Amp question

[eljr]

Before changing speakers (no matter which speakers he has, except for Bose ), it might be worth exploring his setup (AVR, Subwoofer, etc.).

After attempting to resolve this issue with his setup and the sound is still "THIN", then I think it's time to look at other speakers.

a sub will not change the sound of the speakers

come on, help this guy, don't further confuse him

 

[mazersteven]

As appealing as the $70k McIntosh amps might be, I can't go down that road until I finish paying off the $5k I spent on Transparent speaker cables and cable risers, and then I have my eye on a $2k power conditioner from Monster. Should only take me about 36 more months....

Wiseguy

 

[PENG]

Thin is a lack of bass. But ...

The OP already has an Hsu subwoofer.

A speaker sounding thin and a sub being missing aren't the same. You can add a sub to a thin speaker and still have a thin sounding speaker. Besides, I don't see the ST's as sounding thin. If anything they're good on low end output considering the size of the drivers involved.

I have a pair of 'bright' DIY speakers and I don't see how a below 60 Hz hump would alleviate that. I think sorting out the speaker issue before adding the sub has merit.

I missed that he has a good size HSU subwoofer. In that case he should play with the EQ and try setting XO to 90, or even 100 Hz. By relieving the duties of both the T758 and the two 5 " drivers of the Song tower, the upper mid bass may improve. Again, playing with Dirac Live to customize the curve may be the best option in this case.

 

[PENG]

a sub will not change the sound of the speakers

come on, help this guy, don't further confuse him

He has 3 systems and compared to the other speakers he has in the other two, I don't think the Song Towers would sound thin, or thinner. So I think there is something he can try first before replacing speakers, such as play with Dirac, try different positioning, crossover settings etc. The thread is gaining length fast, I am not sure if he complained about being thin in direct/pure direct mode with Dirac off.

 

[snakeeyes]

Try 120 hz even. Let that sub do some of the work!

 

[mazersteven]

His description of the high-end being elevated doesn't sound characteristic of that tweeter.

Hmmmmmmmm?

 

[tmurnin]

Here’s some pics of the room from multiple angles. The three posters at the back of the room ( the Los Angeles, Miami and Hawaii ones) are actually acoustic panels from ATS Acoustics. I know it isn't much in terms of softening, but trying what I can....

 

[mazersteven]

Nice room dude!!! Can you pull speakers away from the wall a foot maybe pull them out to the left and right another foot and then possibly toe them in slightly and see would that sounds like

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Totally in love with that wallpaper!!! But two listen chairs off axis is giving me fits...AudiOCD is hard to deal with lol.

 

[ski2xblack]

I obv didn't do a great job in describing what I mean by "thin," so let me try again. It feels like I'm getting an overemphasis on highs and some mid-range but very little at the low mid-range and into the bass.

Someone else suggested a house curve upthread, which would help given your description. I still suspect that what you're experiencing is related to the limits of your speakers (particularly dynamic range in the power band) in such a large room.

I've tried running the speakers both as full-range alongside the sub and crossing them over at 80hz but not getting much better. I've thought about setting the subcrossover at a higher level but haven't tried that yet.

Peng's suggestion is a good one. The lower the frequency, the less dynamic range the Salks can deliver, so offloading as much of that as possible to your sub should pay dividends (as long as it's not so high as to make the sub localizable by ear).

As far as the room is concerned, I'm open to some modifications/accentuations to help with things, but this is a large space that serves as music listening room/bar (shouldn't those always go together?), game room, etc.

Hell yes! Killer looking room!

Most of the space is really just passive listening so I'd like to focus on the main listening point rather than the entire room.

You should be able to achieve that, although how loud you can get will still be limited (ST are just not 'large room' speakers). Try reeling in the mids and highs a bit so that it sounds good at the listening position. (Boosting the mid bass will tax the amps more and push your drivers closer to their limits; cutting the mids/highs will effectively reduce sensitivity.)

Modifying anything on the ceiling would be a pretty tough ask - this is my wife's mid-century lounge, so any room mods have to be in keeping with the style of the room and not take away from it. I'll take some pics and post them to this thread later today.

I was wondering about that myself. MTMs like your salks will have some vertically oriented lobing that the low ceiling will exacerbate, particularly for those folks listening back in the bar area. If you can get away with some sort of acoustic treatment for the ceiling it could go a long way to ameliorate any adverse ceiling reflections into the listening area.

As appealing as the $70k McIntosh amps might be, I can't go down that road until I finish paying off the $5k I spent on Transparent speaker cables and cable risers, and then I have my eye on a $2k power conditioner from Monster. Should only take me about 36 more months....

 

[tmurnin]

Totally in love with that wallpaper!!! But two listen chairs off axis is giving me fits...AudiOCD is hard to deal with lol.

Yeah, I know, but my wife for some reason thinks she ought to have an equal seat in the room to me.....

 

[tmurnin]

Nice room dude!!! Can you pull speakers away from the wall a foot maybe pull them out to the left and right another foot and then possibly toe them in slightly and see would that sounds like

Speakers are about a foot out from the wall now. I can separate them further, add the toe-in along with the crossover settings and see how that goes.

And to clarify - I'm not looking to blast volume in the room. We occasionally listen loud, but not at house-shaking volumes. My concern is mostly about sound quality at all volumes, not power output of the speakers

 

[mazersteven]

And to clarify - I'm not looking to blast volume in the room. We occasionally listen loud, but not at house-shaking volumes. My concern is mostly about sound quality at all volumes, not power output of the speakers

That's what we're trying to help you with or else we would have recommended you buy a set of Cerwin Vegas now pull them out from the wall even more

 

[Mikado463]

Totally in love with that wallpaper!!! lol.

Love it, sixties written all over, wallpaper reminds me of the Jetsons and the silver Christmas tree.

Also is that one little sub tucked in the corner you're only one ? If so it and it's location I suspect is some of the issue

 

[Swerd]

Normally I ignore it when threads derail. But this thread has gone beyond the deep end.

When it comes to Salk SongTowers, I cannot ignore it when people suggest that room EQ will solve lack of bass. EQ, unless it is limited to frequencies below 200-250 Hz, will suck the life out of these very good sounding speakers.

I don't know about this particular model of NAD receiver, but NAD has long had the reputation of producing receivers and amps that, despite their rated power, have underwhelming power. Depending on the speaker being driven, this can easily translate to poor bass performance.

As I previously said, I know from first-hand experience that greater power will greatly improve the bass performance of these speakers. FWIW, here is the impedance curve of SongTowers. Red is impedance magnitude in ohms, and green is impedance phase angle in degrees.

SongTowers are clearly 4 ohm speakers. Look at the red trace in the 200-300 Hz range. Their mild phase angle changes, less than 90° in that range, are what makes them relatively easy to drive – for a 4 ohm speaker.

 

[mazersteven]

I love the Silver Tree but

Look at the size of that room and then we have this

But let's fix one problem first

 

[ski2xblack]

And to clarify - I'm not looking to blast volume in the room. We occasionally listen loud, but not at house-shaking volumes. My concern is mostly about sound quality at all volumes, not power output of the speakers

Try Audyssey DynamicEQ, which is a loudness compensation eq. Play with the offsets until it sounds better/less thin/more correct to your ears. Your response issues are exactly what DynamicEQ is meant for.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

The first thing I would do is move the speakers 3 feet into the room, set the receiver to Pure Direct Mode, turn off the sub and just listen for awhile. You can always add the sub back later. You just want to hear the speakers now.

I have a feeling the sound will improve significantly if those speakers are moved away from the wall a bit... its worth a try.

 

[ryanosaur]

I love the Silver Tree but

Look at the size of that room and then we have this

View attachment 42665

But let's fix one problem first

He needs three more!

 

[Swerd]

Try Audyssey DynamicEQ, which is a loudness compensation eq. Play with the offsets until it sounds better/less thin/more correct to your ears. Your response issues are exactly what DynamicEQ is meant for.

I have yet to witness any type of Audyssey room correction that didn't destroy what Dennis Murphy worked so hard to achieve with these speakers. Their mid-range is detailed and clear sounding, with very wide dispersion, creating a wide sweet spot.

Listening from either of those two blue chairs should be fine as they are shown in the photo.