Another low for our good friend Tucker Carlson

M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
"Occasionally he stumbled over the truth but he always picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened." (Winston Churchill)

I suspect this is what would happen if Tucker were to stumble into truth at some point, but we will probably never know.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Intere

Interesting interview on CNN. Would have to see the full Fox interview to see the full conversation unless there's a paywall.

Facial ticks aside, won't fault Tucker here, the questions are what many in Europe are wondering. The German government actions in not supporting the current US war drums seem to be in line. Also, response from other NATO allies has been tepid at best. Netherlands sending two F 35s, Denmark 4 F 16s and a frigate. France ??

No questions on Western involvement in 2014 coup in the Ukraine of a democratically elected government then?

We might be putting our troops in harm's way to get involved a Eurasian land war between two countries that are extremely unevenly matched and without the material support of the largest European economic power. It's an extremely stupid move on our part. The media and should be asking questions. Would love to know what the debate is inside the Pentagon on the wisdom of this.

I have to give CNN credit that they did not edit Gretchin's response to Acosta's pearl clutching question regarding the appropriateness of media figures advising Presidents. The look on his face after she said " the other side does it as well" is classic.
Just read this thread from start to finish for the first time. I just want to touch on the Russia/Ukraine issue.

You call the events of 2014 a "coup", while it is conventionally labelled a revolution. Regardless, what Western involvement are you referring to?

I'm really confused about talk of NATO going to war with Russia . There has been no suggestion of taking such action from any NATO government and I see/hear no "US war drums".

The "tepid" response of European allies in sending what would appear to be paltry forces - which are going to eastern NATO ally countries, not Ukraine - are not intended to signal aggressive stance towards Russia. They are meant to send the message that any interference in those countries could trigger direct confrontation with western NATO countries, not an intention to counterattack Russia.

U.S. to send 3,000 troops to Eastern Europe, Pentagon says they won't fight in Ukraine | CBC News

Biden has said he will not put American troops in Ukraine to fight any Russian incursion, although the United States is supplying Ukraine with weapons to defend itself.

Pentagon spokesperson John Kirby said the deployments would take place in the coming days and stressed they weren't "permanent moves."

"These forces are not going to fight in Ukraine," said Kirby, reaffirming the American commitment to the defence of the alliance laid out in Article 5 of the NATO treaty. "They are going to ensure the robust defence of our NATO allies."
An additional invasion of Ukraine (remember Crimea?) would likely trigger significant economic sanctions against Russia, not military action. Germany seems quite reticent to respond strongly to Russian moves, but that would be because of the bind they've put themselves in by being so dependent on Russian natural gas supplies.

Carlson seems to think it would be logical that support should go to Russia, since it is the stronger country. He's certainly mystified by support for Ukraine. But then, arguing a standpoint based on logic wouldn't be his strong suit.
 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Just read this thread from start to finish for the first time. I just want to touch on the Russia/Ukraine issue.

You call the events of 2014 a "coup", while it is conventionally labelled a revolution. Regardless, what Western involvement are you referring to?

I'm really confused about talk of NATO going to war with Russia . There has been no suggestion of taking such action from any NATO government and I see/hear no "US war drums".

The "tepid" response of European allies in sending what would appear to be paltry forces - which are going to eastern NATO ally countries, not Ukraine - are not intended to signal aggressive stance towards Russia. They are meant to send the message that any interference in those countries could trigger direct confrontation with western NATO countries, not an intention to counterattack Russia.

U.S. to send 3,000 troops to Eastern Europe, Pentagon says they won't fight in Ukraine | CBC News



An additional invasion of Ukraine (remember Crimea?) would likely trigger significant economic sanctions against Russia, not military action. Germany seems quite reticent to respond strongly to Russian moves, but that would be because of the bind they've put themselves in by being so dependent on Russian natural gas supplies.

Carlson seems to think it would be logical that support should go to Russia, since it is the stronger country. He's certainly mystified by support for Ukraine. But then, arguing a standpoint based on logic wouldn't be his strong suit.
That's the way I understood it. Weren't they sending troops to eastern Europe to avoid spillover? The US is sending arms to Ukraine. Tucker's intentionally deflecting when he said, Who cares if Ukraine is a democracy!
 
SithZedi

SithZedi

Audioholic General
Just read this thread from start to finish for the first time. I just want to touch on the Russia/Ukraine issue.

You call the events of 2014 a "coup", while it is conventionally labelled a revolution. Regardless, what Western involvement are you referring to?

I'm really confused about talk of NATO going to war with Russia . There has been no suggestion of taking such action from any NATO government and I see/hear no "US war drums".

The "tepid" response of European allies in sending what would appear to be paltry forces - which are going to eastern NATO ally countries, not Ukraine - are not intended to signal aggressive stance towards Russia. They are meant to send the message that any interference in those countries could trigger direct confrontation with western NATO countries, not an intention to counterattack Russia.

U.S. to send 3,000 troops to Eastern Europe, Pentagon says they won't fight in Ukraine | CBC News



An additional invasion of Ukraine (remember Crimea?) would likely trigger significant economic sanctions against Russia, not military action. Germany seems quite reticent to respond strongly to Russian moves, but that would be because of the bind they've put themselves in by being so dependent on Russian natural gas supplies.

Carlson seems to think it would be logical that support should go to Russia, since it is the stronger country. He's certainly mystified by support for Ukraine. But then, arguing a standpoint based on logic wouldn't be his strong suit.
Welcome to the conversation. I do not agree we should support Russia in this case, but we should find a diplomatic way to solve the issue without letting tensions potentially get out of hand. I fear stupidity, especially when nuclear powers are butting heads. Maybe I was not clearer in my earlier posts, perhaps the below will shed some light.

Coup or revolution? Since the fall of the wall and liberation of Eastern Europe, there are two large factions in the Ukraine, one looking west, one looking east. One side says coup, the other side says revolution. I used Coup.
Definition: "a sudden and decisive action in politics, especially one resulting in a change of government illegally or by force." It fits but if you want to use revolution, I'm good with it.

Western involvement: Especially after the Orange Revolution of 2004, millions/billions assets were up for grabs in the Ukraine. Western money flowed in and out of the country, legal and lots of dark money, with a large bet that the country would go and remain pro West. With that kind of money at stake, the lobbying money in DC was all over the place. They had a huge motive in keeping the Ukraine firmly in the West. God love the Ukrainians, I count some amoung my friends, but it is a highly corrupt country to do business in. If you have ever done business in that kind of environment, you would soon discover that to do anything there you have to pay $$$. Am sure some of that money made it into the Ukrainian Western faction. Let's not forget we also had high level politicians flying in there to support that side pre Feb 2014

I use term War Drums is as a term "to rally the troops to the potential area of conflict". The Europeans don't want this to get out of hand Even the Ukrainian President, Zelensky, wants us to tone it down. Meanwhile the US is forward deploying weapons and troops into an area under threat of invasion by 100,000 Russian troops armed to the teeth with Russia's latest weapons. We have 8,500 troops on high alert, including elements of 101st, 82nd, and 18th Airborne on ready to deploy.

If we are going to play chicken/war drums/ sabre rattle and Russia does move in. Then what? Sanctions will skyrocket energy prices in Europe and cripple their economies. How does that effect China's calculus iro Taiwan. Yes, Russia moved into Crimea. What did we do about it then? They are still there and can project their naval power further.

Anyway, long winded again but I hope you are right ultimately.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Welcome to the conversation. I do not agree we should support Russia in this case, but we should find a diplomatic way to solve the issue without letting tensions potentially get out of hand. I fear stupidity, especially when nuclear powers are butting heads. Maybe I was not clearer in my earlier posts, perhaps the below will shed some light.

Coup or revolution? Since the fall of the wall and liberation of Eastern Europe, there are two large factions in the Ukraine, one looking west, one looking east. One side says coup, the other side says revolution. I used Coup.
Definition: "a sudden and decisive action in politics, especially one resulting in a change of government illegally or by force." It fits but if you want to use revolution, I'm good with it.

Western involvement: Especially after the Orange Revolution of 2004, millions/billions assets were up for grabs in the Ukraine. Western money flowed in and out of the country, legal and lots of dark money, with a large bet that the country would go and remain pro West. With that kind of money at stake, the lobbying money in DC was all over the place. They had a huge motive in keeping the Ukraine firmly in the West. God love the Ukrainians, I count some amoung my friends, but it is a highly corrupt country to do business in. If you have ever done business in that kind of environment, you would soon discover that to do anything there you have to pay $$$. Am sure some of that money made it into the Ukrainian Western faction. Let's not forget we also had high level politicians flying in there to support that side pre Feb 2014

I use term War Drums is as a term "to rally the troops to the potential area of conflict". The Europeans don't want this to get out of hand Even the Ukrainian President, Zelensky, wants us to tone it down. Meanwhile the US is forward deploying weapons and troops into an area under threat of invasion by 100,000 Russian troops armed to the teeth with Russia's latest weapons. We have 8,500 troops on high alert, including elements of 101st, 82nd, and 18th Airborne on ready to deploy.

If we are going to play chicken/war drums/ sabre rattle and Russia does move in. Then what? Sanctions will skyrocket energy prices in Europe and cripple their economies. How does that effect China's calculus iro Taiwan. Yes, Russia moved into Crimea. What did we do about it then? They are still there and can project their naval power further.

Anyway, long winded again but I hope you are right ultimately.
Definition: "a sudden and decisive action in politics, especially one resulting in a change of government illegally or by force." It fits but if you want to use revolution, I'm good with it.
Oh, just like the American revolution. ;)


No question that Ukraine is corrupt, although it appears they are trying to improve their level of democracy and rule of law. It would be no different - well, maybe worse - if they had remained in the Russian sphere of influence.

If Russia invades, I believe there will be no choice but to implement sanctions. No response will only encourage Putin to meddle further with other eastern European countries. It will certainly be painful, but mostly for the Russians, as their economy is practically a one-trick pony, depending on oil and gas exports. Perhaps we can be creative and start with freezing all those oligarchs' assets in the west - including the properties bought from Trump.

I could be wrong, but I simply cannot see NATO going into a shooting war with Russia over Ukraine. The risks and consequences of escalation are just too great.

The real saber-rattling is coming from Russia. They don't want Ukraine to join NATO, so threaten to invade, which only makes Ukraine want to join even more. There's no logic to it. The ball is in Putin's court.

Putin Knows What Happens Next in Ukraine - The Atlantic
 
SithZedi

SithZedi

Audioholic General
Oh, just like the American revolution. ;)


No question that Ukraine is corrupt, although it appears they are trying to improve their level of democracy and rule of law. It would be no different - well, maybe worse - if they had remained in the Russian sphere of influence.

If Russia invades, I believe there will be no choice but to implement sanctions. No response will only encourage Putin to meddle further with other eastern European countries. It will certainly be painful, but mostly for the Russians, as their economy is practically a one-trick pony, depending on oil and gas exports. Perhaps we can be creative and start with freezing all those oligarchs' assets in the west - including the properties bought from Trump.

I could be wrong, but I simply cannot see NATO going into a shooting war with Russia over Ukraine. The risks and consequences of escalation are just too great.

The real saber-rattling is coming from Russia. They don't want Ukraine to join NATO, so threaten to invade, which only makes Ukraine want to join even more. There's no logic to it. The ball is in Putin's court.

Putin Knows What Happens Next in Ukraine - The Atlantic
You could certainly bring the American Revolution into it. That was a 50/50 split, with many of the Tories leaving in 1783 and going to Canada, at least from NY and the New England states :) .

I would hope the Ukrainians could sort it out but the prospects are dim given their internal divisions and corruption. So this problem will keep coming up again unless the country splits.

Of course Putin will meddle where ever he can if he thinks it will further long term interests. He's ruthless and extremely intelligent and he's playing the long game(chess). He will be able to take the pain because they have the natural resources. The Russian people will feel the pain and will be able to do nothing about it because it's a totalitarian state. You might also be underestimating the economic consequences of Europe's energy supply being cut off even in the short term. Remember Germany has been shutting down it's Nuclear reactors. I don't like the ball being in his court, that's to his advantage and makes us reactive. We should have a more proactive strategy where we would have the advantage. Its bad business sense.

I pray NATO does not go into a shooting war so I hope you are right. Another reason I don't want that war to start is NATO does not have the ability to fight a conventional war if the Russians decide to go further without threatening Nukes. That's one of the reasons Reagan put Pershings into West Germany in the 1980s.

Yes, the real saber rattling is coming from Russia but when you have mobilized your forces to the degree the Russians have, the odds a mistake can happen multiple considerably.. The stupid thing is we're rising to the bait with our saber rattling too. To pick one network, just google. CNN Ukraine Russia and look at the headlines and decide for yourself if we are getting a bit hysterical than is necessary. It also does not help when the Ukrainian government is telling our government to tone it down and we send mixed messages that Psaki has to correct.

Trump's gone. As much as I expected to see more proof, I have not seen enough of substantial Russian investments besides Russians buying 100m of real estate in the US. His efforts actually in Russia all look like business failures. I think Bill Clinton made more money in Russia with speaking fees.

If you want to really look at U.S. officials corruption in the region, there is plenty of smoke and material to work with. Although the Uranium One deal mentioned below was investigated by the DOJ and Sessions declined to appoint a Special Prosecutor. So I withhold judgment unless further evidence emerges. What cannot be debated is that it was irresponsible to sell part of the US's uranium supply to the Russians.
As for the Hunter Biden deals, well that's still being investigated so we'll see what comes from that..

 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Oh, just like the American revolution. ;)


No question that Ukraine is corrupt, although it appears they are trying to improve their level of democracy and rule of law. It would be no different - well, maybe worse - if they had remained in the Russian sphere of influence.

If Russia invades, I believe there will be no choice but to implement sanctions. No response will only encourage Putin to meddle further with other eastern European countries. It will certainly be painful, but mostly for the Russians, as their economy is practically a one-trick pony, depending on oil and gas exports. Perhaps we can be creative and start with freezing all those oligarchs' assets in the west - including the properties bought from Trump.

I could be wrong, but I simply cannot see NATO going into a shooting war with Russia over Ukraine. The risks and consequences of escalation are just too great.

The real saber-rattling is coming from Russia. They don't want Ukraine to join NATO, so threaten to invade, which only makes Ukraine want to join even more. There's no logic to it. The ball is in Putin's court.

Putin Knows What Happens Next in Ukraine - The Atlantic
NATO is a "defensive" pact meant for the little countries against being gobbled up by Russia. The way I understand it.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
You could certainly bring the American Revolution into it. That was a 50/50 split, with many of the Tories leaving in 1783 and going to Canada, at least from NY and the New England states :) .

I would hope the Ukrainians could sort it out but the prospects are dim given their internal divisions and corruption. So this problem will keep coming up again unless the country splits.

Of course Putin will meddle where ever he can if he thinks it will further long term interests. He's ruthless and extremely intelligent and he's playing the long game(chess). He will be able to take the pain because they have the natural resources. The Russian people will feel the pain and will be able to do nothing about it because it's a totalitarian state. You might also be underestimating the economic consequences of Europe's energy supply being cut off even in the short term. Remember Germany has been shutting down it's Nuclear reactors. I don't like the ball being in his court, that's to his advantage and makes us reactive. We should have a more proactive strategy where we would have the advantage. Its bad business sense.

I pray NATO does not go into a shooting war so I hope you are right. Another reason I don't want that war to start is NATO does not have the ability to fight a conventional war if the Russians decide to go further without threatening Nukes. That's one of the reasons Reagan put Pershings into West Germany in the 1980s.

Yes, the real saber rattling is coming from Russia but when you have mobilized your forces to the degree the Russians have, the odds a mistake can happen multiple considerably.. The stupid thing is we're rising to the bait with our saber rattling too. To pick one network, just google. CNN Ukraine Russia and look at the headlines and decide for yourself if we are getting a bit hysterical than is necessary. It also does not help when the Ukrainian government is telling our government to tone it down and we send mixed messages that Psaki has to correct.

Trump's gone. As much as I expected to see more proof, I have not seen enough of substantial Russian investments besides Russians buying 100m of real estate in the US. His efforts actually in Russia all look like business failures. I think Bill Clinton made more money in Russia with speaking fees.

If you want to really look at U.S. officials corruption in the region, there is plenty of smoke and material to work with. Although the Uranium One deal mentioned below was investigated by the DOJ and Sessions declined to appoint a Special Prosecutor. So I withhold judgment unless further evidence emerges. What cannot be debated is that it was irresponsible to sell part of the US's uranium supply to the Russians.
As for the Hunter Biden deals, well that's still being investigated so we'll see what comes from that..

I don't underestimate the economic consequences to western Europe. But, do we just roll over and allow Russia to do what they want? While Crimea may be today's Sudetenland, the rest of Ukraine would be Czechoslovakia.

If it came down to sanctions, it would be up to the US and Canada to do our utmost to make up the shortfall in natural gas, due to lack of tanker capacity.

Notwithstanding the reinforcements to US forces in Europe, I think the saber-rattling you refer to resides mainly in the headlines of US news media. When I look at news coverage from the US, I find it far more sensationalistic than Canadian or British media outlets. That's not necessarily a criticism - "it's a feature, not a bug", as they say - just an observation.

Putin may be playing the long game and it would be easier for him, because he doesn't care as much about domestic opinion and it's less costly to keep thousands of conscripts out in the boonies than for NATO to reinforce their own troops.

Russians are unsure what will happen in Ukraine — but most agree it's Putin's call to make | CBC News
 
Last edited:
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
I don't underestimate the economic consequences to western Europe. But, do we just roll over and allow Russia to do what they want? While Crimea may be today's Sudetenland, the rest of Ukraine would be Czechoslovakia.

If it came down to sanctions, it would be up to the US and Canada to do our utmost to make up the shortfall in natural gas, due to lack of tanker capacity.

Notwithstanding the reinforcements to US forces in Europe, I think the saber-rattling you refer to resides mainly in the headlines of US news media. When I look at news coverage from the US, I find it far more sensationalistic than Canadian or British media outlets. That's not necessarily a criticism - "it's a feature, not a bug", as they say - just an observation.

Putin may be playing the long game and it would be easier for him, because he doesn't care as much about domestic opinion and it's less costly to keep thousands of conscripts out in the boonies than for NATO to reinforce their own troops.
Putins goal is to destabilize and weaken the West, as well as driving wedges between western countries. So over here there is some writing that Putin is bluffing with the threat of invasion.

Thankfully Trump is no longer in office.
 
John Parks

John Parks

Audioholic Samurai
Covering two threads (Carlson & Rogan) in one swell foop.
Favorite quote: "Who is for censorship? Weak people." Kinda explains why I was banned from the 'vid thread...
 
SithZedi

SithZedi

Audioholic General
Putins goal is to destabilize and weaken the West, as well as driving wedges between western countries. So over here there is some writing that Putin is bluffing with the threat of invasion.

Thankfully Trump is no longer in office.
I don't want Russia to do what it wants and Putin does wants to destabilize the West. The questions the West should be ask ourselves is why? And why do we keep helping him destabilize.
For example:
What was the European strategy behind giving control of their future energy needs to Putin? The Europeans gave him tremendous leverage over us. There is no way the US or Canada can get enough ships to get LFNG to them.

I don't think it was just the US media fanning the flames. Why did the President of the Ukraine speak directly to Biden about toning it down?

Let's make a deal to defuse this situation:
Go back and reopen the Minsk 2 agreement from 2015 that dealt with the important issue of Donbas. The Ukraine has never followed up it. France, Germany, & the US seem to have lost interest. Then the Ukraine would have a better chance of remaining geographically intact.

Stop the expansion of NATO. To Russia, this is a major provocation. Even the NY Times recognizes this. Pres Bush and SoS James Baker led Gorbachev to believe this in 1990. Bill Clinton recognized this in the 1990s.

Then once a deal is done, scale back NATO or eliminate it. Trump was the wrong messenger but was right on the issue. The Cold War was over in the early 1990s, let's save some taxpayers money and probably blow it elsewhere.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
I don't want Russia to do what it wants and Putin does wants to destabilize the West. The questions the West should be ask ourselves is why? And why do we keep helping him destabilize.
For example:
What was the European strategy behind giving control of their future energy needs to Putin? The Europeans gave him tremendous leverage over us. There is no way the US or Canada can get enough ships to get LFNG to them.

I don't think it was just the US media fanning the flames. Why did the President of the Ukraine speak directly to Biden about toning it down?

Let's make a deal to defuse this situation:
Go back and reopen the Minsk 2 agreement from 2015 that dealt with the important issue of Donbas. The Ukraine has never followed up it. France, Germany, & the US seem to have lost interest. Then the Ukraine would have a better chance of remaining geographically intact.

Stop the expansion of NATO. To Russia, this is a major provocation. Even the NY Times recognizes this. Pres Bush and SoS James Baker led Gorbachev to believe this in 1990. Bill Clinton recognized this in the 1990s.

Then once a deal is done, scale back NATO or eliminate it. Trump was the wrong messenger but was right on the issue. The Cold War was over in the early 1990s, let's save some taxpayers money and probably blow it elsewhere.
Russian propaganda and talking points, and that seems to be a red thread in many of your posts on this subject.
 
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