchase I just made. All of this makes me want to do some blind tests. I need to find others in my community that have the same passion for music. I must admit I hope thats theres not a ton of difference because I cant afford a Krell anyhow. Maybe a Rotel but not a Krell.
Thanks Monroe

Just enjoy your system if you like it and improve later ( try used if you can , it can be much cheaper ) .

 

[WmAx]

Kinda OT, but can anyone recommend an amp to run around 700-1000 x 2 into 8 ohms?

Yamaha P7000S will output 700 x 2 into 8 Ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, both channels driven. It increases to 950 x 2 into 4 Ohms. It has a fan, but the fan will not come on in home use. The fan on the Yamaha units only comes on when the heatsink temperature exceeds 50C(122F).

Please note: you will need a dedicated 20A circuit for this amplifier if you intend for it to meet rated power specifications.

-Chris

 

[Seth=L]

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1224000744&/Sunfire-Signature-600-2-
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1223412603&/Sunfire-Signature-600---2-600-
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1224691308&/Bryston-7b-SST-single-amp
These mightbe abit pricey , but those are big amps .

Or he could just get one of those Yamaha or Behringer pro amps of a higher rating.

 

[Seth=L]

Yamaha P7000S will output 700 x 2 into 8 Ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, both channels driven. It increases to 950 x 2 into 4 Ohms. It has a fan, but the fan will not come on in home use. The fan on the Yamaha units only comes on when the heatsink temperature exceeds 50C(122F).

Please note: you will need a dedicated 20A circuit for this amplifier if you intend for it to meet rated power specifications.

-Chris

There are no home audio amps that I know of for under $2000 that need a 20A fuse to reach full output. This is a true testiment to how much power those higher end Yamaha pro amplifiers can deliver. About the only way to get more power at this point is to refine a higher efficiency topology to output clean power.

 

[wire]

Or he could just get one of those Yamaha or Behringer pro amps of a higher rating.

Relax Seth
Its just a suggestion .
There is nothing wrong with Sunfire or Bryston amps .

 

[Seth=L]

Relax Seth
Its just a suggestion .
There is nothing wrong with Sunfire or Bryston amps .

Sunfire puts huge custom caps in their amplifiers that will fail over time and have to be replaced by Sunfire. I'd say that's a problem, especially if Sunfire goes the way of Carver and Phase Linear. I don't know much about Bryston, but they do have a good reputation and have been known to outsource to other reputable companies such as Lexicon.

Most pro-amplifiers use mass produced smaller value capacitors in clusters. While it doesn't seem as impressive it's more effective and reliable. In the even the caps fail they can be replaced through a secondary vendor for very reasonable prices.

Top all that off with the pro amps being less expensive (and perform better in most cases), and the only debate you are left with are appearances.

 

[WmAx]

There are no home audio amps that I know of for under $2000 that need a 20A fuse to reach full output. This is a true testiment to how much power those higher end Yamaha pro amplifiers can deliver. About the only way to get more power at this point is to refine a higher efficiency topology to output clean power.

These amps use a hybrid class H topology, but unique to Yamaha. Instead of 2 fixed supply rail voltages to switch between like with Class H, the Yamaha has a dynamic rail voltage; it is infinitely variable according to the needs of the program material. The Yamaha P**00S amplifiers use conventional Class AB output stage, and due to the special power supply system, are supposed to be able to match the efficiency of Class D.

Anyways, I now use these amps, three of them, for my main stereo system. They perform as transparently as anyone could desire.

-Chris

 

[mike c]

These amps use a hybrid class H topology, but unique to Yamaha. Instead of 2 fixed supply rail voltages to switch between like with Class H, the Yamaha has a dynamic rail voltage; it is infinitely variable according to the needs of the program material. The Yamaha P**00S amplifiers use conventional Class AB output stage, and due to the special power supply system, are supposed to be able to match the efficiency of Class D.

Anyways, I now use these amps, three of them, for my main stereo system. They perform as transparently as anyone could desire.

-Chris

from the man who has single-handedly sold a million A500's ...
it's too bad these yammy's are much too expensive over here.
can you link/pm your yammy sources or prices?

 

[poutanen]

Thanks for the OT input, the P7000 is on my short list, along with the older PC6501N or PC4801N, or the T4n. 90% of my system is Yamaha so I certainly wouldn't mind my sub amp being Yamaha.

I've been debating about what to do for power for the amps (considering I'm running 2 A500's, a Denon POA-5200, my RXV1500 receiver, and a sub amp). I'm buying a house at the moment, and I'm looking specifically for a place with an unfinished basement to make it easier to pre-wire the whole setup.

I was thinking about running a plug just for the power amps, with 12/3 wire going to the plug, and each outlet connected to a separate 20 amp breaker. The sub amp would run off it's own circuit, and the A500's and POA-5200 would share a 20 amp circuit. The receiver and the rest of my equipment can run fine off a 15 amp circuit. Maybe this is a little overkill, I'm not sure...

 

[wire]

Sunfire puts huge custom caps in their amplifiers that will fail over time and have to be replaced by Sunfire. I'd say that's a problem, especially if Sunfire goes the way of Carver and Phase Linear. I don't know much about Bryston, but they do have a good reputation and have been known to outsource to other reputable companies such as Lexicon.

Most pro-amplifiers use mass produced smaller value capacitors in clusters. While it doesn't seem as impressive it's more effective and reliable. In the even the caps fail they can be replaced through a secondary vendor for very reasonable prices.

Top all that off with the pro amps being less expensive (and perform better in most cases), and the only debate you are left with are appearances.

Don't you worry to much about the Sunfires , they will hold there own to any other amp out there . I have a TFM 35 , which is almost as old as you . and still going strong .
When it comes to Bryston , you show me any other company out there giving a 20 year warrenty , that just shows how they stand behind there product .
Brystons will last most of anyones remaining lives .
So if superficials are good 4 you , good 4 u .

 

[Seth=L]

Don't you worry to much about the Sunfires , they will hold there own to any other amp out there . I have a TFM 35 , which is almost as old as you . and still going strong .
When it comes to Bryston , you show me any other company out there giving a 20 year warrenty , that just shows how they stand behind there product .
Brystons will last most of anyones remaining lives .
So if superficials are good 4 you , good 4 u .

I am familiar with the Carver TFM 35, but there's a difference between the Sunfire and Carver amplifiers. Just because the same guy designed them doesn't mean they work the same or use the same parts. Unfortunately Bob has a bad habit of putting huge custom caps into all his amplifiers. The funky huge caps used in these 5 and 7 channel Cinema Grand amplifiers are ridiculous. Two massive capacitors and all that leg work, trust me they will wear quick.

Again, I don't know much about Bryston. I can't comment on them.

I like how made a cute assumption about my age.

Summary:
Very nice sounding amp , Sound stage is good , the upper end is crystal clear . I am making my comparisons to a Bryston 4b , which i have used for about 20 years or so now . The brystons mids and depth are better than the Carver TFM-35 , but like i said the upper end is better with the Carver and has a softer sound ( than the bryston ) .
All in all you cant miss at these prices , this is great sounding amp with lots of clean Power .

Strengths:
Crystal clear high end , lots of clean power .
I use a CT-7 for a pre and Nuance Star1's with the TFM -35 for my Bedroom setup .

Weaknesses:
Cross my fingers , ill have no problems with the Amp .

Similar Products Used:
Bryston , Nad .
These amps sound much better then NAD , but not quite a Bryston .