Ascend Acoustic Ribbon Towers

[Pogre]

So, to sum up the docks posted and this summary (ha) basically the -0 (reference) level applies LESS DEQ than the other levels that are lower values? Am I getting that right?

You mean -0 (reference) level as in volume level, yes. The closer you get to reference the less DEQ is applied.

 

[lovinthehd]

So, to sum up the docks posted and this summary (ha) basically the -0 (reference) level applies LESS DEQ than the other levels that are lower values? Am I getting that right?

Yes, that's one way to think of RLO settings, so it doesn't over accentuate what is already over accentuated from dynamic range compression. As Audyssey says:

0 dB (Film Ref): This is the default setting and should be used when listening to movies.


15 dB: Select this setting for pop/rock music or other program material that is mixed at very high listening levels and has a compressed dynamic range.


10 dB: Select this setting for jazz or other music that has a wider dynamic range. This setting should also be selected for TV content as that is usually mixed at 10 dB below film reference.


5 dB: Select this setting for content that has a very wide dynamic range, such as classical music

 

[NINaudio]

So, to sum up the docks posted and this summary (ha) basically the -0 (reference) level applies LESS DEQ than the other levels that are lower values? Am I getting that right?

Pogre is right if you're at reference level for your avr's volume then less DEQ is applied.

However, for the settings themselves 0 dB will apply the most DEQ and -15 will apply the least when listening below reference levels.

 

[Pogre]

Yes, that's one way to think of RLO settings, so it doesn't over accentuate what is already over accentuated from dynamic range compression. As Audyssey says:

0 dB (Film Ref): This is the default setting and should be used when listening to movies.


15 dB: Select this setting for pop/rock music or other program material that is mixed at very high listening levels and has a compressed dynamic range.


10 dB: Select this setting for jazz or other music that has a wider dynamic range. This setting should also be selected for TV content as that is usually mixed at 10 dB below film reference.


5 dB: Select this setting for content that has a very wide dynamic range, such as classical music

I've played with DEQ so much that I feel a special connection with it, lol.

I look at DEQ as Audyssey's house curve. RLO 0 has the strongest effect and RLO -15 has the lightest effect. No matter the RLO, less DEQ is applied as you raise the volume level. So it's more pronounced at lower volumes and less so as you crank it up. I think once you hit reference level (0 dB reference scale) DEQ is basically nonexistent.

 

[NINaudio]

I've played with DEQ so much that I feel a special connection with it, lol.

I look at DEQ as Audyssey's house curve. RLO 0 has the strongest effect and RLO -15 has the lightest effect. No matter the RLO, less DEQ is applied as you raise the volume level. So it's more pronounced at lower volumes and less so as you crank it up. I think once you hit reference level (0 dB reference scale) DEQ is basically nonexistent.

For me:

Wife home: DEQ at -15

Wife not home: DEQ at 0

 

[lovinthehd]

I've played with DEQ so much that I feel a special connection with it, lol.

I look at DEQ as Audyssey's house curve. RLO 0 has the strongest effect and RLO -15 has the lightest effect. No matter the RLO, less DEQ is applied as you raise the volume level. So it's more pronounced at lower volumes and less so as you crank it up. I think once you hit reference level (0 dB reference scale) DEQ is basically nonexistent.

Yep, and if you then start going over reference level it (DEQ) actually acts in reverse....altho I've not really tried that, too loud for me these days....

 

[lovinthehd]

For me:

Wife home: DEQ at -15

Wife not home: DEQ at 0

You mean RLO settting, right ?

ps Never mind....that can work either way

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

So, to sum up the docks posted and this summary (ha) basically the -0 (reference) level applies LESS DEQ than the other levels that are lower values? Am I getting that right?

Yes that’s basically right. As you raise the MV to -0 Deq does less and less. Once you hit -0MV it does nothing. And actually I’d you go above -0, it starts to decrease the boost.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

For me:

Wife home: DEQ at -15

Wife not home: DEQ at 0

Haha! For me:
Wife home: Deq off.
Wife not home. Deq off.

 

[panteragstk]

Ah, got it now. I figured that was how it worked. I usually listen in the theater at -12 (in there, with that many speakers is...LOUD) so I'm getting a decent amount of DEQ. I think my level is set to reference, but I should play around with the other levels and see what happens. Interesting.

 

[Pogre]

FOUND IT!

I knew I had one labeled somewhere!

For the record that's an older set of sweeps. What I have now is significantly better. When I generated some filters for that one I had forgotten to check the box for "MINIDSP 2x4 HD" so what I got was a generic weaksauce file. One of those easy things to overlook when playing with this stuff.

 

[panteragstk]

FOUND IT!

View attachment 36993

I knew I had one labeled somewhere!

For the record that's an older set of sweeps. What I have now is significantly better. When I generated some filters for that one I had forgotten to check the box for "MINIDSP 2x4 HD" so what I got was a generic weaksauce file. One of those easy things to overlook when playing with this stuff.

Damn weaksauce messes things up every time.

I'm guessing all of those were at the same volume level?

 

[Pogre]

Damn weaksauce messes things up every time.

I'm guessing all of those were at the same volume level?

Yup. Volume was -20... I think. That's where I usually do my sweeping.

 

[Mpsafranski]

Any new revelations, @Pogre? Saw on the upgraditis thread you’re already set on selling the ultras, that’s a good sign you’re liking what you’re hearing. Any fatigue issues still happening?

 

[KEW]

I‘m not sure that one RL setting sounds better to me than another for music. Still experimenting. Thanks.

One thing to consider (if you are not already) is to evaluate this at several volume levels.
I would think it might be a good bit harder to decide what you like best if you are only evaluating at -15 (for example). If you pretty much only listen at -15 then ignore me, but I think many of us have a "rock out" level, background level, and quiet hours level, or similar. If so, see how it sounds at all of those levels. I'm inclined to believe if you tune it for your quietest level the other two levels will be reasonable, because the quietest level is where the effect will be most dramatic.

 

[Pogre]

Okay, this conversation is from another thread and instead of hijacking it I moved it over here.

Are ribbon tweeters not the best for high SPL? I just thought of that off the top of my head.

The ones in the Sierra towers have much better power handling than the smaller tweets in the books. I've been getting a little nervous about the excursion I've been seeing from the drivers so I posted up a thread on the Ascend forums. They don't like the term "reference" over there and think it just confuses things. I made a video showing the excursion I was concerned about and Dave seems to think I'm getting a lot more than 85 dB at my seat at reference ("0" on the dial) and might be pushing into clipping territory.

Here are the videos I made. My phone mic made the audio pretty ugly so you might wanna turn it down a little bit.

Dave told me that type of excursion is pretty normal for high volumes like that, provided it's unclipped and clean power. He suspects based on the movement that I'm significantly higher than 85 - 90 dB at my seat tho, as I've been assuming. This is why they don't like "reference" over there because it rarely means 85 dB at MLP with music.

 

[snakeeyes]

Okay, this conversation is from another thread and instead of hijacking it I moved it over here.


The ones in the Sierra towers have much better power handling than the smaller tweets in the books. I've been getting a little nervous about the excursion I've been seeing from the drivers so I posted up a thread on the Ascend forums. They don't like the term "reference" over there and think it just confuses things. I made a video showing the excursion I was concerned about and Dave seems to think I'm getting a lot more than 85 dB at my seat at reference ("0" on the dial) and might be pushing into clipping territory.

Here are the videos I made. My phone mic made the audio pretty ugly so you might wanna turn it down a little bit.

Dave told me that type of excursion is pretty normal for high volumes like that, provided it's unclipped and clean power. He suspects based on the movement that I'm significantly higher than 85 - 90 dB at my seat tho, as I've been assuming. This is why they don't like "reference" over there because it rarely means 85 dB at MLP with music.

If it doesn’t sound distorted, maybe it’s fine? Definitely if you aren’t satisfied with the speakers, return them though.

 

[Pogre]

If it doesn’t sound distorted, maybe it’s fine? Definitely if you aren’t satisfied with the speakers, return them though.

I'm not dissatisfied and no, I don't hear any distortion. I was only nervous about what looked like extreme excursion to me. Dave assured me that when those drivers bottom out it's a pretty good bang and there's no question when it happens. These towers are more sensitive than the Ultras tho, so if I'm getting into clipping territory with them then I was definitely there with the Ultras as well. I just never worried with the Ultras. Bigger drivers and more of them means much, much less excursion and that's what I was used to. I never had a visual reason for alarm before,

 

[Pogre]

If you listen at 90 dB peak maximum then no the calculator would show no clipping. In that case, I have no idea why the Ascend guy would tell you that it would, and if he did, he's wrong.

I will check the preamp side, he may be right for the wrong reason, that its not the power amp but the preamp that could be clipping at that level. Still don't think so but will check..

Here's the thing tho, I've never measured spl at max volume at my seat. I always just assumed since I'm calibrated that I'm hitting ~90 dB peaks with music. Next time I bust out the equipment I'm gonna do just that and see what my levels actually are in relation to the number on the volume dial. Dave thinks I'm hitting over 100 dB at my seat right now.

 

[John Galt]

I'm not dissatisfied and no, I don't hear any distortion. I was only nervous about what looked like extreme excursion to me. Dave assured me that when those drivers bottom out it's a pretty good bang and there's no question when it happens. These towers are more sensitive than the Ultras tho, so if I'm getting into clipping territory with them then I was definitely there with the Ultras as well. I just never worried with the Ultras. Bigger drivers and more of them means much, much less excursion and that's what I was used to. I never had a visual reason for alarm before,

Have you considered that your pre-outs may be approaching the clipping level when pushed really hard? With the differences seen between the pre-outs on my Denon 3500 vs the 3600 with the internal amp disconnect trick I think it's possible. I can detect a little distortion creeping in at high levels and this may or may not be due to the preamps being pushed into distortion above 1.5 volts since I can't completely disable the onboard amps on the 3500.

The new Denon X700 series just released all have the ability to completely disable all onboard amps, which should eliminate the onboard amps causing distortion when they start to clip (even if none are plugged into a speaker) and feed back that distortion to the pre-outs when pushed really hard.

Discussed here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x3600h-av-receiver-review.12676/

And here: https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/denon-new-av-receivers-have-4-features-nobody-else-has.118371/