3-way active dedicated stereo listening

Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
Those outlaws seem like they would be too much power for my mid/tweet amps. I like the output for my bass drivers though.

I’ve thought of buying a 5 channel amp such as from Emotiva and just not using a channel. That’ll be a fun time when it’s time to buy the power.


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Even a multi channel amp is still going to put the same amount of power to your mids and tweets as the woofers wouldn't it? What I like about monoblocks for you is if one channel goes out it would be easier to fix/replace (tho I s'pose you would have 1 extra channel to fall back on). Plus the weight of a 5 channel amp...
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Wow! That FR of the reference system in its new home is excellent. As I’d expect!

My comment was perhaps made unfairly in haste. I do know there are some 10’s that are excellent, as you’ve illustrated. For some reason I made an assumption that the drivers in question were of a more pedestrian variety. I’m not so well versed in driver choices for speakers as much as subwoofers so that does leave me showing my backside a little.
Was I not correct in stating that bracing is more for panel resonance, cabinet damping and inertness than the standing wave issues that guiria was talking about?
And yes, I am also one of the subwoofer people. While I do run a house curve, my system is pretty well balanced and definitely not like that trunk rattling crap that rolls up and down my road. Lol
You are correct that bracing is to stop panel vibration, and stop sound radiating to the room from these vibrations. You can actually usually see them on the impedance curve as a small wiggle. The speakers I cited above are really braced along the lines of the B & W matrix. If you look at the 2.1 channel post I have shown the impedance curve, and you can see there are no wiggles from panel resonance.

Damping is to adsorb mid and HF and control the bass resonace. The stuffing and damping of speakers is something of an art.
 
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Guiria

Guiria

Senior Audioholic
Checking out some stats in WinISD pro and inputting the 70 RMS of the speaker it shows the xmax is reached around 42 Hz and skyrockets below 25 hz. Applying a highpass 3rd order filter at 25 Hz will keep the Peerless from bottoming out with deep material. Port velocity with (2) 3" ports is 14.5 m/s. If I made a 2x12.5" slot vent, port velocity would be 8.0 m/s. Right now I'm leaning towards a 14" baffle and box design for the bass driver with a trapezoidal design for the mid/tweet enclosure.

With those specs it seems like a 100W/channel amplifier would be plenty of power and even overdo it if I was actually utilizing all 100W.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Checking out some stats in WinISD pro and inputting the 70 RMS of the speaker it shows the xmax is reached around 42 Hz and skyrockets below 25 hz. Applying a highpass 3rd order filter at 25 Hz will keep the Peerless from bottoming out with deep material. Port velocity with (2) 3" ports is 14.5 m/s. If I made a 2x12.5" slot vent, port velocity would be 8.0 m/s. Right now I'm leaning towards a 14" baffle and box design for the bass driver with a trapezoidal design for the mid/tweet enclosure.

With those specs it seems like a 100W/channel amplifier would be plenty of power and even overdo it if I was actually utilizing all 100W.
You have the wrong driver for your application. It is a high Qts low sensitivity driver. It is for the old acoustic suspension designs. It is a poor speaker vented with ripple before F3, the sealed box has an F3 only slightly higher than vented. But, and this is the point, there is far more bass output sealed than vented.

If you want to use that driver it needs to be in a 1.5 cu.ft. sealed box. The vented and sealed boxes have the same output at 35 Hz, but then the sealed rolls off 12 db per octave and the vented 24 db per octave. So at 20 Hz the sealed has 6 db more output than the vented. Qtc of the sealed enclosure is 0.71.

So it turns out to be a classic acoustic suspension design like the old ARs and others.
 
Guiria

Guiria

Senior Audioholic
You have the wrong driver for your application. It is a high Qts low sensitivity driver. It is for the old acoustic suspension designs. It is a poor speaker vented with ripple before F3, the sealed box has an F3 only slightly higher than vented. But, and this is the point, there is far more bass output sealed than vented.

If you want to use that driver it needs to be in a 1.5 cu.ft. sealed box. The vented and sealed boxes have the same output at 35 Hz, but then the sealed rolls off 12 db per octave and the vented 24 db per octave. So at 20 Hz the sealed has 6 db more output than the vented. Qtc of the sealed enclosure is 0.71.
Assuming we are talking about the 10" Peerless SLS-830688. I show an F3 of 47 Hz sealed vs ported at 30 Hz on Madisound's website, or per your recommendations a roughly 4 cubic foot ported box with a tune of 26 Hz.
Now I'm confused ;)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Assuming we are talking about the 10" Peerless SLS-830688. I show an F3 of 47 Hz sealed vs ported at 30 Hz on Madisound's website, or per your recommendations a roughly 4 cubic foot ported box with a tune of 26 Hz.
Now I'm confused ;)
So was I. The current spec sheet shows a significantly different set of specs from that model I sent to you and what is in the Box Pro data base for that driver. I will have to sort that out tomorrow. I'm not up to it tonight.

I forgot to press the send button last night. The specs have changed some, but the real problem is I miss lead you in my original design. It looks nice but won't sound good.
The Qts and other T/S parameters make it unsuitable for ported application. Those parameters actually scream sealed.

Anyhow the bass output difference is minute and can easily be over come with a little Eq. A cabinet volume of 5 cu.ft for a 10" driver is a tip off we are on the wrong road. So I have modeled sealed and vented for you. You can see that the larger cabinet is not worth it and will not sound as good.



So the sealed version will make a much smaller and more elegant solution, if you still want to use that driver. I should never have done a vented model in the first place.
 
Guiria

Guiria

Senior Audioholic
So the sealed version will make a much smaller and more elegant solution, if you still want to use that driver. I should never have done a vented model in the first place.
I’m glad you were able to catch that (said the resident to his attending) ;)

I’m not opposed to a sealed design and would be much simpler to design. I am not stuck with the peerless driver either, especially since I’m going active for the integration of the bass driver to the midrange. I still want sound quality a priority. I’ve looked at some other drivers before and thought the Peerless still makes a good competitor, even if it is sealed. If you have other suggestions I’m open to that.




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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
I’m glad you were able to catch that (said the resident to his attending) ;)

I’m not opposed to a sealed design and would be much simpler to design. I am not stuck with the peerless driver either, especially since I’m going active for the integration of the bass driver to the midrange. I still want sound quality a priority. I’ve looked at some other drivers before and thought the Peerless still makes a good competitor, even if it is sealed. If you have other suggestions I’m open to that.




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Well the yardstick for 10" drivers is the old KEF B 139. KEF got the T/S parameters right in the sweet spot.

There are plenty available used on eBay and Falcon acoustics now make new exact copies in every way. This is the unit to which I compare all others.

You might want to look at this Volt unit.

Since you are doing an active three way you might want to also look at the Volt midrange dome. This is a naughty knock off of the ATC midrange driver.

This unit of Hi-Vi is also in contention. That is the so called Swan driver as it is the unit for the Swan speaker which has had popularity in the DIY community.

Then of course there is the SEAS magnesium cone Excel driver. That is top budget though.

That is probably the best crop for your proposed project.
 
Guiria

Guiria

Senior Audioholic
Well the yardstick for 10" drivers is the old KEF B 139. KEF got the T/S parameters right in the sweet spot.

There are plenty available used on eBay and Falcon acoustics now make new exact copies in every way. This is the unit to which I compare all others.

You might want to look at this Volt unit.

Since you are doing an active three way you might want to also look at the Volt midrange dome. This is a naughty knock off of the ATC midrange driver.

This unit of Hi-Vi is also in contention. That is the so called Swan driver as it is the unit for the Swan speaker which has had popularity in the DIY community.

Then of course there is the SEAS magnesium cone Excel driver. That is top budget though.
Of those mentioned I think I like the Hi-Vi the most. It has better power handling than the Peerless. Honestly I have this thing about the Falcon and Volt units not having distribution in North America. The SEAS would be overkill for the current application IMO. I searched on Ebay and the KEF units were not available currently. I'll have to spend some time over the next week or two comparing some drivers to see which one I settle in on. Work is going to be busy this month so time spent on it will be here and there.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
On the DSP front, having a DCX 2496, I plan to go with a MiniDSP for my next full active reference project. Much simpler to use, even more adjustment, and they even have an app for it now I believe.

On the woofer front, I plan to use a CSS SDX10 in a 2.5ft3 passive radiator alignment tuned at 21.6hz for my project. Perhaps something to consider? They are good well into the 150hz range and even beyond so can anchor a three-way design nicely.
 
Guiria

Guiria

Senior Audioholic
On the DSP front, having a DCX 2496, I plan to go with a MiniDSP for my next full active reference project. Much simpler to use, even more adjustment, and they even have an app for it now I believe.

On the woofer front, I plan to use a CSS SDX10 in a 2.5ft3 passive radiator alignment tuned at 21.6hz for my project. Perhaps something to consider? They are good well into the 150hz range and even beyond so can anchor a three-way design nicely.
I currently have an SDX10 with dual passive radiators in an 18” cube. Tuned to 23Hz with a 300W plate amp. I did think about the driver. I’d have to integrate the 10” at a lower frequency than the others considered as most of those have an upper frequency range of 1000hz so crossing over around 350 shouldn’t be an issue. You could go driver on the baffle and passive radiators on either side, would look pretty good.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
I currently have an SDX10 with dual passive radiators in an 18” cube. Tuned to 23Hz with a 300W plate amp. I did think about the driver. I’d have to integrate the 10” at a lower frequency than the others considered as most of those have an upper frequency range of 1000hz so crossing over around 350 shouldn’t be an issue. You could go driver on the baffle and passive radiators on either side, would look pretty good.
What mid-woofer are you using? What is the F3 of your planned enclosure alignment for the Mid?
 
Guiria

Guiria

Senior Audioholic
What mid-woofer are you using? What is the F3 of your planned enclosure alignment for the Mid?
I am using this driver. Audax HM130C0 https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-5-woofers/audax-hm130c0-5.25-carbon-fiber-cone-woofer/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAwP3yBRCkARIsAABGiPq_90KN5AOYYT_qK_MLEwfTR5PNW0YDS49csfcc8xTs4de6SrONBYMaArefEALw_wcB

I was planning on a sealed alignment with F3 of 125 Hz. Currently I use the driver in a bass reflex bookshelf tuned to 85hz. I could always port it again and cross the bass driver lower. I plan on bringing my existing two-way passive crossover over to my new build and going active for the mid/bass integration of the 3-way tower.


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annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
I am using this driver. Audax HM130C0 https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-5-woofers/audax-hm130c0-5.25-carbon-fiber-cone-woofer/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAwP3yBRCkARIsAABGiPq_90KN5AOYYT_qK_MLEwfTR5PNW0YDS49csfcc8xTs4de6SrONBYMaArefEALw_wcB

I was planning on a sealed alignment with F3 of 125 Hz. Currently I use the driver in a bass reflex bookshelf tuned to 85hz. I could always port it again and cross the bass driver lower. I plan on bringing my existing two-way passive crossover over to my new build and going active for the mid/bass integration of the 3-way tower.


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I would go with the CSS SDX10 then for the bottom or a Dayton RSS265-HF for a slightly lower cost.
 
Guiria

Guiria

Senior Audioholic
I would go with the CSS SDX10 then for the bottom or a Dayton RSS265-HF for a slightly lower cost.
I feel like the anchor in this 3-way are the Audax mid woofers, I love the sound of them and am hoping to have just as clean low end as I do midrange. Between the drivers I think the smoothest, least distortion, upper frequency response would be the largest deciding factor. I'm still looking to crossover around 300-350 Hz.
I like the power handling of these drivers. The box size of the Dayton is considerably larger than the sdx10 and on paper it digs a little deeper. I've always wanted to try the HF line of Dayton though, perhaps this is the project for them.

I had a pair of titanic 12's in a home theater in a previous house and they did not disappoint.

Current process is decided on the driver and work on my rudimentary sketchup skills for design. I think I'll be cutting wood in late July. That's my goal at least.

A stereo amp would power my mid/high combo well and then use an outlaw mono block for each of the subwoofers.

I already own a Dayton DSP408, got it for Christmas, just sitting in a box, will need some more measurement hardware along the way but that stuff will come easy...building the speaker is what takes all the time.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
I feel like the anchor in this 3-way are the Audax mid woofers, I love the sound of them and am hoping to have just as clean low end as I do midrange. Between the drivers I think the smoothest, least distortion, upper frequency response would be the largest deciding factor. I'm still looking to crossover around 300-350 Hz.
I like the power handling of these drivers. The box size of the Dayton is considerably larger than the sdx10 and on paper it digs a little deeper. I've always wanted to try the HF line of Dayton though, perhaps this is the project for them.

I had a pair of titanic 12's in a home theater in a previous house and they did not disappoint.

Current process is decided on the driver and work on my rudimentary sketchup skills for design. I think I'll be cutting wood in late July. That's my goal at least.

A stereo amp would power my mid/high combo well and then use an outlaw mono block for each of the subwoofers.

I already own a Dayton DSP408, got it for Christmas, just sitting in a box, will need some more measurement hardware along the way but that stuff will come easy...building the speaker is what takes all the time.
If you want some insight on the upper frequencies of the SDX, read the recent review audioholics did of the SDX12. XBL2 motors work very well in this regard as they keep inductance low even into upper frequencies. From whatI have read through reviews and practical application for either of those woofers, using to 300hz is no issue at all.
 
Guiria

Guiria

Senior Audioholic
Looking closer at the CSS SDX10. If I went with the Parts-Express tune recommendation of 27Hz in 1.69 cubic feet I calculated a port size of 10.5"x1.5"x31" with max air velocity being around 15 m/s @ 200W input power. My box outer dimensions would be 36"x12"x14" for the sub.

The box could be a little smaller with the passive radiators, I haven't spec'd that out yet. Is WinISD alpha accurate for PR modeling?
 
Guiria

Guiria

Senior Audioholic
Just ordered two sheets of Baltic birch 3/4” plywood for the project. Should get here Monday. I’m still on the fence about port vs PR. If I went with the outlaw amps I’d be closer to 300W output which models a port velocity a little high.

I think it would look good to have all three drivers on the face of the speaker. Any sonic downsides to doing something like that?


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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Just ordered two sheets of Baltic birch 3/4” plywood for the project. Should get here Monday. I’m still on the fence about port vs PR. If I went with the outlaw amps I’d be closer to 300W output which models a port velocity a little high.

I think it would look good to have all three drivers on the face of the speaker. Any sonic downsides to doing something like that?


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PR speakers are tougher to get right and often need quite a bit of adjustment. Also PR alignments roll off 6th order and not 4th. The roll off is also often uneven. I wold not worry about port air velocity as I doubt you will seldom if ever reach full power.
 

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