Behringer A500 Amplifier: Objective Test Results

[beppe61]

.....Beppe, I want you to try something....try bridging the A500 and see what you get with it bridged pushing "one" speaker........let us know how it sounds......

I will follow your advice and I will try and report.
If it works I will look for another A500 then, instead of trying to mod it.
Even if I stronly think that better filter caps in the power supply could be very beneficial.
I tried this on an old amp I have and got a stronger bass e a more dynamic sound.
Only problem is the little free space inside the A500.
It is quite full indeed.
Thank you again for the hint.
Kind regards,

beppe

 

[mulester7]

I will follow your advice and I will try and report.

.....well, I guess it's going to be a little audio heracy straight from Italy....Beppe, I didn't suggest you use the A500 strapped from here on and get another one and do the same with it, but that would be your call....I just wanted to see if you were more pleased with the A500 bridged....I fully expect the thing to heat up with it strapped on 4 ohm speakers which will vary to 2 ohms some.....

.....Krabs, it's about noon, I've been up since the crack of 10, and I'm starting on my fourth gallon of moonshine for the day....just thought you'd like to know....burp.......

 

[beppe61]

.....well, I guess it's going to be a little audio heracy straight from Italy....
Beppe, I didn't suggest you use the A500 strapped from here on and get another one and do the same with it, but that would be your call....
I just wanted to see if you were more pleased with the A500 bridged....
.......

I have understood your advice clearly Sir.
The amp in bridged mode should drive a speaker with bigger authority.
Thank you and kind regards,

beppe

 

[beppe61]

I have asked to Behringer a Service Manual of the A500 and they refused to sell it to me.
When I purchased my other Samson Servo 260 the amp came with a complete schematic.
I do not understand why at Behringer they are so mysterious about their products.

 

[beppe61]

Please excuse me if I put again the question.
But I cannot help noticing that some manufactures give the Service Manual (i.e. full schematic) along with their products or downloadable from their web sites FOR FREE.
I cannot ask this of course.
But I wanted to buy it.
I think I am entitled to.
Or am I wrong ?
I start to think they have something to hide.
Very suspicious behaviour, isn't it ?
Thank you very much indeed.
Regards,

BG

P.S. all this ramblings because talking with an audio expert we all think that the unit has an higher potential not fully expressed (filter caps, signal coupling, volume pots, speakers outputs, wirings should be all revisited).

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Please excuse me if I put again the question.
But I cannot help noticing that some manufactures give the Service Manual (i.e. full schematic) along with their products or downloadable from their web sites FOR FREE.
I cannot ask this of course.
But I wanted to buy it.
I think I am entitled to.
Or am I wrong ?
I start to think they have something to hide.
Very suspicious behaviour, isn't it ?
Thank you very much indeed.
Regards,

BG

P.S. all this ramblings because talking with an audio expert we all think that the unit has an higher potential not fully expressed (filter caps, signal coupling, volume pots, speakers outputs, wirings should be all revisited).

A lot of manufactures only allow the service manuals to be purchased by authorized techs/service centers. That is very normal.

All the other stuff you mentioned is just a bunch of audiofoolery. Don't waste your time because you are not going to change the sound of the amp by doing any of that stuff. Be happy that you saved money getting one. If you want to spend more money then buy something else. It's your money.

 

[WmAx]

I will follow your advice and I will try and report.
If it works I will look for another A500 then, instead of trying to mod it.
Even if I stronly think that better filter caps in the power supply could be very beneficial.
I tried this on an old amp I have and got a stronger bass e a more dynamic sound.
Only problem is the little free space inside the A500.
It is quite full indeed.
Thank you again for the hint.
Kind regards,

beppe

Waste of time[the only differences to be expected on a properly designed amplifier will be those caused by a bad/defect part being replaced or by messing something up internally when you modify, unless you count imagined differences as 'real']. But, it's your time...

-Chris

 

[beppe61]

I would like to point out that the idea of increasing capacitance in the power supply is not mine. I found it here:
http://www.odysseyaudio.com/options.html
Stratos Stereo: Reference 60,000 uF expansion to 120,000 uF total capacitance $125.00
Nevertheless I agree completely on the point that instead of modding an A500 with a doubtful outcome would be better to buy a more powerful unit, like the EP1500 from the same brand.

Kind regards,

beppe

 

[maytagman]

I have a lot of experience with Behringer products from all parts of the market. I had originally built my first home studio (circa age 15 mind you, give me a break) from mostly behringer kit. Over my lifetime I've owned 5 behringer mixers, two amps, powered monitors, microphones, effects racks, etc etc. Of course the sound I got out of my Behringer home studio was far better than the other kids my age who were recording their music using the internal mic's on their casio tape players, so I was happy. Behringer pieces are offered at a low price point because of bulk purchasing on components from chinese manufacturers, and the use of affordable labor in eastern countries. I have torn apart everything I've owned to inspect the internals, and I have to agree with Beppe in the concern for component quality with regards to power supplies, pots, and the like.

Like Beppe, I do not expect my amps to color my sound. In my experience it is best to buy a flat, transparent amp, and create your sound using the components in line before the signal is amplified. That way if in the future you want to experience new sound, you have a flat neutral amp, and it is simply a matter of changing your inline components such as preamping and disc readers, etc.

With all of my Behringer parts, the only one I still use today are rack-mounted 4 channel limiter/gates, simply because I can't find another manufacturer of such a device. Behringer components always seemed to add large amounts of noise to the signal, increasing with the amount of systems you have in-line. I'm not talking audiophile levels of .00001db per piece, but audibly large amounts of white-noise. This is largely due to the lower quality construction and component use. In behringer mixers for example, it is par for the course to lose anywhere from 1-3 channels completely in the life of the board, and the resistors responsible for muting are of a low quality that they let noticable amounts of sound through to the mains, even when a channel is muted. Things like gauge of wire, solder joints and the like suffer from rushed and careless manufacturing. When I buy an amp, I like for it to be silent (little to no white noise), colorless, and flat. Your behringers may provide close to that, but you must wonder how long will things like the volume pots last before they begin to pop and fizz when adjusted?

That said you could replace things like caps in the power supply and pots throughout, and have very high quality results, because the basic designs are sound. But after you spend the money on components and time soldering, you wouldve been better off starting at a higher quality. When I pop open my carvin amps, everything is over-constructed. Huge wiring, redundant levels of power, overall nice build quality. I know my Carvins will last 10-20 years, my Behringers I wouldn't really trust even for a backup system now.

Sorry for being long-winded, I hope maybe I have provided some insight or thinking material.

Regards,
Maytag

 

[maytagman]

As brief sidenote to my last post. It is noteworthy that the Behringer designs are sound because most of their hardware are exact copies of popular designs from other manufacturers. Their mixers are carbon copies down to wiring and PCB design of famous models by Mackie. I would imagine the reason they are reluctant to give out service manuals is that they want to minimize the degree to which people notice this fact. Also can be because they wish to make money by repairing components out of warantee, which fail often. Another possibility is they are pressured or compensated by higher-end manufacturers to withold them so people cannot replace bad components with good ones and have higher-priced models for a fraction of cost.

Their strategy is to take a working design, substitute expensive or proprietary components, and re-build it for cheap. It is a good strategy and on some components such as direct boxes and adaptors there is little difference. Their hardware is good for American Wal-Mart generation I call it. People who don't mind throwing away or buying again components in 5 years as long as there is not so much trauma for the pocketbook when making the purchase. This works for some, but not for those who want long life from their gear. And this is reflected in warantees.

I use analogy to describe this, an analogy of the super-market. You can buy a box of brand-name cereal and pay four dollars, or buy a store brand copy for two. You're getting the same cereal, but the hard-core cereal enthusiasts can tell the difference, and will scoff at you.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

There is nothing in the A500's that are less quality than a majority of amps on the market and the Coil they are using are better than most. I can't speak about their other stuff, but these amps are as good as most things out there and better than a lot. They have better protection than most so called high end stuff too. Also, their signal processors and PEQ's like the DEQ 24/96 are very good stuff.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

I use analogy to describe this, an analogy of the super-market. You can buy a box of brand-name cereal and pay four dollars, or buy a store brand copy for two. You're getting the same cereal, but the hard-core cereal enthusiasts can tell the difference, and will scoff at you.

Who's up for a DBT of Fruit Loops and Frutti O's...

SBF1

 

[highfihoney]

Who's up for a DBT of Fruit Loops and Frutti O's...

SBF1

Haha,i couldnt get any of my kids to eat a fruti o to save my life,we also tried to fake em out by pouring the cheap stuff into a real box,nope,not buyin that one either.

we gave up tryin & just buy em the real deal now.

 

[WmAx]

I have a lot of experience with Behringer products from all parts of the market. I had originally built my first home studio (circa age 15 mind you, give me a break) from mostly behringer kit. Over my lifetime I've owned 5 behringer mixers, two amps, powered monitors, microphones, effects racks, etc etc. Of course the sound I got out of my Behringer home studio was far better than the other kids my age who were recording their music using the internal mic's on their casio tape players, so I was happy. Behringer pieces are offered at a low price point because of bulk purchasing on components from chinese manufacturers, and the use of affordable labor in eastern countries. I have torn apart everything I've owned to inspect the internals, and I have to agree with Beppe in the concern for component quality with regards to power supplies, pots, and the like.

Like Beppe, I do not expect my amps to color my sound. In my experience it is best to buy a flat, transparent amp, and create your sound using the components in line before the signal is amplified. That way if in the future you want to experience new sound, you have a flat neutral amp, and it is simply a matter of changing your inline components such as preamping and disc readers, etc.

With all of my Behringer parts, the only one I still use today are rack-mounted 4 channel limiter/gates, simply because I can't find another manufacturer of such a device. Behringer components always seemed to add large amounts of noise to the signal, increasing with the amount of systems you have in-line. I'm not talking audiophile levels of .00001db per piece, but audibly large amounts of white-noise. This is largely due to the lower quality construction and component use. In behringer mixers for example, it is par for the course to lose anywhere from 1-3 channels completely in the life of the board, and the resistors responsible for muting are of a low quality that they let noticable amounts of sound through to the mains, even when a channel is muted. Things like gauge of wire, solder joints and the like suffer from rushed and careless manufacturing. When I buy an amp, I like for it to be silent (little to no white noise), colorless, and flat. Your behringers may provide close to that, but you must wonder how long will things like the volume pots last before they begin to pop and fizz when adjusted?

That said you could replace things like caps in the power supply and pots throughout, and have very high quality results, because the basic designs are sound. But after you spend the money on components and time soldering, you wouldve been better off starting at a higher quality. When I pop open my carvin amps, everything is over-constructed. Huge wiring, redundant levels of power, overall nice build quality. I know my Carvins will last 10-20 years, my Behringers I wouldn't really trust even for a backup system now.

Sorry for being long-winded, I hope maybe I have provided some insight or thinking material.

Regards,
Maytag

I have used several electronic hardware Behringer devices from the current generation(last 3-4 year products) and none created noise levels any where near audible levels[when properly used], nor did they have other substantial issue(s). If I had experienced any substantial issue(s), I would not use the product(s). Some examples of products I have sampled being: DCX2496 loudspeaker management system, CX3400 crossover, and UB1202 mixer. I am currently considering the B-5 microphone. While not an electronic hardware product, I have measured this new generation product, and it performs spectacularly(very nuetral/linear recording microphone), but it does have a slight roll off past 15khz that I must question. I need to measure multiple samples of this product to establish general tolerances before I can make a decision. So far as quality, the electronic hardware examples I have used had no substantial compromises internally, using technically high quality op-amps for line level circuits, high quality pots and high quality DSP processing chips(DCX2496). It may be true that much of the older generation stuff was not very good. But that seems to be a trend not present in the random examples of current generation electronic hardware products I have tried so far from Behringer. I have not sampled the older generation products, though they do still seem to manufacture some of the older generation designs.

As far as accusing Behringer of stealing designs, I am aware of one case of a Mackie mixer that was supposed to exist from several years back, but I never actually reviewed the supposed evidence. Where is compelling evidence that demonstrates that they are currently copying internal designs?

-Chris

 

[highfihoney]

First off i mean no offense to anybody on either side of the quality issue with behringer gear but damm,this has got just plain silly with people bickering over gear that costs less than $200 brand new especially when most any reputable guitar store that sells behringer gear will give the buyer a 30 day money back gaurantee.

All i can offer to those who are thinking about buying this amp is to go out & buy one,try it in your own system & if you dont like it then take it back & get your money back.

 

[majorloser]

Thank You!

First off i mean no offense to anybody on either side of the quality issue with behringer gear but damm,this has got just plain silly with people bickering over gear that costs less than $200 brand new especially when most any reputable guitar store that sells behringer gear will give the buyer a 30 day money back gaurantee.

All i can offer to those who are thinking about buying this amp is to go out & buy one,try it in your own system & if you dont like it then take it back & get your money back.

Finally a voice of sanity!

The amps only cost $179 and that includes shipping.

I know that I got more than my money's worth. My system sounds better now than it used to and that's all that matters, isn't it? If you want "better quality" equipment, than go out and spend more money.

Putting new components in one of these amps is like................

.......putting DUBS on a Hyundai.

 

[dentman67]

HiFi makes a great point .

The amp has received some very good reviews , tests very well on the bench, and has fooled many "golden ears" in blind tests . The only things this amp has working against it is the lights/faceplate(easily fixed by unplugging them) and it's cost . Many people will not give this a amp a fair shake only becuase it's so cheap.

I'm not one of those people that say all amps sound the same but I do firmly beleave that the diffrences between well built and desighned amps is very small.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

The amps only cost $179 and that includes shipping.

Putting new components in one of these amps is like................

.......putting DUBS on a Hyundai.

I almost took a pic of the new Rolls Royce I saw yesterday with DUBS. I think that's almost as bad as your DUBS on a Hyundai analogy. LOL.

 

[majorloser]

I almost took a pic of the new Rolls Royce I saw yesterday with DUBS. I think that's almost as bad as your DUBS on a Hyundai analogy. LOL.

But at least in that case the vehicle is worth more than the rims.

 

[beppe61]

... I'm not one of those people that say all amps sound the same but I do firmly beleave that the diffrences between well built and desighned amps is very small.

I agree but found some opinions about the amount of power supply capacitance in the A500 (i.e. 6600uF/channel) not enough to sustain most dynamic passages expecially with low/complex impedance loads.
No real speaker is a pure resistive load.
Some savings must have been done in the unit and usually the overall performance suffers.
The output Toshiba's bjts are ok, the transformer seems Ok.
Those humble Xunda (?) filter caps look suspicious to my eyes.
And high capacitance/quality filter caps are "vital" for any power amp performance.
If only there were more space around them on the pcbs they would be already away from my A500.
An amount of about 20.000uF/channel seems to be the norm on well designed power amps (in some case the amount is just enourmous).

Regards,

beppe