AC receiver + speaker

-Jim-

-Jim-

Senior Audioholic
You should understand that any 7.x Receiver we are discussing offers you 7 channels of amplification, and can drive 7 speakers at once (The ".x" is the number of self powered Subs it can send a signal to.) A 5.x Receiver can only power 5 speakers at a time. You don't have to drive all the channels at a time. Your "normal" set-up would be 5.1 (for now) in your theater area with a 7.x Receiver. Any unused capacity will add a bit of reserve to the receiver's power supply in 5.1 mode. The extra cost for the AVR-S950H over an entry level stripped down 5.1 Receiver is not worth the loss in capability IMHO. And as you have pre-wired, you shouldn't limit yourself buy getting a 5.1 receiver now as you may want to expand in a year or two.

Holding off on the second Sub and speakers for the Pool Table area will allow you to purchase better 5.1 speakers. Put the rear surrounds on stands with enough surplus speaker cable and you could reposition them a bit & rotate them to push sound into the Pool Table area in the "All Stereo" mode. Then just swing them back for Home Theater.

New people into Audio often seek "Home Theater in a Box" systems for entry into HT, but are often less than satisfied with them. No one here is a fan of them (that I know anyway). I think for a $2K US Budget you can get a decent entry 5.1 system if you shop prudently and effectively.
 
S

stalag2005

Full Audioholic
Man is $2k a slim budget. I have $10k speakers alone. SVS is the best bet for the op at that budget range. If you order directly from them you can get 45 days to road test the speaker and they have great customer service. I own the SVS SB-3000 myself.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Senior Audioholic
You are correct, I have no speakers yet. Just the locations and speaker wires already fed to the location.

So, the thing I may have been confused on is....I really don't want a 7. system in my theatre room. Just 5.2. But...I mistakenly thought I needed that for multi zone. So, I think I just want to find something that is 5.2 with multi zone. Does this make sense? Also, the more I think about it...I'm not even sure the multi zone thing matters tbh. If you look at my pic up above....we don't have that theatre room closed off with doors. So, honestly, I'm not sure it matters. There is no way somebody could listen to music while others are watching a movie. It would just bleed together. I guess I just wanted two zones JUST IN CASE we closed that off in a year or so.

As far as speakers go.....reading the above worries me. I guess I didn't expect to go that high on cost. I see ones advertised all the time that come with the receiver...and they are not that expensive. Does that mean they are trash?

I don't need a second sub right away for my theatre room, so I assume I can just use one sub until I get another one down the road.
If you want 5.2 and the ability for a Zone2, then yes, you a need 7. system for the extra 2 channels to drive the Zone2 speakers. A quick search indicates you might save $100 going from 7 to 5 so you have to weigh whether that is a big enough savings.

Yes, most HT in a box have crappy speakers but you may find something passable that fits your budget. Best to ask here with a link so people can comment on the speakers included. The weak link in those packages is typically the subwoofer. I guess the question becomes do you want a short term solution that you will upgrade later, or something that you can enjoy for some time?

I started with a single $300 sub but I am replacing it this weekend with an SVS and the old one will have little resale value. Might try to run both. Adding a second sub later is one the easier upgrades and primarily evens out the base response for other seating positions. I would recommend putting the money into good front speakers as the surrounds are mostly effects channels, unless you plan on doing 5 channel music, in which case matching the surrounds is a little more important.
 
A

Ax1lla

Enthusiast
If you want 5.2 and the ability for a Zone2, then yes, you a need 7. system for the extra 2 channels to drive the Zone2 speakers. A quick search indicates you might save $100 going from 7 to 5 so you have to weigh whether that is a big enough savings.

Yes, most HT in a box have crappy speakers but you may find something passable that fits your budget. Best to ask here with a link so people can comment on the speakers included. The weak link in those packages is typically the subwoofer. I guess the question becomes do you want a short term solution that you will upgrade later, or something that you can enjoy for some time?

I started with a single $300 sub but I am replacing it this weekend with an SVS and the old one will have little resale value. Might try to run both. Adding a second sub later is one the easier upgrades and primarily evens out the base response for other seating positions. I would recommend putting the money into good front speakers as the surrounds are mostly effects channels, unless you plan on doing 5 channel music, in which case matching the surrounds is a little more important.
Perfect. This helps. I know that many people on these types of forums might cringe when I say I’m going to get some low quality speakers. But my budget is my budget. The good thing is I can upgrade them in a year or two when I have a little money set aside. Although I don’t really think I will need the multiple zones… I feel like I’m going to get it just in case. So I am going to look for a 7.2 multi zone unless… The single zone is considerably cheaper. I will post a couple ideas I am looking at for speakers as soon as I find something. In the meantime if anybody has any recommendations please let me know. Thanks so much!
 
Eppie

Eppie

Senior Audioholic
Perfect. This helps. I know that many people on these types of forums might cringe when I say I’m going to get some low quality speakers. But my budget is my budget. The good thing is I can upgrade them in a year or two when I have a little money set aside. Although I don’t really think I will need the multiple zones… I feel like I’m going to get it just in case. So I am going to look for a 7.2 multi zone unless… The single zone is considerably cheaper. I will post a couple ideas I am looking at for speakers as soon as I find something. In the meantime if anybody has any recommendations please let me know. Thanks so much!
No problem. It also comes down to varying expectations. My old sub was rated down to 30Hz. That will make most here cringe because low frequency effects run from 120Hz down to 20Hz. You need to spend money to get that extra 10 Hz. I might have been missing out on a bit, but my mains (which are not cheap) only go down to 54Hz so adding the cheap sub was still very noticeable. The sub amp has been acting up though, so you get what you pay for.

I see someone mentioned the SVS Prime Satellite 5.1 package earlier. That's good value for the money. The SB-1000 is a good subwoofer. It does not go quite as deep as the ported PB-1000 but it is smaller and will still out class most of the cheap subs out there. It's an older model, though, which has been replaced with the new Pro versions that include newer electronics and a wireless app to adjust the sub. You could add a Pro version of the sub later if you find that the SB-1000 is adequate but you want a little more. The package is only $1000 US for black ash or $1200 for gloss black which leaves a healthy budget for the AVR.

Here's a review from 2019 on a complete $1500 system on Audioholics. It uses the RSL CG3 5.1 speaker package. The RSL Speedwoofer is a great little sub in a small cabinet and the package is only $1000 which is the same as the SVS package. RSL web site says only available in white right now but more black inventory will be available later. For $1320 you can get two more speakers in the 7.1 package (2 for your pool room). A step up from that is the RSL CG23 5.1 package at $1240. It upgrades the fronts and center.

The Denon AVR-S950H that -Jim- mentioned can be found new for $500. The RSL CG23 5.1 with the S950H is $1740, mid way in your $1500 to $2000 budget (plus shipping and taxes).
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
6 ohm gives a bigger wattage rating than an 8 ohm rating would; they also boost the wattage rating by using that ridiculous 10% thd spec. I generally just look at the manufacturer's site if not the manual for specs rather than a retailer's page, too. Try the Denon page under the technical specifications then the specifications tab under that for the 8 ohm rating at a more reasonable thd percentage as well even for the 6 ohm rating https://www.denon.com/en-us/product/av-receivers/avr-s750h
 
A

Ax1lla

Enthusiast
6 ohm gives a bigger wattage rating than an 8 ohm rating would; they also boost the wattage rating by using that ridiculous 10% thd spec. I generally just look at the manufacturer's site if not the manual for specs rather than a retailer's page, too. Try the Denon page under the technical specifications then the specifications tab under that for the 8 ohm rating at a more reasonable thd percentage as well even for the 6 ohm rating https://www.denon.com/en-us/product/av-receivers/avr-s750h
OK, so I think I have this backwards. The lower the number the more wattage and better the speaker. So in this case doesn’t that mean that the denon s750h is an overall better receiver than the denon 950h? For my purposes do you think this would be a good receiver to get?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
OK, so I think I have this backwards. The lower the number the more wattage and better the speaker. So in this case doesn’t that mean that the denon s750h is an overall better receiver than the denon 950h? For my purposes do you think this would be a good receiver to get?
NO! I think you're just not understanding wattage specifications and various impedances and thd specs they can be based upon. Perhaps try this article https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/product-managing-receiver-platforms-power-ratings/product-managing-receiver-platforms-power-ratings-page-2

Generally you get a little more as you move up the avr model number ladder....sometimes it's not an amp difference but rather features or connectivity or apps.
 
A

Ax1lla

Enthusiast
NO! I think you're just not understanding wattage specifications and various impedances and thd specs they can be based upon. Perhaps try this article https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/product-managing-receiver-platforms-power-ratings/product-managing-receiver-platforms-power-ratings-page-2

Generally you get a little more as you move up the avr model number ladder....sometimes it's not an amp difference but rather features or connectivity or apps.
Ok, can u confirm that the denon 750h...that’s has a minimum impedance of 6ohms.....means I can’t/shouldn’t get 8ohms speakers? For example I shouldn’t get the Denon 750 H in conjunction with the svs prime satellite package?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Ok, can u confirm that the denon 750h...that’s has a minimum impedance of 6ohms.....means I can’t/shouldn’t get 8ohms speakers? For example I shouldn’t get the Denon 750 H in conjunction with the svs prime satellite package?
That an amp has a 6 ohm rating doesn't mean it's particularly limited to 6 ohm speakers or won't provide power under 6 ohms. I prorbably wouldn't drive low sensitivity 4 ohm rated speakers to very high volumes with it, but it would work up to a point. Keep in mind a speaker's impedance rating is only a nominal one, the speaker will vary its impedance with frequency. Try this article https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/loudspeaker-sensitivity

I'd think the 750 would work fine generally with the SVS primes. Up to a point of course, everything has limits. A consideration for the long term, and using an avr with different speakers down the line is I prefer to have an avr with a full set of pre-outs so I can add external amps if necessary. The full preouts only starts with Denon avrs in the X3xxx and above series, altho you do also get the best Audyssey program (XT32) that way, too. I know it costs more and may be out of your budget, just mentioning it for consideration.....
 
-Jim-

-Jim-

Senior Audioholic
Ax1lla, I'll try to simplify this a bit as well. Impedance is a characteristic of a speaker -not the receiver. The amplifier section in these receivers are rated to power (push electrons if you will - current) into a certain nominal load. (Notice the word nominal, as impedance -which is defined as the AC resistance to current flow - shifts as the frequency of the signal moves - think from bass sounds to treble like symbols. So don't try to overthink this, it's easier to just work with the nominal ratings for now.) Some OEMs fool around with their numbers, IMHO, in an attempt to deceive the public, so you cannot believe everything you see at first glance. (Some call this "marketing")

Most folks here would prefer all OEMs rate the amplifier section outputs in their equipment into 8 ohm loads (Speakers), and 4 ohms, based on a frequency of 20=>20,000 Hz with a distortion value clearly documented. This is because there are lots of Speakers at both nominal ratings these days. Some amplifiers are less able to deal with lower impedance speakers as the resistance to current flow lessens. If you change from an 8 to a 4 ohm nominal impedance speaker, the amplifier (if it can handle 4 ohm loads) can typically produce more power. Few speakers are rated at a 6 ohm nominal level.

For most folks, just make sure the receiver you are looking at will match what the nominal impedance is of the speakers you are looking at. The Denon receivers all will work just fine with the SVS Prime Speakers.

I think you are more concerned with meeting your budget, than obtaining better flexibility and Audyssey sound correction, as per lovinthehd above.
 
A

Ax1lla

Enthusiast
I truly appreciate everyone helping me on this. I am slowly learning how it all works, but I would be completely BS-ing you if I said all of this was clear to me still. I read and watched videos, but am still a little muddy on a few things. So, let me ask what I hope are a few additional easy quick questions:

  1. The Denon 750H has a spec that says minimal impedance of 6ohms. Does this mean that I can use a 6 or 8 ohm speaker and the amp can handle it?
  2. The Denon AVR-S950H (newer and more expensive) shows a minimal impedance of 8 ohms. I am assuming this means I should in theory...not use 6 ohm speakers with it? Stick with 8s?
  3. The 750 has 75W per channel (@8ohms). The 950 has 90w. Will I regret only 75W? I want my home theatre system to grumble when watching action movies, but...I'm not going to listen at CRAZY high levels. But, if you think I might regret it....I will shell out a couple hundred more and get the newer one.
I know items 1 & 2 can have caveats and exceptions, but...please dumb it down if possible with a yes or no. Meaning, I've seen the videos where there are exceptions to all ratings, etc. but, my head is already spinning enough - lol.

Again, I greatly appreciate the helpful advice on here. You guys are great.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
1. Where particularly are you seeing this "minimal 6 ohm" spec? You can use lower impedance speakers, like 4 ohm, but the power supply/voltage may be limited at higher output.

2. Same. The 950 is just slightly more powerful, but can definitely handle 6 ohm speakers, it even has ratings at 6 ohm. https://www.denon.com/en-us/product/special/avr-s950h-r

3. The difference between 75wpc and 90wpc translates to less than 1 dB spl which is very little. There is something to be said about having more amp than less amp, tho. But real power comes with external amps, avrs are generally within 2-3 dB of each other....and for this you need to move up the Denon ladder before you get the options of a full set of pre-outs so you can use external amps if needed. Sometimes ya just gotta spend a bit more to cover more potential bases....
 
-Jim-

-Jim-

Senior Audioholic
Ax1lla, , if you want to go with a bit lower powered receiver (and you want super loud) your focus then should be to find speakers that you like that are quite efficient. That means the Sensitivity value needs to be high. (Something like 94 dB / 1m / 2.83V in Half Space would be awesome, but few are at that level in the Budget that I know of). SVS Prime Sensitivity is 85 dB (2.83V @ 1 meter full-space, 300-3kHz). But even these can get uncomfortably loud at 103 dB SPL with all 5 at 75 watts with the listener 8 feet away from them.

(A 94 dB Speaker system will get to 112 dB SPL with the same parameters; which is louder than Jet flyover at 300 meters. You would need almost 10 times the power for a speaker with a Sensitivity of 85 dB to get to that loudness level => if it could handle the power. )

A rule of thumb is a 3 dB increase is perceived as twice as Loud. And it typically takes 10 times the power to to get there with the same speaker (again => if it could handle the power.). The bottom line is the difference between 75 and even 100 watts isn't nearly as significant as a 3 dB increase in Sensitivity. So if you are chasing Loud, power isn't really going to help as much as Sensitivity.

For just starting out, I'd go for the Denon AVR-S950H I recommended earlier and try the SVS Prime Satellite 5.1 system. (It comes with the SB-1000 Pro Subwoofer) If you don't like the speakers you can return them for a full refund, and they pay the shipping (in the USA). They also offer a 1 year upgrade program, with no penalty, if you decide to move up.

I see little downside for you here.


.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Ax1lla, , if you want to go with a bit lower powered receiver (and you want super loud) your focus then should be to find speakers that you like that are quite efficient. That means the Sensitivity value needs to be high. (Something like 94 dB / 1m / 2.83V in Half Space would be awesome, but few are at that level in the Budget that I know of). SVS Prime Sensitivity is 85 dB (2.83V @ 1 meter full-space, 300-3kHz). But even these can get uncomfortably loud at 103 dB SPL with all 5 at 75 watts with the listener 8 feet away from them.

(A 94 dB Speaker system will get to 112 dB SPL with the same parameters; which is louder than Jet flyover at 300 meters. You would need almost 10 times the power for a speaker with a Sensitivity of 85 dB to get to that loudness level => if it could handle the power. )

A rule of thumb is a 3 dB increase is perceived as twice as Loud. And it typically takes 10 times the power to to get there with the same speaker (again => if it could handle the power.). The bottom line is the difference between 75 and even 100 watts isn't nearly as significant as a 3 dB increase in Sensitivity. So if you are chasing Loud, power isn't really going to help as much as Sensitivity.

For just starting out, I'd go for the Denon AVR-S950H I recommended earlier and try the SVS Prime Satellite 5.1 system. (It comes with the SB-1000 Pro Subwoofer) If you don't like the speakers you can return them for a full refund, and they pay the shipping (in the USA). They also offer a 1 year upgrade program, with no penalty, if you decide to move up.

I see little downside for you here.


.
FWIW 6 to 10 dB is more where the doubling loudness thing occurs, depending who you ask. 3dB requires doubling of power, but a 3dB increase is more a noticeable increase than any apparent doubling of loudness....
 
Eppie

Eppie

Senior Audioholic
Ok, can u confirm that the denon 750h...that’s has a minimum impedance of 6ohms.....means I can’t/shouldn’t get 8ohms speakers? For example I shouldn’t get the Denon 750 H in conjunction with the svs prime satellite package?
Already some good info above. Industry standard is for most speakers to be designed for an 8 ohm load. Consequently most amplifiers rate their power into 8 ohms. This power rating is at a given amount of Total Harmonic Distortion (THD). A useful rating is power at THD of 0.1% or lower. A rating at 10% THD is bogus and something to watch out for as the same amp at THD of 0.1% will have a lower power rating than at 10%. It's a trick some manufacturers use to inflate power ratings.

The impedance of a speaker has no correlation to quality. It is a design choice. There are good 8 ohm speakers and bad 4 ohm speakers and vise versa. You see different power ratings at different impedances for information purposes because people own different kinds of speakers that present different kinds of loads. It is not a recommendation of one being better than the other. Some manufacturers will give you a power rating at 2/4/6/8 ohms. Sometimes it will say peak power as opposed to continuous power. Peak power ratings tell you how well an amplifier will handle large transients and is related to dynamic range. When comparing amps, make sure you compare apples to apples (both amps at 8 ohms or both at 6 or both at 4).

When do you need to worry about speaker impedance? Only when you get a speaker below 8 ohms. Any amp will handle an 8 ohm speaker. Some amps will not handle a 4 ohm speaker well. As mentioned above, speaker impedance varies with frequency, so that 8 ohm speaker may dip down to 4 ohms, which most amps can handle, but a 4 ohm speaker could dip down to 2 ohms, which is close to being a short circuit and requires an amp that can handle those small loads. Think of the speaker rating as more of an average.

The sensitivity rating is related to efficiency. A higher sensitivity speaker is more efficient and will play louder at the same given amount of power. This number is not a big concern for most, especially in a smaller room where you are close to the speakers. The further from the speaker you get, the more power you need to get the same volume (SPL) at your seating position. There are some speakers like Magnapan electrostatics that have low sensitivity as a consequence of their design and require more power, but in general for the type of speakers you are looking at it is not generally a determining factor.

I still recommend the SVS or the RSL 5.1 systems with the S950H. Both speaker sets come with a good subwoofer.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Just a slight addition to Eppie's post above, in that when comparing ratings of an amp to keep it to the same impedances, but to also add at the same THD or other related spec (like SINAD e.g.).

Look at a bench test graph of an amp's output and the various wattage ratings possible it could have depending on the THD. Look at the graph as to where the wattage is at various THD points....just before the knee where thd shoots up is where the manufacturer rated this avr (150wpc), but if you move further up the graph, it's 172.6 watts at .1% THD, and 190.7 watts at 1% THD. Even tho Denon doesn't "rate" the amp at 4 ohms at all, you can see it's relatively capable there as well. I own this avr....
 

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