5 Reasons Dolby Atmos May Be DOA

M

MidnightSensi2

Audioholic Chief
In defense of being skeptical...

Staying skeptical the last, um, decade ... has been the smart choice. Lots of stuff has failed, the content didn't come, it was gimmicky... and people wasted their money.

Progress is SLOW in audio/video. Content drives me to buy. So, make some good content, then we'll talk. ;) It's not like its HARD to buy the stuff when I'm ready. hehe. :p
 
J

jay21112

Audioholic
When I bought speakers for my room I bought 11 speakers (including front and rear heights) all of the same brand and line so they matched. But my AVR only supports 7.1. So for years I've had the heights installed but doing nothing. So this was the year I was going finally to upgrade my AVR, and I was so excited about Atmos and being able to use my heights speakers. ...And then I learn that won't work.

So I say screw you Atmos, YOU'RE GIVING ME WHAT YOU WANT TO GIVE ME, NOT WHAT I WANT OR NEED. And I'm instead going to put a projector in this year, and I'll upgrade to Atmos in a few years, when it's upgraded to the point of being FLEXIBLE.

This is why Atmos is failing right now, and this is why 3D failed. Everyone wants 3D, but nobody wants glasses. They are giving us what they want to give us, but not what we want.

Atmos will gain acceptance when you can change the location of ceiling mounted speakers....like to the high side/front/rear walls and pointed downwards. That sounds pretty much like an overhead speaker to me, but a lot easier to do.

3D will gain acceptance when they put two translucent (or transparent?) screens one behind the other - one offset to the right, and one offset to the left, in a TV - so the TV can produce stereoscopic images without glasses. I mean WTF, with all the insane tech out there, why is that so tough to do?

...Just my thoughts.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
When I bought speakers for my room I bought 11 speakers (including front and rear heights) all of the same brand and line so they matched. But my AVR only supports 7.1. So for years I've had the heights installed but doing nothing. So this was the year I was going finally to upgrade my AVR, and I was so excited about Atmos and being able to use my heights speakers. ...And then I learn that won't work.

So I say screw you Atmos, YOU'RE GIVING ME WHAT YOU WANT TO GIVE ME, NOT WHAT I WANT OR NEED.
You bought 11 speakers, a 7.1 AVR, and now you're upset that the Atmos feature won't work w/ your heights/wides? :confused:
Have you considered an 11.1 AVR? :rolleyes:
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
I would argue that Dolby already won. They have secured their licensing fees from the CE manufacturers.
Now, they need enough acceptance to keep the feature alive in coming years. That, and to displace DTS-MA as the proffered BD soundtrack.

- Rich
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I would argue that Dolby already won. They have secured their licensing fees from the CE manufacturers.
Now, they need enough acceptance to keep the feature alive in coming years. That, and to displace DTS-MA as the proffered BD soundtrack.

- Rich
That is why DTS is coming out with MDA. :D

MDA will take all the mistakes of ATMOS and make it right. MDA will probably be more flexible than ATMOS and give people what they are asking for. :D

When DD came out, DTS kicked its butts.

When TrueHD came out, DTS-HD MA kicked its butts.

So the real reason ATMOS is DOA to me is because DTS MDA will kick its butts too. :D

Good things come to those who wait. ;)
 
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RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
That is why DTS is coming out with MDA. :D

MDA will take all the mistakes of ATMOS and make it right. MDA will probably be more flexible than ATMOS and give people what they are asking for. :D

So the real reason ATMOS is DOA to me is because of DTS MDA. :D
I'd like to see DTS-MDA come to market.

"Ask not what object oriented sound can do for you, ask where you can locate your ceiling channels" :p :D
 
Cos

Cos

Audioholic Samurai
I would argue that Dolby already won. They have secured their licensing fees from the CE manufacturers.
Now, they need enough acceptance to keep the feature alive in coming years. That, and to displace DTS-MA as the proffered BD soundtrack.

- Rich
QFT

Atmos may have not won over the more experienced guru, but just like any marketing push there are a lot more of the general population that will perceive it to be a "Must Have." This is the same general public that will never go to a board like this to do research, but rely more on the marketing of the OEM and their local "best buy" sales rep.

I admit I am a little of both, but I am starting to take a more conservative approach to new technologies. I still will always be an early adopter, I just enjoy tech that much. It's why I upgrade my cell phone every six months or less and stood in line for the next IPAD...well at least until Apple got smart and let you order online and pick up in store.

Going to a lot of movies, mostly action flicks at my local IMAX, I always wondered how they would implement it in a HT environment and what is really the right number of speakers for a room size. Had I not decided to do build my man cave in my new house, I probably wouldn't have even considered it when purchasing new pre/pro speakers. But given this opportunity to build a room for scratch I have decided to try it out, mainly because I can pre-wire the room and everything is being done at once. I can have the ceiling speakers pre wired to do either 7.2.2 or 7.2.4. I would never invest in Atmos Speciality Speakers, but it is not that difficult to add ceiling speakers in my scenario and GE has ones that match well with the rest of my configuration.

That being said...not sure if I even want to invest in another pre/pro at this point, because HT technology, specifically 4k, is so messed up in relation to standards, that even after 1 year of 4k TVs being out, they are still making decisions on copy protection like HDCP 2.2 etc. I would say that 90% of the population who buys HT gear, has no idea what is happening in this arena and that their investments are all a waste. I can see a lot of people being extremely pissed off in the next year.

If being on this board has taught me anything, it's probably to be a little more patient, at least for Audio/Specifically Home Theater. Had I not been on this board, I would have gone out and bought the next new receiver and extra speakers for Atmos regardless. Now at least I have a little more "wait and see" and will hold of investing in new gear...outside of speakers..until I am better informed on making the right decision.

Long winded off topic post, I apologize, but yes, I agree with Rich, they have won, but lets see them do something with it, so it is not the next Betamax of this generation.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I'd like to see DTS-MDA come to market.

"Ask not what object oriented sound can do for you, ask where you can locate your ceiling channels" :p :D
Remember when DD Decoders were first added to processors and AVR before DTS did? It was probably like 2 or 3 years before DTS came on board.

It's not how you start the race, but how you finish. :D

DTS is so damn smart. Let ATMOS take all the fire. Learn from their mistakes. Make it almost perfect. Everyone will love them.

History repeats itself. ;)
 
J

Joost80

Audiophyte
Take you audioholics for your open-minded, realistic and non hype driven articles. Greetings from Holland.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
That is why DTS is coming out with MDA. :D

MDA will take all the mistakes of ATMOS and make it right. MDA will probably be more flexible than ATMOS and give people what they are asking for. :D

When DD came out, DTS kicked its butts.

When TrueHD came out, DTS-HD MA kicked its butts.

So the real reason ATMOS is DOA to me is because DTS MDA will kick its butts too. :D

Good things come to those who wait. ;)
When DD and DTS first came on the scene, Dolby was marketing DD as being equivalent in sound quality to DTS. They claimed DD was more efficient and could use more compression. Yet EVERY music DVD I bought sounded superior in DTS (remember the Eagles vs Fleetwood Mac)? The Eagles Hell Freezes over on DTS still sounds great by today's standards.

Only after Lossless codecs came out like Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD did Dolby start to admit the benefits of less compression and a lossless format. On the HT Cruise the Dolby marketing Rep admitted to me that DTS did in fact sound better b/c of less compression and better stereo separation for the surround channels. But he said to me that's all a moot point now that TrueHD was here.

He was right, IMO TrueHD and DTS-HD are both similarly good and superior to lossy codecs. I have been in sonic nirvana since......But DTS-HD seemed to gain a lot more traction in Bluray and most of my discs are in fact DTS-HD only or they default to DTS-HD. Ever notice this?

I hope you're right about DTS UHD. I hope it does come on the scene in a year and offers more flexible speaker placement options. I sent out an email to DTS last night to see if they'd be up for an interview.

I feel sorry for those forking over money now for a new Atmos receiver when in a year they may be getting a more flexible implementation of Dolby Atmos and DTS UHD. As much as I like to upgrade b/c I have the ability to do so being in the industry, I can't imagine most enthusiasts have the disposable income and desire to keep upgrading so often.
 
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M

M Lo

Enthusiast
I'm the one guy Tom knows with Front Wide speakers!


I'm not kidding. It really is me :D


I'll tell you the reason I'm a fan of Dolby Atmos, and it's what Tom wrote at the very beginning of this article: Dolby Atmos is a useful new tool for sound mixers.


Object-based mixing is easier than channel-based mixing - especially when we start getting into overhead sounds. 11, 13, or 22 channels just becomes an unweildy mess. I wouldn't want to try and keep all of those individual channels in mind, attempting to steer sounds and pan across that many channels. I seriously doubt most sound mixers want that either. Object-based mixing makes it so much easier.


Not only that, but once the object-based mix is completed, that soundtrack is done! That one mix can be used in any playback system. Still have just traditional 5.1 speaker placement? No problem, the object-based Atmos mix is backwards compatible with that. Have 5.1 plus two speakers somewhere overhead? Great! Go ahead and take advantage of some of those overhead sounds and pans. The mix doesn't need to change. Have 24 speakers all around you and 10 more overhead? Step on up. Yet again, the exact same mix can take advantage of ALL of those speakers. No channel-based mix can come close to that kind of flexibility, so that's the real advantage of Dolby Atmos, in my opinion. Dolby Atmos soundtracks and Blu-rays and streams with Dolby Atmos make all the sense in the world.


So if we end up agreeing that Dolby Atmos soundtracks make a lot of sense on the production and distribution side, it makes the whole effort to bring Dolby Atmos playback systems into our homes a lot easier to accept, in my view. Want to stick with the 5.1 speaker setup you already have? Go right ahead! Dolby Atmos Blu-rays, streams and downloads do not require you to change anything - they'll play just fine on your 5.1 setup. I think that's pretty cool.


But there's some extra information on that Blu-ray disc or in that audio/video stream now. Want to hear that extra info? Well, then you'll need at least 2 more speakers. And if you're willing and able, you could add up to 29 more speakers! But it's totally up to you.


So the issue, to me, isn't the value of Dolby Atmos - it's the way we're being told about it. It's being marketed as the new, better, "you must own this" feature. Of course it is; that's all marketing people know how to do. But I really wish they'd come at it differently.


"Here's a very cool, new tool for sound mixers. It let's them do things with sound that weren't possible before, and it let's them do things they were already doing, but quicker and more easily.


Once they've created their new mix, that one mix can be played back using almost any combination of speakers - from existing 5.1 setups to 34.1 speaker super systems.


And that one mix can be sent to you using existing Blu-ray players and internet streaming services, no updates needed!


You don't even have to buy a new decoder. Your existing Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Digital Plus decoders will play back these new mixes just fine.


But if you'd like to hear some of the fancy new effects that have been made possible by these new tools for sound mixers, you'll need a new decoder and at least 2 new, overhead speaker positions.


Don't want to physically install speakers above you? No problem. We've created new speakers that can simulate having speakers overhead. Don't want to replace your existing speakers? No problem, we also have add-on Modules that simulate the overhead effect.


From there, the more speakers you add, the more precise the new effects can become, but it's all coming from one mix that can do it all.

Pretty cool, huh? :) "


So I get that we don't like feeling as though something new is being shoved down our throats. I happen to enjoy 3D movies, but the marketing was so overly aggressive that a lot of people pushed back and rejected it. I understand that. And I'm saddened to see the same thing happening with Atmos.


There's no need to force Atmos down consumers' throats. Sound mixers love it, and being able to have a single mix that can take full advantage of almost ANY number of speakers makes a tremendous amount of sense. That's efficient and smart.


Dolby Atmos Home Theater systems need to be offered, not shoved. That's where the negative push-back is coming from, as far as I can tell. Me? I just want to hear the stuff that's getting sound mixers excited. If I need to slightly modify my playback system in order to do that, I've got no problem with that. And I'm happy that Dolby is trying to give me as many methods of modifying my playback system with the lowest additional cost possible.


Dolby's efforts are good. The marketing is bad. There shouldn't be any reason for people to be getting mad about Dolby Atmos at Home. No one should be calling it stupid. But we are. So the marketing people REALLY need to look at that. Something is getting majorly lost and twisted in the messaging. And that's a shame.


- Rob H.
Great and enlightening comment, Rob H! :cool:
 
G

genesound

Enthusiast
Someone always comes out with something bigger and better when there is big money in it. It's all about the money. Dolby does the foundational research, and gets it going, then DTS comes along taking the cream in the consumer market. But they get their pound of flesh out of it. There should be a good reason to go see movies in well made theaters anyway.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
When DD and DTS first came on the scene, Dolby was marketing DD as being equivalent in sound quality to DTS. They claimed DD was more efficient and could use more compression. Yet EVERY music DVD I bought sounded superior in DTS (remember the Eagles vs Fleetwood Mac)? The Eagles Hell Freezes over on DTS still sounds great by today's standards.

Only after Lossless codecs came out like Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD did Dolby start to admit the benefits of less compression and a lossless format. On the HT Cruise the Dolby marketing Rep admitted to me that DTS did in fact sound better b/c of less compression and better stereo separation for the surround channels. But he said to me that's all a moot point now that TrueHD was here.

He was right, IMO TrueHD and DTS-HD are both similarly good and superior to lossy codecs. I have been in sonic nirvana since......But DTS-HD seemed to gain a lot more traction in Bluray and most of my discs are in fact DTS-HD only or they default to DTS-HD. Ever notice this?

I hope you're right about DTS UHD. I hope it does come on the scene in a year and offers more flexible speaker placement options. I sent out an email to DTS last night to see if they'd be up for an interview.

I feel sorry for those forking over money now for a new Atmos receiver when in a year they may be getting a more flexible implementation of Dolby Atmos and DTS UHD. As much as I like to upgrade b/c I have the ability to do so being in the industry, I can't imagine most enthusiasts have the disposable income and desire to keep upgrading so often.
DTS-UHD is the first object-based audio format designed for consumer delivery. Object-based audio brings enhanced realism through more accurate spatial rendering, height audio elements, and customizations that adapt to any speaker layout. In addition to rendering object-based audio content, DTS-UHD supports complete compatibility for playback of DTS channel based content, providing the best audio experience from any content featuring DTS audio coding.

DTS-UHD = DTS-UltraHD

DTS-UHD Benefits:
1. Environmentally compensated audio rendering allows consumers to hear audio directionality and dimensionality more precise than ever before possible

2. Object control enables consumers to interact with key objects within the audio mix and adjust them to preference

3. Customized rendering designed for arbitrary speaker layouts enables consumers to adapt their AV system to their own home environment rather than pre-determined speaker layouts

http://www.dts.com/corporate/press-releases/2014/01/dts-demonstrates-dts-uhd-decoder-using-single-chip-audio-dsp-at-consumer-electronics-show.aspx
 
J

joel7156

Audiophyte
Atmos

I agree that this new sound enhancement is useless for home theater. There's enough realism with the current 7.1 systems.
I have an 11.2 system and two of the speakers are are already in the ceiling. Mine sounds great thanks to Yamaha.:)
 
lvb1770

lvb1770

Enthusiast
The fact that I can't go a reasonable distance and hear a movie in Atmos ( I have 9! separate theater locations within a 30 minute drive, and none have Atmos), the closest Atmos theater is 3 hours away, is a major sticking point for me.. Why are theaters not installing Atmos? This, to me, is significant. If you are not waiting for this to play out, like the majority of theaters are - including the wait on DTS-UHD, you may be sorry.
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
The fact that I can't go a reasonable distance and hear a movie in Atmos ( I have 9! separate theater locations within a 30 minute drive, and none have Atmos), the closest Atmos theater is 3 hours away, is a major sticking point for me.. Why are theaters not installing Atmos? This, to me, is significant. If you are not waiting for this to play out, like the majority of theaters are - including the wait on DTS-UHD, you may be sorry.
Cost/Benefit?

Theater speakers are already mounted high so they can already create an enveloping sound.
What percentage of customers have ever heard about Atmos and of those, how many care?

- Rich
 
S

Sevenfeet

Enthusiast
I think the writer has some solid points. I think this will initially be the purvey of customer installers doing new installations in upscale homes and for those who frequent websites like this, AVSForum, and elsewhere. But there are problems...not everyone is ready to throw out their current receiver. I do think they are in a good position to snag some people who were going to upgrade anyway for 4K/HDMI 2.0 compatibility. But at the same time, a lot of those upgrades who have budget constrained were probably looking to spend their disposable income on the receiver itself, or a new 4K set. Extra speakers (2 or 4) will cost at least a few hundred to $1000, not to mention the cost/trouble of ceiling mounting if that's where you want to go. Depending on the ceiling design, you could be spending hundreds or more on the labor from your local custom installer, not to mention fixing any drywall/painting from the install. Unless the theater is in a dedicated room, most wives will have something to say about that.

I applaud Dolby for embracing reflective sound as an alternative since that may be the only solution for a lot of people. But there are risks in that approach too. Then again, reflective sound has made a big splash in recent years with sound bars, and there is no way that a sound bar even knows the dimensions or layout of the room. All it's looking for is a more "diffuse" sound. I would think that most Atmos early adopters will actually try to get the reflection pattern right. But the author is right...some less knowledgeable people left to the own devices will install the speakers all kinds of incorrect ways.
 
O

olc

Enthusiast
It's DOA at my house.

I'm weary of the gimmicks to sell more new equipment. I don't know anyone who uses 3D, or 9.x or even 7.x in their home theater. Of course, I don't know anyone who has the resources to spend a hundred grand on a dedicated HT room and gear.

We use our systems to listen to music, still mostly 2-channel, and to watch movies. If you have a nominal budget for a system (say $10,000 - $20,000) I'd rather put together a pretty decent 5.1 system (I have a processor and amp and better than average speakers) instead of trying to stretch it to god knows how many speakers located wherever, and inferior electronics. For me the focus is on the quality, not the quantity, of what I experience. This is especially important for the 2-channel sound, where the speakers are more important to me. For HT, nobody just sits down and just listens to a movie. Unlike music, who says "that train or that explosion just doesn't sound real to me". What's on the screen distracts from focusing on the sound.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Why buy an AVR with only ATMOS when in 2 years all the AVR will have both ATMOS & DTS-UHD? :D

BTW, we know that DTS-UHD = Ultra HD.

What does ATMOS stand for? They couldn't think of a simpler acronym? :D
 
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