jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Point taken but do you know why he does this? He bin sorts and hand matches components right...

It's nuts and time consuming I know... but at $1850 bucks do you seriously think he's including that in the pricing!

BTW the PCB is 2MM double copper/stringy board at 70uM copper. These are TOP NOTCH PCBs. You think he'd go to such great lengths for layout and PSU sections and opto isolation and then use cheap PCBs !?!

hahah yeah right

PS the SMT components are placed at the PCB fab I'd assume...
I'm not knocking anything BTW. I just wanted to be clear on that. This product is like any other and the market will speak. They aren't going to go flying off the shelves at $1850. It could be he doesn't want that market nor could I blame him.

Does it do a better job than a $599 Apogee Duet 2 connected up to a $599 Mac? Who's to say. I do know that Apogee is considered the gold standard of audio production and mastering.

Here is a pic of a PCB out of the XPA-1. $1000 fully balanced amp:



It's a clean layout, heavy duty PCB and looks to be a low part count.
 
S

Solid-State

Banned
So I'm not sure if you misspoke, but it seems to me for all your claims of the 10.2 being so much better and that everyone else is ignorant etc etc, why would your claim only be that it sounds as good as the 990?

It seems to me that the 990 is a much better deal if it sounds as good as the reference 10.2 since the 990 costs $880 and the reference 10.2 costs $1845+shipping.

Maybe I'm mistaken, or I misread what you posted, but if they both objectively output a similar signal, similarly enough to not be audible or very audible, then it doesn't seem worth it.

Well the reason I said it's better than his current 990 and not "everything else" is because I don't want to get into a fight with guys like you coming on here with their 2 cents...

and then usually insulting me...

like you've indirectly done by calling me IGNORANT or saying I called others ignorant. I didn't use those words specifically so don't put words in my mouth.

I refuse to engage in that anymore! Believe what you will fuzz092888.

I'm not here to teach electronic design to guys like you!

NO OFFENSE

jinjuku when you look at the pricing for those products you mention you can only conclude more that Kingwa's piece is a HELL OF A DEAL. He could ask four times the price if he found the right slicker than sh|t in an iceflow NA or EU distro channels. But he doesn't ... and you know why?

BECAUSE MR. HE QINGHUA IS AN HONEST MAN

and a friggin RARITY in this HORRIBLY DISHONEST industry....
 
Last edited:
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Well the reason I said it's better than his current 990....
Does it have better THD, FR, Crosstalk, & SNR than the AVR-990 (which I'm sure you know is the same as the AVR-3310CI) ?

If so, by how much?

And if it doesn't measure better, than how can it sound better (from an engineering point of view) ?
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
jinjuku when you look at the pricing for those products you mention you can only conclude more that Kingwa's piece is a HELL OF A DEAL. He could ask four times the price if he found the right slicker or EU distro channels. But he doesn't ... and you know why?
First lets tone down the bypass of the language filter. Please.

2nd I can only know if it is a deal by direct comparison. I don't even know if it is better than my EMU 1212M. It's $159 pro mastering card that if you do any cursory research has a good following.

In the day and age of transistor counts in the billions on a 28nm process die running at clock frequencies in the Gigahertz and four core CPU's for $99. Well I think something as simple as competent A/D and D/A circuit design has been spoken of for years.

The question is this: What problem is being solved by a $2K+ pre?
 
Last edited:
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Well the reason I said it's better than his current 990 and not "everything else" is because I don't want to get into a fight with guys like you coming on here with their 2 cents...

and then usually insulting me...

like you've indirectly done by calling me IGNORANT or saying I called others ignorant. I didn't use those words specifically so don't put words in my mouth.

I refuse to engage in that anymore! Believe what you will fuzz092888.

I'm not here to teach electronic design to guys like you!

NO OFFENSE

jinjuku when you look at the pricing for those products you mention you can only conclude more that Kingwa's piece is a HELL OF A DEAL. He could ask four times the price if he found the right slicker than sh|t in an iceflow NA or EU distro channels. But he doesn't ... and you know why?

BECAUSE MR. HE QINGHUA IS AN HONEST MAN

and a friggin RARITY in this HORRIBLY DISHONEST industry....
Lets get a few things straight right now. You're the one only one who has been insulting and aggressive in this thread. Not to mention your baseless comments about ADTG and Walter being dishonest. Not to mention with how you word your "comments" on the previous page leaves little room for interpretation, other than that you were on your soap box talking down to everyone else.

Using specific words, and the underlying meaning behind what words you did say are all part of the english language so deal with it. If you want to argue about wording then fine, but the reality is you're preaching, and in some cases to some very educated people, which leaves little interpretation than to say you're insinuating they are ignorant. Then these are just how I read things, but I doubt other guys are reading them very differently, especially since you got the yellow card warning.

I'm not insulting you, and you're oddly defensive and draw conclusions about other people based on zero evidence. The fact that you think you can come up with some elaborate description about who I am and what the intentions of my comments were from a single post, that could be read multiple ways says a lot about you. Again, not an insult, but an observation.

I'm not here to learn from you, nor would I want to. You'd make a pretty poor teacher based on your style of speaking and interacting with others thus far. Your rhetoric needs some serious work if how you've spoken to a few other guys on this thread is how you think you should teach someone. Teaching is an art and a science that you seem to not have a grasp of. It is about much more than knowing the material.

I have not insulted you and any insult you perceive is your problem. My question was based upon comments made by CPP and ADTG.

Even if the thing measures better, which we as of now have no proof of, theres no guarantee that it will sound that much better than products currently available for much less money. It looks like an interesting product and I'm always game for seeing and learning about new electronics, but not when presented in the way you've presented the reference 10.2.

Finally I'd like to reiterate that your groundless baseless insult towards me, about giving my two cents and then insulting you and being whatever type of guy you've dealt with in the past is.....well.....dumb to say the least. I asked a question, I got an insult with no answer. Unless you've looked around lately this is a public forum where everyone, including you, is entitled to his two cents. This isn't a place for you to come on, and push your own agenda while insulting others who have not provoked you in the slightest. Having a different opinion is not trying to insult you, it's a differing of point of view.

Its sad that someone who seems to know at least something about what he's talking about has such underdeveloped communication skills, at least from what I've observed. Then again I don't know you, nor at this point to I care to, and cannot say conclusively what you'd be like in person.
 
Last edited:
S

Solid-State

Banned
The fact that you think you can come up with some elaborate description about who I am and what the intentions of my comments were from a single post, that could be read multiple ways says a lot about you. Again, not an insult, but an observation.
I have not insulted you and any insult
Finally I'd like to reiterate that your groundless baseless insult towards me
Are you for real! Elaborate description of you? You have not insulted me? I insulted you!?! I suggest you read what you and I posted!

I also suggest you reread what Walter said and did... total DISHONESTY trying to drum up sales online for Cinepro and using AcuDef etc to divert interested in AB amps directly. You two were pushing them towards Cinepro to PAY 50% MORE!

AND YOU KNEW IT'S THE SAME PRODUCT WALTER! (and probably AcuDef)

It's total waste of my time to engage this BS.

I seriously wonder how some people in this business live with themselves being such dishonest scammers and rip off artists.

I'm not saying this is the case for any of you nepotistic ______ guys thanking this MOST RUDE POST.

You guys are all in the same bed greasing the same wheel...

Obvious to anyone with HALF A BRAIN
 
Last edited:
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Hahahahaha well when you find someone with half a brain please let us know, we'd love to meet the person.

And lo and behold we agree on something this is definitely not worth it :D
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
I seriously wonder how some people in this business live with themselves being such dishonest scammers and rip off artists.

I'm not saying this is the case for any of you nepotistic ______ guys thanking this MOST RUDE POST.

You guys are all in the same bed greasing the same wheel...

I am almost certain, I gave away more equipment (for free to friends and AH members) that you will ever own in your lifetime. I try to help people get the best deals without making a profit. Money I don't need, I have. The only scammer here is you. We're all a little tired of your bull and MR. Noriyuki's what ever your pushing. You must be a kid, what are you about 16. You know what your problem is " You judge people based upon your own character" we are not like you. And you insult ADFG on his choices of equipment, he can buy and sell you all day long. His system is probably worth more then your whole net worth, if you have any at all. Good night??
 
Last edited:
S

Solid-State

Banned
I am almost certain, I gave away more equipment (for free to friends and AH members) that you will ever own in your lifetime. I try to help people get the best deals without making a profit. Money I don't need, I have. The only scammer here is you. We're all a little tired of your bull and MR. Noriyuki's what ever your pushing. You must be a kid, what are you about 16. You know what your problem is " You judge people based upon your own character" we are not like you.
Then explain why you played stupid about the Cinepro and AB 6500SE being the same product when you knew very well it was the SAME yet you didn't mention this to AcuDef when he suggestion the product shouldn't be trusted because of lack of "measurements" and that you should stick with Cinepro. You had more than ample opportunity to come clean yet you chose not to.

or is it COLLUSION (I don't think so I just think AcuDef couldn't tell the two units were the same)

hmmm....

You also were the one to post the orginal href to the avforum site with the thread regarding AB "custom to order" home theater amps. Why did you do this and in the initial post why no mention of it being the SAME as your beloved Cinepro...

hmmm....

I don't doubt your a nice guy and have given away product!

I also help people find the best deals... and you know what! I do it without any financial interest nor a single suggestion in my line card... and you know what! I DON'T HAVE A LINE CARD!

DO YOU!

I have been brunt in questioning people knowledge and I do admit a hint of crass cynicism BUT at no point did I result to personal insults such as you lot!

PS if I am 16 you lot should all be EMBARRASSED because it appears I have better knowledge than somebody in distro/channel/retail for this gear FOR MANY DECADES

hahaha
 
Last edited:
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
...total DISHONESTY trying to drum up sales online for Cinepro and using AcuDef etc to divert interested in AB amps directly. You two were pushing them towards Cinepro to PAY 50% MORE!

AND YOU KNEW IT'S THE SAME PRODUCT WALTER! (and probably AcuDef)

It's total waste of my time to engage this BS.

Obvious to anyone with HALF A BRAIN
First, are you actually calling professional people like us pharmacists & engineers "half a brain"?:D

And what degree and profession do you hold that puts you in the "full brain" category? :D

Second, both Walter & I agreed that he should stick with his great Cinepro amps.

Third, we really just don't care for this kind of talk, man. We are just a bunch of guys who work hard for a living (or retired :D), and we just want to casually shoot the breeze for fun. Nothing more. Just run. Let's keep it fun. Point of being on this forum. Fun.

We seem to disagree with you on the topic of using dedicated pre-amps vs AVR. Or something like that. Don't even know anymore. :D

FYI, for some years, I owned three Acurus Class-A analog preamps & 3 Acurus 200X3 amps. Been there done it. I also own the $7500 Denon AVP-A1HDCI and $5500 Denon AVR-5308CI. Been there done it.

So don't make fun of my $1500 AVR-990. It's not exactly cheap stuff, man. :D
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
Then explain why you played stupid about the Cinepro and AB 6500SE being the same product when you knew very well it was the SAME yet you didn't mention this to AcuDef when he suggestion the product shouldn't be trusted because of lack of "measurements" and that you should stick with Cinepro. You had more than ample opportunity to come clean yet you chose not to.

You also were the one to post the orginal href to the avforum site with the thread regarding AB "custom to order" home theater amps. Why did you do this and in the initial post why no mention of it being the SAME as your beloved Cinepro...

hmmm....

I don't doubt your a nice guy and have given away product!

I also help people find the best deals... and you know what! I do it without any financial interest nor a single suggestion in my line card... and you know what! I DON'T HAVE A LINE CARD!

DO YOU!

I have been brunt in questioning people knowledge and I do admit a hint of crass cynicism BUT at no point did I result to personal insults such as you lot!
Because I have class.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Buddy you can swap bloody opamps and hear a difference OK...
Funny, I've done it, thanks to the geniuses at Head-Fi, and I've voided warranties in the process...only to get NO difference!

How can all that be so yet your... uhh... CLUELESS!!!
:rolleyes:

So because he doesn't buy into B.S. he's clueless.

If you zoom in and look at the granularity regarding sonic performance and component quality/circuit design it's obvious to anyone with half a brain in EE design that there is a difference. Heck the friggin LAYOUT ALONE can have an impact!
THere's four kinds of differences

1) Theoretical differences that measure the same
2) Measurable differences that sound the same
3) Audible differences that barely sound subtly "different", but not particularily "better" or "worse" at the end of it all with biases controlled.
4) Audible differences that immediately, and obviously negatively affect perceived SQ.

Please stop wasting my time with 1,2, and as far as the scope of this thread is concerned, 3.

And I have to argue and debate your type whilst receiving multiple insults I smoke drugs, I'm this, I'm that... just like on AVS...
I saw your totally off-topic posts at AVS. People don't appreciate tangential discussion about irrelevant crap like DACs and DSP crossovers in speaker threads. Use the PM button, or start your own damn thread.

I've had it... I'm going back to my DIY EE circles where the people know what they are talking about and are not insulting to me...
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
Go ahead Solid-State, start with Grant, he'll tear you to pieces. Make you look like a schoolboy. My money is on Grant all day long. We listen to and respect Grant, not a pork jerky like you. BTW Cinepro has not been made by AB for many years, after Eric died it was over. Mike Powells (www.verastarr.com) tried to take over Cinepro, but did not succeed. Yes, Bob was the OEM for Verastarr also.
 
Last edited:
S

Solid-State

Banned
Huh so now you want people to
tear you to pieces
Nice guy!

I see I hit a nerve.

You still have yet to answer why you didn't mention the facts about the two amps being the same product and you lead AcuDef to state you'd be better off with Cinepro. At that point you could have come clean but you didn't. One can only wonder why.

Also you pointed me to a site/company you are, from my understanding, involved in that sells products, that I take from your comments here, you have no faith in nor believe in.

http://www.powermodules.com

The Benchmark DAC for example. Why do you or whom ever your involved with at PowerModules.com sell them if you believe the converters and pre-amp section of a box store Denon is the SAME.

Heck all the products are BS according to you guys! So why do you sell the stuff or have a history of selling it then!

Also AcuDef has yet to tell me where the converter is in the chain with his 990. Perhaps he doesn't understand what I'm talking about.

I have AVR-3310 access and I can pull the analog section out and compare the differences with the Kingwa piece if you guys like!

As for GranteedEV,
stop wasting my time
stop wasting your time? You just joined the conversation! Your points are valid and can't be argued.

BTW I take it you work in this field as well GranteedEV. Do you only sell box store AVRs IE do you work at Bestbuy?

Well you should because it's obvious like walter there you have no faith in the products you sell.

I wonder how your customers would feel if they knew that you guys think most of your product is BS that you just sold for 4 figures.
 
S

Solid-State

Banned
So Walter,

This piece is BS total rip off crap and all you need is a Denon 990 AVR right!

vt01_preamp



Or how about the Benchmark DAC? Again total BS ehh... heck all you need is an off the shelf Best Buy AVR-990 right! It has a converter, line stage and pre-amp section that's just as good as any of that stuff right!

AudioWaves - Benchmark Media Systems


So GranteedEV what can you tell me about the differences between the Reference 10.2 and AVR-990 in terms of converters, I/V and the quality of their respective single/balanced circuits/outputs.

Give me some time I'll get copies of the AVR-3310/990 schematic and service manual. I'll PM Kingwa about it as well. He does document most of his circuit design on the site but I'm sure he'll have no problem doing this.

I want you to teach me GranteedEV why they are the same and what differences they have in terms of circuit design.

You seriously figure an AK4358 connected to some consumer level operator amps with cheap electrolytics with bad ESR is as good as discrete class A powered FOUR PCM1704UKs connected to a discrete bin sorted WIMA with custom order NOVERs diamond differential circuit!?! So what Kingwa is an idiot wasting his time with this design then !?!

I await you wisdom...

PS so you feel these two articles and writers don't know what they are talking about!?! http://www.bext.com/replace.htm http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Linestages.html http://www.linkwitzlab.com/filters.htm
 
Last edited:
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Also AcuDef has yet to tell me where the converter is in the chain with his 990. Perhaps he doesn't understand what I'm talking about.
Are you asking where the DAC is?

It's inside the Denon 990. Hello?:D

Oh, and you never provided us with third party measurements of these preamps. I really like to see them. If you can prove that they measure better than the Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, Marantz AVRs, etc, then I might listen to you. I mean come on, man. Show us the proofs.
 
Last edited:
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
So Walter,

This piece is BS total rip off crap and all you need is a Denon 990 AVR right!

vt01_preamp



Or how about the Benchmark DAC? Again total BS ehh... heck all you need is an off the shelf Best Buy AVR-990 right! It has a converter, line stage and pre-amp section that's just as good as any of that stuff right!

AudioWaves - Benchmark Media Systems


So GranteedEV what can you tell me about the differences between the Reference 10.2 and AVR-990 in terms of converters, I/V and the quality of their respective single/balanced circuits/outputs.

Give me some time I'll get copies of the AVR-3310/990 schematic and service manual. I'll PM Kingwa about it as well. He does document most of his circuit design on the site but I'm sure he'll have no problem doing this.

I want you to teach me GranteedEV why they are the same and what differences they have in terms of circuit design.

I await you wisdom...

PS you seriously figure an AK4358 connected to some consumer level operator amps with cheap electrolytics is as good as discrete class A powered FOUR PCM1704UKs connected to a discrete bin sorted WIMA with custom order NOVERs diamond differential circuit!?! So what Kingwa is an idiot wasting his time with this design then !?!
Show us 3rd party measurements of these. Come on. I dare you. Show us they measure better than the Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer, Onkyo AVR!

What you believe in is 100% bull crap stuff that Audio Critic, Audioholics, and many smart people do not believe in because we know better.

I just don't think you belong on Audioholics or AVS because most of us just know too well than to believe this nonsense. You don't want GranteedEV, DS-21, AJinFLA, Dennis Murphy, and 99% of Audioholics to school you on this, man. You really don't. Just live and learn man. I used to think like you. Believe that. In used to be like you.

Live and learn.
 
Last edited:
S

Solid-State

Banned
The I/V conversion after DAC and line driver circuit affects the sonic performance of any AV gear more than just about anything IMHO.

I would love to hear your opinions GranteedEV on the various designs of line driver stages both discrete and opamp based and your opinion of each and it pertains to fidelity. Also the various PSU designs and classes to drive such a circuit and again how this again affects fidelity.

I'm open and willing to LEARN!
 
S

Solid-State

Banned
Show us 3rd party measurements of these. Come on. I dare you. Show us they measure better than the Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer, Onkyo AVR!

What you believe in is 100% bull crap stuff that Audio Critic, Audioholics, and many smart people do not believe in because we know better.

I just don't think you belong on Audioholics or AVS because most of us just know too well than to believe this nonsense. You don't want GranteedEV, DS-21, AJinFLA, Dennis Murphy, and 99% of Audioholics to school you on this, man. You really don't. Just live and learn man. I used to think like you. Believe that. In used to be like you.

Live and learn.
So I take it your not even willing to try something different like the Ref 10.2?

Again if you order a Reference 10.2, jack it into your Salon 2 speakers with ATI power, via dual differential proper end to end hookup (XLR) and playback your best FLAC online purchased 24bit 96Khz music and it doesn't sound better than your current AVR-990 and transport then I WILL RUN DOWN THE ROAD NUDE WITH AN AUDIOHOLICS LOGO PAINTED ON MY CHEST and I'll document the entire thing for all of you!

For that to work though you're going to have to be totally honest! I trust you in this regard despite this thread et al.

Why did you buy a balanced amp if your only feeding it a singled ended connection? Why not just buy the cheaper non balanced amp then.

Also I still don't know where in the chain your converter is with the system. What is your transport and is it fed into the AVRs via analog or digital connection?

What is your transport/converter!!!!!

If you don't understand what I'm asking then please ask me to explain it!

And sure I'm willing to have all the other names you dropped come in here and help me LEARN! I'm open to LEARNING!

ARE YOU!?!

You keep talking measurements... there are many ways to measure electronics and acoustics... to what metrology are you referring to?


Electrical/Analog

Fs?

THD?

RMS?

IMD?

Crosstalk?

Noise?

Dynamic range and SNR?

CMRR if balanced/dual differential?

transient response IE slew rate and rise time?

output impedance and dampening factor?

DIGITAL


Jitter?

Sample rate?

Bit Depth?

Sample accuracy/synchronization IE clock recovery?

Differential non-linearity?

Integral non-linearity?

PS BTW THD is totally USELESS for higher order harmonics and crossover distortion at a given THD is more audible than clip at same THD!
 
Last edited:
S

Solid-State

Banned
Are you asking where the DAC is?

It's inside the Denon 990. Hello?:D

Oh, and you never provided us with third party measurements of these preamps. I really like to see them. If you can prove that they measure better than the Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, Marantz AVRs, etc, then I might listen to you. I mean come on, man. Show us the proofs.
So you feed the Denon a digital signal then. From what kind of source?

HELLO, McFly! you could have been using an analog input as far as I know! Perhaps your transport has better converter ehh!

I wouldn't doubt you have something like the Oppo BDP-95 with the special fancy Sabre converter and line driver circuits, paid extra for money for it, and are using HDMI or SP/DIF!

haha

OR

Heck why not use a Walmart "candle" JiL like brand/quality player right... it's digital coming outta it into the Denon anyway!

haha

And HEY!

Sorry for calling you clueless. That's not right.

You appear misinformed and have vast oversimplifications.
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top