American "Neoimperialism"

[Tomorrow]

What part of your own words don't set them bells a-ringin'?

IjimHJJ(...anyone else see the point?...)

Don't be ensnared by B-M's irrelevant and off-topic jibber. Your points are generally logical, well reseached, and factually correct...if a bit forcefully applied, lol. (But I like it. )

 

[Resident Loser]

Duh huh?

Absolutely! America might one day be part of Europe D), Britain might be part of America or maybe we'll both be part of China.

So why post something (the list) that (albeit originally written by another) effectively boils down to an 'us and them' squabble?

I'll bet on China...I think it's in the Book Of Revelation or some other metaphysical prognostication...

BTW, that (those) list(s) of European delights was (were)posted and compiled by yours truly in answer to a Euro-centric poster @ another site, who seems to think Europe existed only in it's post-war state and has no culpability in current world affairs...

jimHJJ(...WRONG!!!...)

 

[agarwalro]

Because, while a bag of tater chips is a buck here, it's 14,500 bolivars in Venezuela, por examplia. (That'll teach 'em to nationalize their oil and sell gas locally at 15 cents/gallon. Go get 'em Idaho...gouge 'em for those salty spuds.)

It's probably also because we have more computers at which to sit and therefore have more forum pallaver and less exercise time. Oh, yeah, and it's also less invigorating to push an automobile accelerator than it is to ride a donkey.

ROTL. I like your sense of humor.

 

[Buckle-meister]

I'll bet on China...

Me too.

...that (those) list(s) of European delights was (were)posted and compiled by yours truly in answer to a Euro-centric poster @ another site, who seems to think Europe existed only in it's post-war state and has no culpability in current world affairs...WRONG!!!...

I'm not trying to defend the 'Euro-centric poster'. I certainly don't share his views which strike me as rather narrow-minded. But it is not I who am in any way shape or form claiming Europe to be better than America, but rather you who appears to be proving (?) that America isn't as bad (and therefore must be better) than Europe, when in fact neither is better than the other. Don't you agree (with the last bit at least)?

 

[Resident Loser]

As stated earlier...

... But it is not I who am in any way shape or form claiming Europe to be better than America, but rather you who appears to be proving (?) that America isn't as bad (and therefore must be better) than Europe, when in fact neither is better than the other. Don't you agree (with the last bit at least)?

...we have our own post-1776 stupidity to contend with...and even though my forebears came to the US in the late 19th/early 20th century from eastern Europe, as an American I feel I must share in the blame...just a part of legacy IMO, the price for being American...E pluribus unum...I don't think one country or nationality is any better or worse than any other, there's enough guilt to go 'round...I just get ticked-off at those, with short-term memory, who look down on us, while forgetting their own history and wag their tongues and fingers in self-serving, self-righteous, haughty condescension...

And I despise homegrown apologists even more...

jimHJJ(...and you know who you are...)

 

[Buckle-meister]

...I don't think one country or nationality is any better or worse than any other, there's enough guilt to go 'round...

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Tomorrow]

...we have our own post-1776 stupidity to contend with...and even though my forebears came to the US in the late 19th/early 20th century from eastern Europe, as an American I feel I must share in the blame...just a part of legacy IMO, the price for being American

Just when I thought that ..... oh, never mind.

Question: Who are WE to judge the actions of people of different times...people without the 20-20 vision that history has provided us?!

Question #2: Who amongst us has not done something stupid that affected others?

Question #3: What's with all this blame-game angst?

Granted these are turbulent times. (These come and go through history, you know.) Perhaps we've had it too peaceful, too good, for too long. Perhaps it's man's nature to be...uh...what we're being.

 

[BMO]

......I just get ticked-off at those, with short-term memory, who look down on us, while forgetting their own history and wag their tongues and fingers in self-serving, self-righteous, haughty condescension...

And I despise homegrown apologists even more...

Hundreds of years from now, history will be kind to the USA.She will shrare center stage with the Roman Republic and Athens.She will be studied from her rise to her fall.People in those times will wonder why she even fell givin the histories of Rome and Athens to us as guild lines.
Our way of governing was the death blow to monarchs. It was the idea, government by the people, not by fear of government ,but governments fear of the people that made us who we were.
As socialist ideas have found there way into the very fabric of our people, so has government influences over us.We give her more power, so as to give us more security.Soon our own security will be at risk as our government no longer fears us because we are dependent on it.It is becoming the beast our fore fathers warned us of.They gave us all the checks and balances to restrain it.We failed.
Nations petioned us to become involved in there conflicts, and we acted. With these actions we lost what made us great.Today we find ourselves with no other options but to impose our will on those that are ruthless. Only because the rest of the world became dependant on us.They don't act, they talk.
When the USSR was at its zenith, the whole world quivered and stode firmly two steps behind us. Today, with the precieved threat of the Communist takeover of the world non existant, they all stand in front of us, shaking there fist. Soon there will be another " USSR".Will the civilized nations stand with our antogonist.Most likely!!

 

[Resident Loser]

Please...

Just when I thought that ..... oh, never mind.

...by all means, continue your thought...I wouldn't think to condemn our antecedents, judging past actions with a 21st century mindset, as it would be patently unfair.

Don't misconstrue my personal feelings with any sort of angst or weeping and gnashing of teeth...

My only real reservation (no pun intended) was the mis-treatment of the Native Americans...but I'm not naive.

jimHJJ(...ask if you would like any clarification...)

 

[Tomorrow]

...by all means, continue your thought...I wouldn't think to condemn our antecedents, judging past actions with a 21st century mindset, as it would be patently unfair.

Don't misconstrue my personal feelings with any sort of angst or weeping and gnashing of teeth...

My only real reservation (no pun intended) was the mis-treatment of the Native Americans...but I'm not naive.

jimHJJ(...ask if you would like any clarification...)

Thanks for the clarification. This reads better.

Just when I thought that I thought that..... LOL.

EDIT: My "angst" question was not directed at you, but was a generalization and directed to the spirit of the OP.

 

[majorloser]

...we have our own post-1776 stupidity to contend with...and even though my forebears came to the US in the late 19th/early 20th century from eastern Europe, as an American I feel I must share in the blame...just a part of legacy IMO, the price for being American...E pluribus unum...I don't think one country or nationality is any better or worse than any other, there's enough guilt to go 'round...I just get ticked-off at those, with short-term memory, who look down on us, while forgetting their own history and wag their tongues and fingers in self-serving, self-righteous, haughty condescension...

And I despise homegrown apologists even more...

jimHJJ(...and you know who you are...)

My forebears came to this continent to settle prior to the 1730's (not sure exactly when since the records were destroyed in a Virginia fire). They were most likely contributors to some of the "Darker" moments in U.S. history, including slavery ownership and almost all of the armed conflicts. I had relatives on both sides of the Civil War.

Why should I feel any shame or regret for their actions? Guilt...for what?

 

[Resident Loser]

Has anyone...

Why should I feel any shame or regret for their actions? Guilt...for what?

...suggested otherwise?

I speak for myself and happen to see it as two sides of the same coin...the past is the past, but that doesn't mean one can't wish things were otherwise...

jimHJJ(...better?...)

 

[majorloser]

as an American I feel I must share in the blame

Why? Did you do it?
And if you did, would it matter what the rest of the world feels about it?

Probably not.....we are a sum of all of our experiences and the experiences of our forefathers passed down from generation to generation.

I'm sure in the future my generation will be looked down upon as the generation in American history that used up all of the oil and destroyed the ozone layer. OH WELL!

 

[Resident Loser]

I'm certainly not...

Why? Did you do it?
And if you did, would it matter what the rest of the world feels about it?

Probably not.....we are a sum of all of our experiences and the experiences of our forefathers passed down from generation to generation.

I'm sure in the future my generation will be looked down upon as the generation in American history that used up all of the oil and destroyed the ozone layer. OH WELL!

...beating my breast and driving myself into apoplexy over things...but,

While I'm proud to be an American, there are things we (the collective) should not be particularly proud of...Mankind has a long, checkered history, some of it good, some of it bad...there's always two sides to every story, just that flip side of the coin...

I think the Native Americans got screwed and are being screwed to this day...I believe it is now illegal for them in NYS to sell cigarettes (I don't smoke) and gasoline, on their reservations, without the applicable sales taxes...even though every mention of them in the U.S. Constitution is "...the Indians, not taxed..." just another treaty we ignore at will...

And I'm not one of those who think the indigenous peoples were some grand, mystical stewards of the land or some such poppycock...especially given the fact that they engaged in slash-and-burn farming techniques and took to running entire herds of buffalo off cliffs to meet their meager hunting needs...they killed, raped, tortured, took slaves...they were, however, here first. We, of course, had God on our side and the just cause of Manifest Destiny.

It's like finding out some of our historical heros were not as heroic as they have been made out to be...and I'm hardly any sort of subscriber to revisionist history...

IMO, the Civil War was over the issue of states rights and slavery was simply a business, a particularly nasty one, but a business nonetheless...with a long, global history.

Or perhaps like being a kid in Catholic school and being told of the horrid, brutal, derisive, near-sacrificial manner in which Jesus died, only to later find out that it was simply business as usual; that was the way the Romans dealt with capital offenses.

Certain things tend to snap things into perspective and just cause me to reflect on humanity's inhumanity...

jimHJJ(...and no one is asking you to be of a like mind...)

 

[Mort Corey]

You've got some wimpy Indians back east...sheeze, cigarettes and gas?...our Kalifornia Indians have got casinos (no taxes to speak of either)

Mort

 

[Resident Loser]

Actually...

You've got some wimpy Indians back east...sheeze, cigarettes and gas?...our Kalifornia Indians have got casinos (no taxes to speak of either)

Mort

...there's Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun in Connecticut (both in the grand resort manner)...there may be smaller Native American operations in upstate NY...but the Shinnecock on LI only have their reservation and walk-in/drive-in traffic...besides it's simply the principal of the thing...and continued governmental duplicity.

The only Indians we have (and there are entirely too many of them IMO) around here, sell tandoori and curries...

jimHJJ(...just for the record...)

 

[BMO]

My forebears came to this continent to settle prior to the 1730's (not sure exactly when since the records were destroyed in a Virginia fire). They were most likely contributors to some of the "Darker" moments in U.S. history, including slavery ownership and almost all of the armed conflicts. I had relatives on both sides of the Civil War.

Why should I feel any shame or regret for their actions? Guilt...for what?

You shouldn't share any blame.Less than 10% of Southerners owned slaves.2% ownned 90% of the slaves.The issue in the cilvil war was NOT about slavery in itself.It was but a small part of the division that exsisted.

History is more concerned with not how you achieve, but what you achieve. King Edward I of England was a ruthless warrior King who had no qaulms about slaughtering whole viligages to achieve his goals. Yet historians repeatedly look to him as Engladns finest.He, by force, shaped the British Isles into a united peoples.

 

[majorloser]

You shouldn't share any blame.Less than 10% of Southerners owned slaves.2% ownned 90% of the slaves.The issue in the cilvil war was NOT about slavery in itself.It was but a small part of the division that exsisted.

History is more concerned with not how you achieve, but what you achieve. King Edward I of England was a ruthless warrior King who had no qaulms about slaughtering whole viligages to achieve his goals. Yet historians repeatedly look to him as Engladns finest.He, by force, shaped the British Isles into a united peoples.

I know very well what the issues were that spawned the Confederacy. My great great grandfather on my mother's side was name Jefferson Davis Bowan (yeah, there's a bunch of Rebs on her side). My GGFD on my father's side was a calvary major in the Union army who was shot in the back by his cousin a sniper in the Confederate army. As I stated, my family settled in Virginia and moved west into what is now West Virginia.

Most people don't even know the Mason Dixon Line was the Pennsylvania state line. Slavery WAS a big part of the conflict. The Confederacy was an agricultural based economy dependent of slave labor to survive. The North was an industrial economy that was more dependent on semi-skilled imigrant labor. The North wanted to abolish slavery which would have destroyed the Southern economy. (Yeah, I know it was more complicated than that but I hate typing)

Yeah, I'm quite proud of my ancestors. From the Revolutionary War to today, I've got relatives who have fought and died for this country.

 

[BMO]

I

Yeah, I'm quite proud of my ancestors. From the Revolutionary War to today, I've got relatives who have fought and died for this country.

Hopefuly we all all proud of our ancestors.
At the time of the Cilvil War ideology did not play into which side one fought for. They fought for there State. Had Virginia voted to stay in the Union, Robert E Lee would have been comanding the Northern Armies.
To say slavery was a major reason for the Cilvil War is like saying a Tax on Tea was the major reason for the Revolutionary War. They both contributed,but were not the major reasons.

 

[Buckle-meister]

History is more concerned with not how you achieve, but what you achieve. King Edward I of England was a ruthless warrior King who had no qaulms about slaughtering whole viligages to achieve his goals. Yet historians repeatedly look to him as Engladns finest.He, by force, shaped the British Isles into a united peoples.

He did? Edward I reigned from 1272 to 1307 yet it wasn't until 1707 that Scotland was finally united with England. Besides, I'd be a little wary of stating that the countries that comprise the U.K. are united just because history tells us it is so. The truth is not quite so clear cut.