5 Reasons Dolby Atmos May Be DOA

RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
Why buy an AVR with only ATMOS when in 2 years all the AVR will have both ATMOS & DTS-UHD? :D
I think that next year Atmos will have more features. Speaker placement and perhaps benefits for 5.1/7.1.
I'd like to see DTS-UHD sooner, but you may be right since there is not much information on it.

- Rich
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
This is an interesting read about a NY demo of Atmos:

Dolby Demos Atmos for Cinema and Home - AVS Forum

All attendees could tell the difference up firing speakers and ceiling mount in the HT room.
This was attributed to improper speaker placement.


- Rich
I skimmed that thread and unless I am misinterpreting, the listeners thought the Atmos speakers would have performed better if closer to a side wall? I can only see that as making it worse for two reasons:

  • boundary gain which would boost bass frequencies and possibly make the speaker even more localizable
  • less precision in the bouncing now that you have another surface to reflect sound

I've been discussing Atmos speakers and EQ with several EQ companies like Audyssey and working on a very interesting article about this now. I'm sure our friends at AVS will appreciate it too ;)
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I think that next year Atmos will have more features. Speaker placement and perhaps benefits for 5.1/7.1.
I'd like to see DTS-UHD sooner, but you may be right since there is not much information on it.

- Rich
If Dolby can prove a real benefit for existing 5.1/ 7.1 systems with Atmos then I'll be ALL over that! I also look forward to what DTS does b/c I'd hate to see them out in the cold on the next gen format. I really like the idea of having two major players instead of one.
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
I skimmed that thread and unless I am misinterpreting, the listeners thought the Atmos speakers would have performed better if closer to a side wall? I can only see that as making it worse for two reasons:

  • boundary gain which would boost bass frequencies and possibly make the speaker even more localizable
  • less precision in the bouncing now that you have another surface to reflect sound

I've been discussing Atmos speakers and EQ with several EQ companies like Audyssey and working on a very interesting article about this now. I'm sure our friends at AVS will appreciate it too ;)
Ralph Potts was offered the explanation that the speakers were too close to the wall. I pointed out that that was only a theory and he agrees.

The Dolby home Atmos demo did not have the same results as the one in CA. Many blame the room or could it be the participants.

The Audyssey stuff should be interesting, stay in trouble :p :D

- Rich
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Ralph Potts was offered the explanation that the speakers were too close to the wall. I pointed out that that was only a theory and he agrees.

The Dolby home Atmos demo did not have the same results as the one in CA. Many blame the room or could it be the participants.

The Audyssey stuff should be interesting, stay in trouble :p :D

- Rich
If Dolby is having trouble creating a good demo with their own tech in their own set up rooms using Atmos elevation speakers, imagine the average consumer setting this up in their living room!
 
J

Jack N

Audioholic
I really don’t have the desire, or the time, to read throughall the posts. I have read some of them. Some of the negative points have somereal legitimacy, but then so do some of the positive ones. Keep in mind that thelarge majority of posts in a forum are nothing but peoples’ opinions. Most ofthem carry no fact or have any irrefutable evidence. Sadly there are articlesbeing published that aren’t much better. But yet, I find it interesting that somany people are willing to follow the leader, right or wrong, even if it meansfollowing him/her to a place they don’t want to be. What that means is thatthose who have the ability to influence others need to be careful of what theysay. Akin to a news broadcast. TV news show producers at least try to presentan unbiased report of what has, or is happening. Sadly to say, that obviouslyisn’t happening with the staff at some audio websites. They seem more thaneager to badmouth a truly promising technology, to the point of death. Is Atmosperfect? No, but it is highly adaptable, and, it’s backwards compatible. Is itbeing marketed correctly? Absolutely not. However at the very least, itcertainly is an interesting technology that could truly change the way allaudio recordings are done, starting in the very near future. And that would bea benefit for everyone in the long haul.

So I’m not understanding the logic. Why would a website wantto kill something that shows solid promise for better sound? Isn’t better soundwhat our hobby is all about?

> So does it cost too much? Compared to currenttechnology, ya it costs more. But it’s certainly a far cry from the horrendous costof most new technology video displays like CRT vs Plasma when it first came out.

> So are the Atmos enabled speakers stupid? No. From whatI understand the enabled speakers were never intended to sound as good asproperly positioned speakers. The enabled speakers are supposed to be a costeffective alternative for a reasonably configured room. Nothing more. They’renot meant to be studio monitors, and they’re not intended for criticallistening. But the cynics want you to think otherwise.

> So who said nobody bought height/width speakers? I boughtthem. Granted not everybody does, but those people who want a little more fromtheir sound systems do. The same may happen with Atmos receivers – If you don’twant Atmos sound, you don’t have to use it. Your conventional speaker set-up willstill work just fine, maybe even a little better.

> So the only people that will use Atmos are stupid? Huhh??Are you serious!? You want Atmos to fail so badly that you’re willing to insultyour patrons and drive them away!? Yikes. I can assure you that you’re lucky tobe writing for anyone. It’s hard to believe that even got published. Good levelheaded thinking there.

> So Atmos doesn’t have enough WOW!? Ooof da! Not even worthgoing there.
I understand that this and other websites feel that they’re,in some way, helping their patrons. But they’re not helping, or pursuing thetruth in audio, because they’re not giving a factual frame of reference. Theyhaven’t tried it, or even sat down and looked at Atmos for what it truly is, atall. And because the experts don’t see the entire system as being absolutelyperfect, they somehow deduce that none of it can be any good. It’s not logicalthinking. So in my opinion (this is a forum, right?) they’re doing theirpatrons and Atmos a huge disservice by jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions. It’snothing short of an injustice. Atmos, or something very similar, is a perfectlylogical next step in the evolution of sound reproduction. It shouldn’t besacrificed before it hits the market.

Don’t get me wrong. Normally I have a lot of respect for theAudioholics staff. But how they’ve been handling Atmos has been nothing shortof poor at best. It’s almost like they’re going out of their way to make Atmoslook as bad as possible. In my opinion, poor journalism that’s not helpful or atrue representation of what’s being offered.

So yes. I’m one the stupid ones. I’ve been constructing mydedicated home theater for a while now and have made the decision to mountspeakers on the ceiling and go Atmos regardless of what you the expert says. I’mwilling to take a chance (no, I’m not rich by any means – I work in a machineshop) and hope there is plenty of content available. I’m looking forward tohaving a sound system that’s better than average and hope that others who areconstructing home theaters feel the same way to help get the ball rolling.
 
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H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
TV news show producers at least try to present an unbiased report of what has, or is happening.
Priceless!!! :D Thanks for that!!! And it lends untold credibility to the rest of your post.
 
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M

MidnightSensi2

Audioholic Chief
I really don’t have the desire, or the time, to read throughall the posts.
I can tell. It doesn't seem seem like you read the complete articles or watched the video either. Basically all of your counter-points are acknowledged..



Keep in mind that thelarge majority of posts in a forum are nothing but peoples’ opinions.
Right, that's why it's called a forum. The whole purpose of a forum, be it in Roman times or now in the Industrial Revolution is a collection of opinions and discussion.


Most ofthem carry no fact or have any irrefutable evidence. Sadly there are articlesbeing published that aren’t much better. But yet, I find it interesting that somany people are willing to follow the leader, right or wrong, even if it meansfollowing him/her to a place they don’t want to be.
These are original articles and content. Grab a press release for atmos and copy and paste some lines into Google... lots of the press didn't even bother to change the copy, let alone challenge it.


What that means is thatthose who have the ability to influence others need to be careful of what theysay. Akin to a news broadcast. TV news show producers at least try to presentan unbiased report of what has, or is happening. Sadly to say, that obviouslyisn’t happening with the staff at some audio websites.
Um.


So I’m not understanding the logic. Why would a website wantto kill something that shows solid promise for better sound? Isn’t better soundwhat our hobby is all about?
You realize this is about Atmos Home, right? Mainly the skepticism (which is all this is, no one is admitting to knowing all the facts) is surrounding that.


So the only people that will use Atmos are stupid? Huhh??Are you serious!? You want Atmos to fail so badly that you’re willing to insultyour patrons and drive them away!? Yikes. I can assure you that you’re lucky tobe writing for anyone. It’s hard to believe that even got published. Good levelheaded thinking there.
Um. Who said that? I actually did read the articles, and threads, and can't recall anyone, especially Audioholics, saying people using Atmos are stupid, or wishing that Atmos will fail.


So Atmos doesn’t have enough WOW!? Ooof da! Not even worthgoing there.
I understand that this and other websites feel that they’re,in some way, helping their patrons. But they’re not helping, or pursuing thetruth in audio, because they’re not giving a factual frame of reference. Theyhaven’t tried it, or even sat down and looked at Atmos for what it truly is, atall. And because the experts don’t see the entire system as being absolutelyperfect, they somehow deduce that none of it can be any good. It’s not logicalthinking.
Might want to re-read the articles. And remember the authors aren't the same..


So in my opinion (this is a forum, right?)
Yes, you're on a forum. We can deduce that it's your opinion since you're writing it.


they’re doing theirpatrons and Atmos a huge disservice by jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions. It’snothing short of an injustice. Atmos, or something very similar, is a perfectlylogical next step in the evolution of sound reproduction. It shouldn’t besacrificed before it hits the market.
Injustice? I don't take audio THAT seriously. Also nothing was sacrificed. Well, except for that cow... but that was ONCE.. one time we sacrificed a cow. And it was in the Boring thread, so, that doesn't count.


Don’t get me wrong. Normally I have a lot of respect for theAudioholics staff. But how they’ve been handling Atmos has been nothing shortof poor at best. It’s almost like they’re going out of their way to make Atmoslook as bad as possible. In my opinion, poor journalism that’s not helpful or atrue representation of what’s being offered.
Would you rather they copy the press release?


So yes. I’m one the stupid ones.
Don't be so hard on yourself.


I’ve been constructing mydedicated home theater for a while now and have made the decision to mountspeakers on the ceiling and go Atmos regardless of what you the expert says. I’mwilling to take a chance (no, I’m not rich by any means – I work in a machineshop) and hope there is plenty of content available. I’m looking forward tohaving a sound system that’s better than average and hope that others who areconstructing home theaters feel the same way to help get the ball rolling.
If I was ground up building a system I'd likely install ceiling speakers also..why not. Compared to construction costs adding the speakers isn't too bad. I'd likely mount them on flyware like the Dolby demo theater is done so I wouldn't get locked in and could have some adjustability.

Or just run the wires and mount the flyware, then when content came, just add the speakers.


Don’t get me wrong. Normally I have a lot of respect for theAudioholics staff. But how they’ve been handling Atmos has been nothing shortof poor at best. It’s almost like they’re going out of their way to make Atmoslook as bad as possible. In my opinion, poor journalism that’s not helpful or atrue representation of what’s being offered.
I question Audioholics when I disagree, but I don't think Audioholics has been handling Atmos poorly - nor do I think it's essential I agree with every writer 100% of the time. These have been editorials. They are opinions. Each has reinforced that explicitly in the article to prevent someone from thinking otherwise.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I only partially read one post, but I think you are all wrong.
I only read 1/4 of a post, and you biotches are all biased as hell if you don't AGREE with me! :eek: :D

You are supposed to agree with me and love what I love. Otherwise, you suck. :eek:
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
*** Warning: The following is complete conjecture and opinion. Any relation to actual facts is unintentional ***

The Atmos supporters are remarkably intolerant to skepticism.
When an industry is attempting to separate the consumer from their money, the burden of proof lies with the vendors.

The biggest credibility problem for home Atmos is the Atmos enabled speaker.
It is reasonable to suppose that Dolby wanted the initial release of Atmos to benefit 5.1/7.1 systems.
Why? A much easier sales pitch and bigger audience (there have already been credible hints that more is coming for home Atmos in future releases).

CE manufacturers and/or DSP hardware and software were unable to deliver this functionality this year.
The fallback became home Atmos support ceiling channels only.

The market became miniscule so, enter Atmos enabled speakers are the solution.
Put another way, if the full Atmos could benefit 5.1/7.1 systems, there might not be Atmos speakers at all, just optional ceiling channels.

There have been demos in CA and NY in which Dolby asked the attendees to identify if the Atmos or ceiling speaker were being used.
No one was fooled. Apparently, Dolby has completely lost any semblance of objectivity :p

It was also interesting was the demo did not toggle between the TrueHD and Atmos tracks with the demo content.
That is a good way to demonstrate the Atmos enhancement.

- Rich
 
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rojo

rojo

Audioholic Samurai
Wow, Jack. I'm sorry we aren't making you feel warm and fuzzy about your early adoption of Atmos. I don't recall anyone calling early adopters stupid, though. That's either a strawman argument, or you simply misread a criticism and took it personally. Nothing personal at all, but Atmos is just simply not for me -- not for the foreseeable future, anyway. I'm absolutely willing to revise my opinion as the technology matures. For now, I'm not displeased with my current setup. But I do thank you and other early adopters for funding the R&D of my daughter's first HT when she grows up.
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
From the NY demo with bolding added:

Dolby Demos Atmos for Cinema and Home - AVS Forum

We re-watched the Star Trek clip on the home-theater setup, and the modest nature of the system Dolby demoed diminished the impact of the presentation. Nevertheless, it possessed many of the same characteristics we heard in the screening room—namely, it was a bit harsh, dry, and bright. Atmos did not seem to add much to the immersive experience in that clip versus what I've heard in the past. Orbitron and the other guys agreed that our own systems did quite well with the same material.

Since Dolby did not A/B 7.1 versus Atmos during that clip, it was impossible to tell how much dimension Atmos added to the mix. In fact, Dolby did not offer a comparison between regular 7.1 and Atmos using theatrical contentthat comparison was exclusive to the helicopter flying around the room and the rainstorm demo, which sounded rather different depending on the speakers used for the overhead effect. In our demo, the ceiling-mounted speakers sounded clearer, and there was a greater sense of overhead space. Also, the timbre match with the main speakers was good enough to avoid distraction. The reflected sound was more diffuse; to my ears, it sounded processed—like a low-bitrate MP3. In addition, the reflected sound did not create as convincing an illusion of sound coming from directly overhead. I wonder if the speaker placement—directly against the walls—was responsible for that discrepancy.

The end of the home theater demo involved the "Leaf" trailer. Dolby did not tell the audience if the clip utilized the ceiling speakers or reflected sound. When it finished playing, the presenter asked for a show of hands if we thought the clip used ceiling speakers—nobody raised their hand. Evidently, the difference between overhead and reflected Atmos overhead channels was too obvious to fool anyone. [Editor's note: the same thing happened with the group in LA—no one thought the overhead speakers were being used.]

I chatted with Ralph Potts about the experience, especially since he gave the Blu-ray version of Star Trek: Into Darkness a perfect score of 100 for audio. Ralph mentioned that in many dedicated home theaters, the side and rear surrounds are above ear level, unlike in Dolby's home-theater demo. That somewhat diminished the advantage offered by the dedicated overhead channels. On the other hand, Ralph mentioned that he sees a lot more potential in Atmos than the Dolby demo was able to convey, and I agree. We need a better demonstration, in a dedicated home theater, to understand what Atmos can do.

As soon as the Dolby event ended, we headed over to Theo Kalomirakis' new home theater, the Roxy 2.0. Unfortunately, Ralph could not make it, but Chris Boylan, the editor of BigPictureBigSound.com came along. Chris was part of the group we were in during the demos at Dolby, so he had the same experience we did. We watched the scene from Star Trek on Blu-ray with the Dolby TrueHD 7.1 soundtrack. I thought Theo's system sounded better than the theatrical Atmos presentation at Dolby's screening room, and quite superior to Dolby's home theater presentation. Even so, I do think that Theo's theater could benefit from Atmos, as long as it improves upon an already excellent presentation.

When I got home, I watched the same scene from Star Trek on my system, while my memory was still fresh. The next day, I received a PM from Jwhip, who played the clip on his system when he got home. He said, "In my system, the music opening to the film was silky smooth, much better than anything we heard yesterday." Regarding the surround effects, Jwhip mentioned, "I have my surround speakers above ear level, pointed down at the coach, and agree with Ralph on that point. In fact, the flying arrows at the beginning of the film were as convincing as they were in the Atmos."

My 7.1 setup, featuring Dolby PL IIz with front-height channels, immersed me in the Blu-ray's Dolby TrueHD soundtrack just fine. There was precious little to differentiate it from what I heard in the Atmos mix. I can only conclude that proper setup and calibration trumps new formats when it comes to the overall surround-sound experience. That is why it's vitally important that Atmos demos take place on properly set up and calibrated systems—it's not a blunt tool. Without a proper demo, I predict that most enthusiasts will not feel a strong urge to upgrade an existing 7.1 system just for Atmos—the format needs to up the suspension-of-disbelief ante. Achieving that requires a seamless soundfield, and I look forward to an Atmos demo that convincingly pulls it off.
The most generous conclusion is that Dolby is incapable of properly demonstrating Atmos. :p

- Rich
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I do thank you and other early adopters for funding the R&D of my daughter's first HT when she grows up.
LOL :D

That was good laugh. :D

This whole ATMOS thread has been a good laugh. :D

The salient surround channels in ATMOS truly make up 90% of movie soundtrack, while the unimportant front Left & Right channels and the nonexistent Center Dialogue channel and useless subwoofer only make up 10% of the movie soundtrack....................................... Not. :D

Note to ATMOS: improve my damn front 3 channels and subwoofers! :eek: :D
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Dolby Atmos WILL Succed! An alternative viewpoint

As I stated before we allow all viewpoints to be expressed on this site.

As such, Steve Munz wrote up his perspective on Dolby Atmos.

Unless you've been living under a rock, you're probably aware of Atmos, the next generation object-based sound format by Dolby. Due to take the home theater world by storm this fall, the home edition can be expanded up to a Cineplex-esque 34.1 setup. This has left some wondering exactly who is going to buy into the format, and how successful it will be in the long run. Here we'll offer a few thoughts and opinions on why Atmos will succeed in the home, even if everybody and their brother isn't necessarily going to rush out and buy a couple dozen speakers for their living room.


Read 5 Reasons Dolby Atmos WILL Succeed

What do you think?
 

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zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
For me - Atmos in the home is going to be slow to catch on, and may or may not succeed.
It tends to make me think about a turtle trying to cross the street - will it make it, or get
run over by a car. Sometimes a turtle will make it across.

I still think it is being rushed to the market - However, Dolby is hoping it will succeed.

 
K

Kalai7275

Audiophyte
I Need This. But at the moment pull stop. My current Yamaha - RX-3067 not capable of this...New budget.
 
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