ATI AT2000 amps

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So you feed the Denon a digital signal then. From what kind of source?

For music, I use a server (WMA Lossless). So I use Server to Denon via CAT6 Ethernet cable.

For movies, I use BD to Denon via HDMI.

Digital is the way for me.

But I want to see 3rd party Frequency Response, THD, Crosstalk, & SNR on the preamp you think sounds better than the Denon 990/3310.

BTW, are you just making fun of my AVR-990 & AVR-3310CI, or also my AVR-5308CI & AVP-A1HDCI?

Or just all AVR in general?

Have you seen the measurements on the $1K Yamaha RX-A1010?

"Response measures –0.03 dB at 20 Hz, –0.01 dB at 20 kilohertz...THD+N was less than 0.007 percent at 1 kHz when driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load. Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –101.96 dB left to right and –97.36 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –108.80 dBrA."

Yamaha Aventage RX-A1010 A/V Receiver HT Labs Measures | Home Theater

Will your pre-amp measure better than this $1K (street price lower) AVR?

If I had bought the $1K Yamaha instead of $1500 Denon, would you still make fun of it?

I don't see any 3rd party measurements (FR, THD, XTalk, SNR, etc) on the 2 preamp you suggested. You can't seriously expect me to just believe what they say, do you? Those companies lie all the time on their specs. You do know that, right? I hope you know that fact of life.

 

[Irvrobinson]

You keep talking measurements... there are many ways to measure electronics and acoustics... to what metrology are you referring to?


Electrical/Analog

Fs?

THD?

RMS?

IMD?

Crosstalk?

Noise?

Dynamic range and SNR?

CMRR if balanced/dual differential?

transient response IE slew rate and rise time?

output impedance and dampening factor?

DIGITAL

Jitter?

Sample rate?

Bit Depth?

Sample accuracy/synchronization IE clock recovery?

Differential non-linearity?

Integral non-linearity?

PS BTW THD is totally USELESS for higher order harmonics and crossover distortion at a given THD is more audible than clip at same THD!

Hmmm... some of these aren't measurements, per se, they're design considerations, like sample rate and bit depth (you mean word depth, I assume).

For most of the distortion-rated metrics, are you implying that you believe that distortions of any kind that are 80db or more below 2v are going to be audible? I ask, because all of the distortion types you've listed, including SNR, are likely more than -80db in ADTG's AVR.

Jitter is the one topic that is difficult to discuss, because I don't know what the jitter behavior of the AVR is, and there's still significant industry controversy on the audibility of jitter and at what level it is important.

I would add that I still think your tone on this forum is inappropriate and unnecessarily adversarial.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So I take it your not even willing to try something different like the Ref 10.2?

Have you heard the term "audiophool" ?

An audiophool is someone who spends money on components that have been proven to make little or no difference (by Audio Critic and other professionals via DBT, etc). Yet the audiophool truly still believes he can tell the difference regardless of what all these well-established professionals are saying! The audiophool tries to justify.

I do spend stupid amount of money like an audiophool.

But the difference is, I know I can't tell the difference and I will not justify it.

I know to trust my personal experience and the words of those who are a lot more knowledgeable than I in this hobby of audio.

I trust the Audio Critics and the PhD, engineers, and scientists. A lot of the guys here are engineers, pharmacists, physicians, electricians, scientists, musicians, & professionals or well on their way to becoming one.

Let's respect one another.

 

[PENG]

So GranteedEV what can you tell me about the differences between the Reference 10.2 and AVR-990 in terms of converters, I/V and the quality of their respective single/balanced circuits/outputs.

I could be wrong but I suspect he may not bother because of what he said in post#132. To save you time I copied the relevant part below. I agree there are differences as he cited four different types already . Even the most accurate instruments have limits and "tolerances" (hence his 1) so even if the samples measure the same the probability of differences still exist, just not measurable.

To some people, difference 3) could be a factor but to most consumers, difference 4) is the one that counts. I just read the last two pages of this thread and got the feeling that people seem to be arguing about nothing that matter much. Again, that's just based on the last couple of pages.

THere's four kinds of differences

1) Theoretical differences that measure the same
2) Measurable differences that sound the same
3) Audible differences that barely sound subtly "different", but not particularily "better" or "worse" at the end of it all with biases controlled.
4) Audible differences that immediately, and obviously negatively affect perceived SQ.

Please stop wasting my time with 1,2, and as far as the scope of this thread is concerned, 3.

By the way, in case you are interested in the theories of the topic harmonics, I hope you have a good understanding of Fourier Series/Tranform. I recommend anyone who wouldn't hesitate dropping tech/eng terms related to harmonics, square wave response etc., to at least read up on Fourier at Wiki as they typically explain things in ways that most can understand, to a point. I say this because 1) it seems too often people would drop technical terms (e.g. the perhaps most mentioned Ohm's law, power formula etc., yet it seems obvious they don't really know the topic well enough and sometimes that resulted in hearsays base on misconception and 2) Your last post to ADTG. If you do have a good understanding of harmonics and the related math/elect theories then great, and it is good to know in case there may be more conversations on this topic.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I really hope solid-state doesn't try to argue with PENG on electrical theories, ohms law, and all that.

 

[templemaners]

I really hope solid-state doesn't try to argue with PENG on electrical theories, ohms law, and all that.

I'm sort of hoping he does, just for the sheer entertainment value.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm sort of hoping he does, just for the sheer entertainment value.

Yeah, you're right. I'm in.

 

[GranteedEV]

Also AcuDef has yet to tell me where the converter is in the chain with his 990. Perhaps he doesn't understand what I'm talking about.

...or perhaps he doesn't care.

I have AVR-3310 access and I can pull the analog section out and compare the differences with the Kingwa piece if you guys like!

You can identify it in a < 0.1db level matched ABX?

As for GranteedEV, stop wasting your time? You just joined the conversation!

Thread Title - ATI AT2000 amps

BTW I take it you work in this field as well GranteedEV.

What's it to you which field I work in? This is a hobbyist website last I checked.

Do you only sell box store AVRs IE do you work at Bestbuy?

Describe a box store AVR for me please. In terms of what you hear from it.

Well you should because it's obvious like walter there you have no faith in the products you sell.

huh? What products do I sell?

I wonder how your customers would feel if they knew that you guys think most of your product is BS that you just sold for 4 figures.

As wonderful as yourself, looking at electronics schematics to describe psychoacoustics. It's obvious from your handle that you have obvious biases that suggest you're more interested in stuff, "Audioholics don't care about but DIY Audio does. because they're there for the building aspect not the listening aspect" Audioholics are interested in sound waves, not electrical signals, although there's people here who strongly understand the relevant electrical concepts and the associated psychoacoutsics, people like TLS Guy, PENG, Gene.

So I take it your not even willing to try something different like the Ref 10.2?

It's not about willingness. It's about reason. Show us why he should, with perceptual relevance as the focal point of that reason. "X has a better schematic than Y" (and in this case, "because I'm smart and you're not") sure isn't exciting anyone.

I WILL RUN DOWN THE ROAD NUDE WITH AN AUDIOHOLICS LOGO PAINTED ON MY CHEST

O Lord; no. Besides we have Alex for that, and he's even losing weight for the running part.

If you don't understand what I'm asking then please ask me to explain it!

okay. Explain why you need your eyes to listen. BEcause that's what a schematic or an "internals pic" is a form of - sighted listening.

You keep talking measurements... there are many ways to measure electronics and acoustics... to what metrology are you referring to?

Electrical/Analog
Fs?
THD?
RMS?
IMD?
Crosstalk?
Noise?
Dynamic range and SNR?
CMRR if balanced/dual differential?
transient response IE slew rate and rise time?
output impedance and dampening factor?

DIGITAL

Jitter?
Sample rate?
Bit Depth?
Sample accuracy/synchronization IE clock recovery?
Differential non-linearity?
Integral non-linearity?

...Show us whatever measurement you, O Great Teacher, know and can scientifically prove is perceptually relevant to Hi Fidelity sound reproduction, which the "big box AVRs" are woefully inadequate in, whereas your schematics are clearly excellent in.

But please, do it in your own thread instead of hijacking this one.

 

[Solid-State]

First, are you actually calling professional people like us pharmacists & engineers "half a brain"?

WOW you have poor reading comprehension. I was referring to everyone LESS YOU TWO!

As for pharmacists... heck I thought all you guys do is count PILLS!

hahaha


At no time did I perform a character assassination like you classless lot!

WTF can't you guys debate something in a couth manor!

 

[fuzz092888]

Are you using the AVRs are analog preamps or are you using them as preamps AND CONVERTERS IE using HDMI or SP/DIF input?

And if you think all converters, I/V and line level circuits are the same your a fool!

Buddy you can swap bloody opamps and hear a difference OK...

Why do guys like you read stuff from Sig etc and take it in a black/white, yes/no it's this way period blahh blahh...

Get Sigfriend on here and lets see what he has to say. You might actually learn something about EE design and circuitry AcuDef because as it stands now you sure don't know nor understand much... heck Sig's active xover doesn't need those quality Wima caps and 1% Dale resistors etc... why not just drop cheap *** 5% resistors and Teapoo cheap *** electrolitics in there then ehh... you... uhh... misinformed individual with no excuse to be ignorant because of multiple thousands and thousands of posts, research and a topic of interest. Not to mention a good $50,000 worth of gear. How can all that be so yet your... uhh... CLUELESS!!!

WHAT GIVES!?!

Your thinking like Bill O'reilly does on a complex social issue.

It's not black and white buddy!!!

If you zoom in and look at the granularity regarding sonic performance and component quality/circuit design it's obvious to anyone with half a brain in EE design that there is a difference. Heck the friggin LAYOUT ALONE can have an impact!

To suggest otherwise is to show a totally lack of understanding and comprehension of EE design. Heck half of what I'm saying I bet you don't even understand and have to google like I/V conversion etc.

And I have to argue and debate your type whilst receiving multiple insults I smoke drugs, I'm this, I'm that... just like on AVS...

What the heck man...

DON'T YOU GUYS REALIZE WHEN SOMEONE THAT KNOWS WHAT THE FRIG THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT IS TAKING THE TIME AND PATIENTS TO EXPLAIN AND HELP YOU!

And you know what I get for my efforts for this from forums like AVS... a kick in the head and a bunch of insults...

Even when I indirectly help lineup that CBT GTG etc

BS

I've had it... I'm going back to my DIY EE circles where the people know what they are talking about and are not insulting to me...

It's a shame too!

AS YOU ALL LOSE (and not just knowledge also actual $$$)

You know once I was stupid and misinformed but you know what, I took it upon myself to educate because I love this stuff and have a passion for it.

I'm sorry for my blunt, brunt, crass, uhh... saber rattling ways regarding this stuff...

I just can't help it! I SPEAK THE TRUTH and just want to spread my evangelist doctrine.

I'm sorry for flying off the handle on here Audioholics!

I just can't believe it when I give such honest advice that's really hard to find in this hobby and then the two guys there, it wasn't you AcuDef, turn around and start insulting me saying I'm on drugs. Then when I question what I was wrong about in my statement the guy turns around and says everything I was saying was right!

Well what is it... am I on drugs and deserve INSULTS or what... OR am I RIGHT and I do perhaps know what I'm talking about...

Again I'm sorry for flying off the handle but again I'm being provoked.

Why? What's in it for these people flies on the wall... what motive could they possible have to provoke, anger and then get removed from the forums some one like me...

I'll tell you... they sell the BS product directly and indirectly and they don't want someone like me on here spilling the beans...

Like your Cinepro pall AccuDef that won't buy anything else but turns his nose up when looking at the AB version.... OF THE SAME FIGGING AMP!

OMG

And then he's paying like double to that Cinepro guy when Bob is selling them at "50%" off!!!

hahahah

WHAT A JOKE!

and I'm the insider here spilling the beans to help you guys yet...

I'm **** on... and by who flies on the wall...

THINK ABOUT IT

PS Their motive is more than nepotism I'll tell you that!

I don't know what you paid and it's none of my business. The point is it's the SAME PRODUCT.

That's the point I was trying to make.

I'm just sick of watching for YEARS middle men nail rich cats big bucks over and over again with turntables and other BS audio products. Then when those kinds of guys get into their own label they simply STENCIL it and then make outrageous claims like they actually engineered the piece.

I'm not saying any names in particular here either ok Cinepro guy! etc

I'm just sick of watching this from the sidelines... it's

DISHONEST

And you can argue people can spend what ever they want on anything but man... when you walk into someones world and nail them over say... 500% margin... YOUR A A-HOLE SCAMMER!!!

I've watched these guys and personally know some. They are slicker than **** in an ice flow man... and can convince a wealthy intelligent educated man (liberal arts) of complete BS.

And the thing that kills me... the customers actually think the boutique audio sales guy is THEIR FRIEND!!!!

hahahah


He just bought his 16 year old daughter a bloody Toyota Corolla on the deal DEWWWDDD!!!!

Walter,

When you had the conversation with AcuDef were you aware of the DB and Cinepro BEING THE SAME PRODUCT ESSENTIALLY!

You just admitted it didn't you!

So your two's comments and conversation were totally disingenuous and dishonest.

Well at least one side of the conversation was right... I dunno if AcuDef there is even smart enough with electronics to spot it as he didn't even seem to realize it's the same unit...

LOL

What is your connection to Cinepro Walter?

IMHO using different caps and older board revisions with different back plate connectors doesn't warrent the claim you engineered the piece and claiming so on a corp site is dishonest IHMO. Despite how ugly your Purple and Gold badge is!

hahah

Well the reason I said it's better than his current 990 and not "everything else" is because I don't want to get into a fight with guys like you coming on here with their 2 cents...

and then usually insulting me...

like you've indirectly done by calling me IGNORANT or saying I called others ignorant. I didn't use those words specifically so don't put words in my mouth.

I refuse to engage in that anymore! Believe what you will fuzz092888.

I'm not here to teach electronic design to guys like you!

NO OFFENSE

jinjuku when you look at the pricing for those products you mention you can only conclude more that Kingwa's piece is a HELL OF A DEAL. He could ask four times the price if he found the right slicker than sh|t in an iceflow NA or EU distro channels. But he doesn't ... and you know why?

BECAUSE MR. HE QINGHUA IS AN HONEST MAN

and a friggin RARITY in this HORRIBLY DISHONEST industry....

Are you for real! Elaborate description of you? You have not insulted me? I insulted you!?! I suggest you read what you and I posted!

I also suggest you reread what Walter said and did... total DISHONESTY trying to drum up sales online for Cinepro and using AcuDef etc to divert interested in AB amps directly. You two were pushing them towards Cinepro to PAY 50% MORE!

AND YOU KNEW IT'S THE SAME PRODUCT WALTER! (and probably AcuDef)

It's total waste of my time to engage this BS.

I seriously wonder how some people in this business live with themselves being such dishonest scammers and rip off artists.

I'm not saying this is the case for any of you nepotistic ______ guys thanking this MOST RUDE POST.

You guys are all in the same bed greasing the same wheel...

Obvious to anyone with HALF A BRAIN

WOW you have poor reading comprehension. I was referring to everyone LESS YOU TWO!

As for pharmacists... heck I thought all you guys do is count PILLS!

hahaha


At no time did I perform a character assassination like you classless lot!

WTF can't you guys debate something in a couth manor!

Can't you?

 

[Solid-State]

I found this through ATI2000 and my beloved Phil3.

I power Phil3 using Emotiva XPA2. I'm thinking getting an ATI through the influence of a few people here . Could I ask a dumb question of where and how to get one? Does ATI2004 mean 4 channels? I know it is "configurable".

I saw some "B-stock" ATIs - where to find them? But was with me regarding converter and line drive stage etc! You guys do know this is the most important part of the chain RIGHT!

I know Outlaw amps but they only have 5 or 7 channels from ATI, which I might consider for my home theater in the future.

Thanks!

OK this guys post...

Why not tell him it's BS and that the Emotiva amp is the same as the ATI!

OK if it's BETTER (the ATI) I want measurments blah blah and a reason why it's better.

Praytel why wasn't this tone taken with him?

There is a hell of a lot LESS ACOUSTIC DIFFERENCE between that Emo amp and the ATI than a box store Denon AVR's converter and line driver compared to Kingwas product!

Why not attack on the assertion the ATI is better than the Emo?

I have read posts by some of you that claim all amps are the same just like this BS claim regarding converters and line drive stages etc.

owhh

I bet it's because there is some sorta economic reason like a finders fee/cut. Does Cinepro give you a finders fee Walter?

CLASSY

PS AcuDef I want to hear an explanation why the ATI is better than the Emo and I want it with measurement!

touché!

 

[fuzz092888]

I know why... because you classy guys have AN ECONOMIC vested interest for finders fee regarding ATI sales....

CLASSY

PS AcuDef I want to hear an explanation why the ATI is better than the Emo and I want it with measurement!

touché!

Again, more unsubstantiated claims. We want proof of what you say, I'm sure someone will provide the proof you ask for (unless they've tired of this conversation)

Please stop saying things you have no proof of, it's slanderous and irresponsible. It is only your opinion that they have a vested interest economic interest in ATI, whereas many others view it as passion for a product that they fully believe in because they have tried and used many other brands, only to find that ATI is great bang for your buck.

I'd also like to point out that you used the argument (and correct me if I'm wrong) that said something to the effect of small changes can make a big difference (something about the layout I believe). Yet you fail to grasp that there are some big and small changes between cinepro and AB international. What exactly they are I couldn't say because I have neither in front of me, but there are differences, which make them unique, albeit with a similar design.

 

[Solid-State]

Can't you?

Not one comment was a specific character assassination comment but specifics regarding audio and video technology and posters perceived comprehension of such.

The attacks on me are totally character and personal based and most have little to do with audio and video or electronics!

You know what kills me AcuDef guy. I really posted a great product that you IMHO could use with your Salon 2 and Orions that would really improve your listening enjoyment. I did this because I had concern for your setup and I WANTED TO HELP YOU! For doing this I'm told I'm a jackass wasting money blah blahh... and I don't know what I'm talking about blahh blahh... then big personal character assassination comments and massive insults. Then I'm accused of what I'm so fullheartedly AGAINST! BS audio products... Then the very guys that attack me point me to a website they are involved in economically where they sell the kind of BS rip off products they claim to be so adamantly against... OMG you lot are CRAZY

Buying ATI over Emo makes a big difference right AcuDef! Much bigger difference and sonic return for your dollar than a quality PCM1704UK converter over a boxstore AVR AK converter with a couple cheap opamps!

 

[fuzz092888]

Please quote character based attacks on you.

I don't recall anyone calling you a jackass, nor do I remember anyone personally attacking you, other than Walter saying something about getting torn to pieces. Other than that it seems to me all comments have been about your conduct, the way you word things, and your harsh comments regarding people you don't know.

If these comments seem personal in nature, it's because the way one behaves is a personal matter. That being said comments about someones conduct are not necessarily personal and because you took them personally does not mean that the intent was personal in nature.

If you're so dissatisfied with your experience here and on AVS please leave and go to your DIY circles. It sounds like it will be best for all involved.

 

[Solid-State]

many others view it as passion for a product that they fully believe in because they have tried and used many other brands, only to find that ATI is great bang for your buck.

And I can't say this about Audio GD converters and Kingwa!!!!

Without being attacked!

I don't recall anyone calling you a jackass, nor do I remember anyone personally attacking you

You mean the SPECIFIC WORD JACKASS? Your arguing semantics there guy and you friggin KNOW IT!

God I feel like I'm a left winger being interviewed on Fox News!

Reread the entire thread fuzz092888 I can't be bothered to quote the insults.

If you're so dissatisfied with your experience here and on AVS please leave and go to your DIY circles. It sounds like it will be best for all involved.

No way you guys are trying to drive people like me away so you can carry on your Astroturfing and sockpuppetry to help generate sales for you buddies just like Walter there not mentioning AD's product is essentially the SAME as Cinepros.

 

[walter duque]

I bet it's because there is some sorta economic reason like a finders fee/cut. Does Cinepro give you a finders fee Walter?

TBH with you I could only get one at that price and that would have to be for personal use only and not to resale. I have the old 3k6 which I purchased in 97. Special pricing on Cinepro amps I could'nt get for anyone. Besides what makes you think that everyone is just out to make money, there are people like myself and others that do try to help each other out to save a few bucks. I got and AH member a pair of speakers that cost almost 6K for $1800.-- no fee/cut, I would be insulted if that would even be offered to me.

 

[Solid-State]

TBH with you I could only get one at that price and that would have to be for personal use only and not to resale. I have the old 3k6 which I purchased in 97. Special pricing on Cinepro amps I could'nt get for anyone.

I'm very interested in purchasing Bob's home theater amps. I think I'll give him a call on Monday and I'll also see if he's willing to share what happened with Cinepro etc. and who you guys are. (particularly you Walter) I can only imagine how pleased Bob is they have someone else manufacturing HIS DESIGN prob with no royalties etc as well right...

CLASSY

I also wonder what Morris thinks of all of this...

 

[fuzz092888]

You are more than welcome to, but the way in which you go about it is not acceptable. If you can't see why, and can't see why you have gotten some of the reactions from other members including myself than you are glossing over some of your own failings or do not adequately understand how to communicate via forum.

I have been following the thread in case you haven't noticed and I fail to see any personal attacks other than to attack the way you attack others.

Frankly the way in which you've conducted yourself in this thread is abrasive, for the most part, and not conducive to allowing for meaningful discussion.

Furthermore, if you had the proof to back up your claims it would have stopped all this nonsense immediately and relevant conversation would have followed about the pros and cons about whatever proof you had. Instead you insist on calling other people integrity into question with, what do you know, no proof as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if you don't get another response after this one because everyone else here has added you to your ignore list.

In layman's terms, you just ain't no fun to talk to cuz you hoot and holler about stuff without puttin' yer money where your mouth is, not to mention your comments aren't exactly covered in velvet, even by the standards of informal conversation.

So with that I bid thee adieu.

I can't even finish a short reply and you've already insisted on insulting someone again *sigh* more unsubstantiated claims about Walter, who doesn't happen to manufacture electronics in any capacity.

 

[Solid-State]

they're design considerations, like sample rate and bit depth (you mean word depth, I assume).

SEMANTICS!

Is that all you got!

BTW audio stream encoder bit depth (they mean the same thing buddy) isn't a design consideration!

You're just arguing with me for the sake of it now... trying to INCITE!

 

[fuzz092888]

You argue semantics as well. Teapot callin' the kettle black.

and how you can say calling two guys YOU DON'T KNOW dishonest disingenuous isn't a personal attack?

semantics?

You hold yourself and others to two completely different standards, which makes you the dishonest disingenuous one.