B+W 803D vrs Paradigm Signature S8

[blackfly]

Good evening to all. I am new to Audioholics but not new to audio. Anyway.

I just recently purchased a brand new Bryston 14B SST amp with the intent of getting new speakers as well, and it seemed obvious that if the amp is of sufficent quality, then it cannot be a factor. Thus, the 14B SST was chosen. I love it and relish any time to listen to it. But the speakers cannot yet come for about 2 months (when I move). After research, I have narrowed the field down to 2. B+W 803D and Paradigm Signature S8. I am aware the 803D is a bit more, but if I can convince myself (with your help) I am not concerned with the extra expendature if it gets me what I want. I am a Canadian, and thus the Paradigms would be an easy choice, to say nothing I have used them for 15 years. The S8's are beautiful, sound as good, but I have not tried them in my home (or the B+W either as this would be moot given I am moving). With this post I am trying to get a feel for what others feel. Before you ignore this:

I am aware that what YOU think is irrelevant. I am looking for thoughts from others who have listened to them and bought them or not, and the reasons why. Perhaps there is something I overlooked. Has anyone needed to warranty either? Is there anything in the "real world" that might not be revealing? Is either very placement constrained? Has extended listening by anyone who has them shown anything that only long term use could reveal? Any details, no matter how small would be greatly helpful. Frankly, despite the cost differential, I am not totally convinced on either (buy I am leaning strongly towards one) and I am looking for any small detail that can sway my decision one way or another. Obviously, salemen are going to tell you anything (although high end dealers are a better crowd to be with as they already know you know something, so thats helpful) but really, the decision for either as a clear winner is hard.

I am not totally convinced either the fact the 803D having one less bass driver is any detriment, but if anyone can let me know on this fact..... I myself plan to run the speakers (whichever it is) full range as the amp has such good low end it is unbelievable.

Thank you all in advance for the time to reply.

 

[codexp3]

The 803D made it into my final 4, but I liked the S8s the best. I actually liked the dynaudios a bit more than B&W. I loved the tweeters on the paradigms. The 803Ds are a bit harsh after prolonged listening. I picked up my s8s, c5, and s4s on Saturday and couldn't be happier. (Until I can get the Salon2s). Maybe pick up a used pair in a year or so.

 

[TLS Guy]

Good evening to all. I am new to Audioholics but not new to audio. Anyway.

I just recently purchased a brand new Bryston 14B SST amp with the intent of getting new speakers as well, and it seemed obvious that if the amp is of sufficent quality, then it cannot be a factor. Thus, the 14B SST was chosen. I love it and relish any time to listen to it. But the speakers cannot yet come for about 2 months (when I move). After research, I have narrowed the field down to 2. B+W 803D and Paradigm Signature S8. I am aware the 803D is a bit more, but if I can convince myself (with your help) I am not concerned with the extra expendature if it gets me what I want. I am a Canadian, and thus the Paradigms would be an easy choice, to say nothing I have used them for 15 years. The S8's are beautiful, sound as good, but I have not tried them in my home (or the B+W either as this would be moot given I am moving). With this post I am trying to get a feel for what others feel. Before you ignore this:

I am aware that what YOU think is irrelevant. I am looking for thoughts from others who have listened to them and bought them or not, and the reasons why. Perhaps there is something I overlooked. Has anyone needed to warranty either? Is there anything in the "real world" that might not be revealing? Is either very placement constrained? Has extended listening by anyone who has them shown anything that only long term use could reveal? Any details, no matter how small would be greatly helpful. Frankly, despite the cost differential, I am not totally convinced on either (buy I am leaning strongly towards one) and I am looking for any small detail that can sway my decision one way or another. Obviously, salemen are going to tell you anything (although high end dealers are a better crowd to be with as they already know you know something, so thats helpful) but really, the decision for either as a clear winner is hard.

I am not totally convinced either the fact the 803D having one less bass driver is any detriment, but if anyone can let me know on this fact..... I myself plan to run the speakers (whichever it is) full range as the amp has such good low end it is unbelievable.

Thank you all in advance for the time to reply.

Having one less driver is no detriment. Both the 803D and 802 D have another half octave of low end reach. There really is a difference in an F3 10 Hz lower. The B & W midrange is one of the best in the business. Can you spring for the B & W 802? The mid enclosure is worth the price.
I think with your high end amp, and considering you want to run full range, I would go with the B & W.

 

[Davemcc]

I've had the chance to listen to the S8 and the 803S (not D). I would choose the B&W over the Paradigm. The S8 was in a dedicated demo room, but I found I just didn't like them especially for the price. I thought that the mids were too pronounced, too resonant (something like that, hard to describe). I believe my words at the time were that I felt I was listening to the cabinet instead of the music. The B&W were much better in this regard, very smooth and enjoyable. This is just my subjective opinion, YMMV.

 

[codexp3]

I've had the chance to listen to the S8 and the 803S (not D). I would choose the B&W over the Paradigm. The S8 was in a dedicated demo room, but I found I just didn't like them especially for the price. I thought that the mids were too pronounced, too resonant (something like that, hard to describe). I believe my words at the time were that I felt I was listening to the cabinet instead of the music. The B&W were much better in this regard, very smooth and enjoyable. This is just my subjective opinion, YMMV.

I liked the 803 D but HATED the 803S! The tweeter on the S is VERY metallic. It bothered my ears after twenty minutes. If you listen to the S make sure you listen for a good 30 minutes with something the features the tweeters. The speaker had an awesome sound stage, but drove me nuts w/ prolonged listening.

 

[blackfly]

Having one less driver is no detriment. Both the 803D and 802 D have another half octave of low end reach. There really is a difference in an F3 10 Hz lower. The B & W midrange is one of the best in the business. Can you spring for the B & W 802? The mid enclosure is worth the price.
I think with your high end amp, and considering you want to run full range, I would go with the B & W.

I would love the 802D but it IS out of my price range (which is why I did not mention it). I suppose I could finance the difference, but I am not able to live with the debt. Frankly, the 803D is my limit.

But thanks.

 

[blackfly]

I've had the chance to listen to the S8 and the 803S (not D). I would choose the B&W over the Paradigm. The S8 was in a dedicated demo room, but I found I just didn't like them especially for the price. I thought that the mids were too pronounced, too resonant (something like that, hard to describe). I believe my words at the time were that I felt I was listening to the cabinet instead of the music. The B&W were much better in this regard, very smooth and enjoyable. This is just my subjective opinion, YMMV.

Can you recall how long ago this was? There are 2 versions of the S8, the V1 and V2 (the V2 is newer and has the beryllium tweeter). The midrange driver was addressed as well.

I like the 803S as well but feel I can afford to spend more to get more.

 

[TLS Guy]

I would love the 802D but it IS out of my price range (which is why I did not mention it). I suppose I could finance the difference, but I am not able to live with the debt. Frankly, the 803D is my limit.

But thanks.

Then the 803 D will do you very nicely.

 

[blackfly]

The 803D made it into my final 4, but I liked the S8s the best. I actually liked the dynaudios a bit more than B&W. I loved the tweeters on the paradigms. The 803Ds are a bit harsh after prolonged listening. I picked up my s8s, c5, and s4s on Saturday and couldn't be happier. (Until I can get the Salon2s). Maybe pick up a used pair in a year or so.

Nice to hear. I am not a home theatre fan myself, strictly 2 channel. I am not running a sub either but I do have one that I may use if needed. I agree with the Salons as well. If ony my lottery ticket paid off I would not be asking this post.....

Could you PM me at your leisure? I would like to ask more in depth questions (if you permit) that are kind of out of scope with this post, something only a user and owner would know. Thanks in advance.

 

[blackfly]

Then the 803 D will do you very nicely.

I agree, but so would the S8's, which is why the decision is so hard. I am trying to illict any thoughts and feelings to help me decide.

The 803D has 3 bass drivers, the S8 4. If I recall, the S8 magnets are larger too. The 803D has only one port, the S8 2 with each at different heights and sizes for tuning. 803D has a diamond tweeter, the S8 a beryllium. The differences are so slight that really I could not choose.

In terms of sound, I like both but find both different for equally pleasing reasons. I kind of like somewhat (this is relative) forward midrange I find in all my listening I like to tune it up at this range. The highs on both are excellent, and the bass is excellent on both but I am not sure if either is BETTER than the other, in either extention, clarity or loudness (which is moot as if I could get it that loud I would not be hearing for long).

It is a nice choice to have, but as the time rolls nearer, it is getting harder.

And since sound tests at the store are in dissimilar environments it is even harder to judge. And the deposit to try at home is no small change, even more so given I will not be living where I am for long.

I wonder if this has any validity but is there anything to the fact B+W is "established" and the Paradigm is the "new kid on the block" at least in the high end is concerned. I am wondering if any comments are somewhat (perhaps unconsciously) biased to think that there is no way Paradigm can compete with a company like B+W who has been doing it for decades. Good is good, regardless of what be it cars, jewellry or speakers.

 

[Davemcc]

Can you recall how long ago this was? There are 2 versions of the S8, the V1 and V2 (the V2 is newer and has the beryllium tweeter). The midrange driver was addressed as well.

I like the 803S as well but feel I can afford to spend more to get more.

I heard them last summer. I don't know what version they were.

 

[codexp3]

Can you recall how long ago this was? There are 2 versions of the S8, the V1 and V2 (the V2 is newer and has the beryllium tweeter). The midrange driver was addressed as well.

I like the 803S as well but feel I can afford to spend more to get more.

Beryllium also made it's way into the Ultima Salon/Studio series by Revel. I love the sound of the material.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I need to start some controversy

http://www.hometheatermag.com/floorloudspeakers/1004paradigm/index2.html

http://www.hometheatermag.com/floorloudspeakers/1005bw/index2.html

From HT Mag regarding the Paradigm S8:

Freq Resp: 42 Hz - 20 kHz +/-3dB On-Axis

Drivers: 1 Tweeter, 1 Midrange, 4 Woofers

"Bass is one of the first things you'll notice about the S8s—as in, there's a lot of it, even by large tower standards. I'd expect no less from a speaker that has four drivers dedicated to lower frequencies alone, but the really impressive part was how the S8s created such powerful, punchy bass without sounding boomy or muddy."

Please explain to me how can you get A LOT OF BASS if the frequency response only goes down to 42 Hz @ -3dB?

"Powerful, punchy bass without sounding boomy or muddy" is fine, but only @ 42 Hz?

That doesn't seem very impressive.

I think it would be impressive if it can produce powerful, punchy bass without sounding boomy or muddy @ 20 Hz, NOT @ 42 Hz?

How can bass possibly sound "BOOMY" @ 42 Hz to begin with?

Tom Nouisane:
BOSE AM-15 System MSRP $1,399
SATELLITES
Frequency Response:..... 280 Hz to 13.3 kHz ±10.5 dB
BASS MODULE
Frequency Response:.... 46 Hz to 202 Hz ±2.3 dB

Now, of course, I would never compare the Bose to anything here, but I'm just trying to say that at 42 Hz, I just don't see how the S8 could possibly produce enough LOW BASS to be BOOMY or muddy to begin with.

Another question:
It's my impression that the Midrange is the most important, right?
Most of the sound we hear will be in the midrange, right?

We have the subwoofers for the LOW frequencies, and we usually don't hear very much frequencies above 16 kHz, right?

So the most important driver is the Midrange.

So why does the S8 have only ONE Midrange driver and FOUR Woofers?

Are they saying that the FOUR Woofers are more important?

If so, why can they only produce 42Hz @ -3dB from these 4 woofers?

I'm just thinking out loud, so please help me understand the reasoning.

Oh, by the way, the B&W 803D on-axis: 46 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 3dB.

Okay, I got my helmet.

 

[codexp3]

The midrange on the s8s is amazing. They have a single 7" driver, but the upgraded magnets vs. the studio series made a big enough difference that I felt it worth the 3600 dollar price difference. I did audition them against your 7000 super towers...If you go to the Audioholics even in Orlando (which I'll be at) you're welcome to come hear the Paradigms (I'm in Tampa just one hour away), I think you'll admit they can compete with any speaker throughout all frequencies.

 

[blackfly]

http://www.hometheatermag.com/floorloudspeakers/1004paradigm/index2.html

http://www.hometheatermag.com/floorloudspeakers/1005bw/index2.html

From HT Mag regarding the Paradigm S8:

Freq Resp: 42 Hz - 20 kHz +/-3dB On-Axis

Drivers: 1 Tweeter, 1 Midrange, 4 Woofers

"Bass is one of the first things you'll notice about the S8s—as in, there's a lot of it, even by large tower standards. I'd expect no less from a speaker that has four drivers dedicated to lower frequencies alone, but the really impressive part was how the S8s created such powerful, punchy bass without sounding boomy or muddy."

Please explain to me how can you get A LOT OF BASS if the frequency response only goes down to 42 Hz @ -3dB?

"Powerful, punchy bass without sounding boomy or muddy" is fine, but only @ 42 Hz?

That doesn't seem very impressive.

I think it would be impressive if it can produce powerful, punchy bass without sounding boomy or muddy @ 20 Hz, NOT @ 42 Hz?

How can bass possibly sound "BOOMY" @ 42 Hz to begin with?

Tom Nouisane:
BOSE AM-15 System MSRP $1,399
SATELLITES
Frequency Response:..... 280 Hz to 13.3 kHz ±10.5 dB
BASS MODULE
Frequency Response:.... 46 Hz to 202 Hz ±2.3 dB

Now, of course, I would never compare the Bose to anything here, but I'm just trying to say that at 42 Hz, I just don't see how the S8 could possibly produce enough LOW BASS to be BOOMY or muddy to begin with.

Another question:
It's my impression that the Midrange is the most important, right?
Most of the sound we hear will be in the midrange, right?

We have the subwoofers for the LOW frequencies, and we usually don't hear very much frequencies above 16 kHz, right?

So the most important driver is the Midrange.

So why does the S8 have only ONE Midrange driver and FOUR Woofers?

Are they saying that the FOUR Woofers are more important?

If so, why can they only produce 42Hz @ -3dB from these 4 woofers?

I'm just thinking out loud, so please help me understand the reasoning.

Oh, by the way, the B&W 803D on-axis: 46 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 3dB.

Okay, I got my helmet.

I think you will need a whole suit of armour.

I am not interested in Bose. Moot point.

I am not interested in subwoofers. I am not a HT fan. My Bryston 14B SST is $7000 alone, and it is renowned for low end extention. Sub not needed.

Both the 803D and S8 spec out worse than they actually are. I cannot believe you are falling for the old trap of specmanship. I thought that went out with the 70's and Monster Receivers.

BOTH 803D and S8 measure and play far lower than the listed spec.

Reason for multiple woofers? More surface area and smaller cones yield tighter sound. Best of both worlds.

And you are complaining about midrange? Gee, I recall the B+W line uses only one in every speaker. Your point?

Boomy bass is in the 60 to 80HZ region.

I can tell from your post you have not heard them. I am interested and amused by your offering, but not intellectualized by it.

BTW, given your reasoning on the 42 -3dB point on the S8, the 803D should be worse given it is only at 46?

Very amusing.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

You are looking at the off axis Frequency Response you goof-ball. They go down to the 26hz range.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/floorloudspeakers/1004paradigm/index2.html

http://www.hometheatermag.com/floorloudspeakers/1005bw/index2.html

From HT Mag regarding the Paradigm S8:

Freq Resp: 42 Hz - 20 kHz +/-3dB On-Axis

Drivers: 1 Tweeter, 1 Midrange, 4 Woofers

"Bass is one of the first things you'll notice about the S8s—as in, there's a lot of it, even by large tower standards. I'd expect no less from a speaker that has four drivers dedicated to lower frequencies alone, but the really impressive part was how the S8s created such powerful, punchy bass without sounding boomy or muddy."

Please explain to me how can you get A LOT OF BASS if the frequency response only goes down to 42 Hz @ -3dB?

"Powerful, punchy bass without sounding boomy or muddy" is fine, but only @ 42 Hz?

That doesn't seem very impressive.

I think it would be impressive if it can produce powerful, punchy bass without sounding boomy or muddy @ 20 Hz, NOT @ 42 Hz?

How can bass possibly sound "BOOMY" @ 42 Hz to begin with?

Tom Nouisane:
BOSE AM-15 System MSRP $1,399
SATELLITES
Frequency Response:..... 280 Hz to 13.3 kHz ±10.5 dB
BASS MODULE
Frequency Response:.... 46 Hz to 202 Hz ±2.3 dB

Now, of course, I would never compare the Bose to anything here, but I'm just trying to say that at 42 Hz, I just don't see how the S8 could possibly produce enough LOW BASS to be BOOMY or muddy to begin with.

Another question:
It's my impression that the Midrange is the most important, right?
Most of the sound we hear will be in the midrange, right?

We have the subwoofers for the LOW frequencies, and we usually don't hear very much frequencies above 16 kHz, right?

So the most important driver is the Midrange.

So why does the S8 have only ONE Midrange driver and FOUR Woofers?

Are they saying that the FOUR Woofers are more important?

If so, why can they only produce 42Hz @ -3dB from these 4 woofers?

I'm just thinking out loud, so please help me understand the reasoning.

Oh, by the way, the B&W 803D on-axis: 46 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 3dB.

Okay, I got my helmet.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You are looking at the off axis Frequency Response you goof-ball. They go down to the 26hz range.

Oops. I can't even do controversy right.

Must have of been the postprandial sedation I'm feeling from my lunch.

Hey, wait just a cotton-picken-minute here, mister.

It's a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses graph -- done by Home Theater Magazine.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My Bryston 14B SST is $7000 alone.

Wow, that Byrston 14B looks awesome. I bet it does over 1,000 watts @ 4 ohms easily. I think I might get that Bryston 875HT 8 Channel amp one of these days. I also want 3 of those Bryston BP6 preamps

I cannot believe you are falling for the old trap of specmanship.

Numbers are great for debating.

In real life applications, how the speakers actually sound is the most important factor. I mean they have to sound great to you, but it's all personal preferences. What may sound great to one person may not sound great to another person. So debating on subjective measures is not as fun. It's just one opinion against another opinion. But numbers are more concrete.

Very amusing.

Thanks. I was getting kind of bored around here.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I agree Def but even you would prefer the sound of the S8 to the DTs!!!!!!!!!!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The midrange on the s8s is amazing. They have a single 7" driver, but the upgraded magnets vs. the studio series made a big enough difference that I felt it worth the 3600 dollar price difference. I did audition them against your 7000 super towers...If you go to the Audioholics even in Orlando (which I'll be at) you're welcome to come hear the Paradigms (I'm in Tampa just one hour away), I think you'll admit they can compete with any speaker throughout all frequencies.

I'm sure the S8s sound amazing. They better be for around $6,000/pr?

So did you get any discounts?

I just have to give Paradigms and Yahama owners a hard time in general.