3 way “bookshelf “ speakers

[ryanosaur]

Vance Dickason's "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook"

Yes. That and the alden book are my favorites. Easier for me understanding Alden right now, but will be giving read number 2 to the Dickason book soon.

A 4-way speaker system is quite more complex to built and obtaining good results

No doubt... but if I endeavor to that level, it will be a ways down the line, still! (so... 6mos? ... JK!)

I'm in no hurry to replace the Phil 3/BMR rig yet, considering the Phil 3 cabinets just got their final topcoat today!. I figure I've got 3-4 years before I need to start experimenting with a big, full range tower. (Only partially kidding, there. But seriously, I've thought a lot about the challenge to myself of being able to upgrade within 10yrs. Not necessarily upgrading, but being able to if I want, and maybe do better. That's all.)
Shady asked earlier:

My question is once you have the response shape that you want and enough dynamic range to make you happy, what else is there? How do you appreciably upgrade upon that?

The lay answer is, maybe I don't, or more simply still: can't. But I'd like to think it's possible! The beginning of any endeavor... any path worth following, a path which has heart and meaning to the traveler... should be predicated on challenge and reward. Maybe I won't improve on what Dennis and Jim have done. But does that mean I shouldn't try?

Anyway, this is getting far afield from the origin of this thread! I enjoy this discussion and look forward to many, many more! Thank you to all for words of caution, words of widom, etc.

It will always be a great interest to read your future posts relating to your experience with the DIY process.

Thank you! I look forward to sharing!

 

[snakeeyes]

Yes. That and the alden book are my favorites. Easier for me understanding Alden right now, but will be giving read number 2 to the Dickason book soon.


No doubt... but if I endeavor to that level, it will be a ways down the line, still! (so... 6mos? ... JK!)

I'm in no hurry to replace the Phil 3/BMR rig yet, considering the Phil 3 cabinets just got their final topcoat today!. I figure I've got 3-4 years before I need to start experimenting with a big, full range tower. (Only partially kidding, there. But seriously, I've thought a lot about the challenge to myself of being able to upgrade within 10yrs. Not necessarily upgrading, but being able to if I want, and maybe do better. That's all.)
Shady asked earlier:
The lay answer is, maybe I don't, or more simply still: can't. But I'd like to think it's possible! The beginning of any endeavor... any path worth following, a path which has heart and meaning to the traveler... should be predicated on challenge and reward. Maybe I won't improve on what Dennis and Jim have done. But does that mean I shouldn't try?

Anyway, this is getting far afield from the origin of this thread! I enjoy this discussion and look forward to many, many more! Thank you to all for words of caution, words of widom, etc.

Thank you! I look forward to sharing!

Sounds like fun. Not sure it’s wise to modify your expensive ones but ya build some of your own speakers. You may find you have a natural talent at it.

 

[ichigo]

@Good4it what is it about the BMR's you are wanting better? There really is not much out there going to best them under $2K or so. I mean the KEF R3's are a 3-way and are a bit more expensive than the BMR's:

https://www.kefdirect.com/speakers/stereo-speakers/bookshelf-speakers/r3.html

Not really sure if the R3's would be any upgrade or not. Of course, KEF also has the Reference 1's which are also a 3-way design:

https://www.kefdirect.com/speakers/stereo-speakers/bookshelf-speakers/reference-1-ultimate-bookshelf-speaker-pair.html

However, the Reference 1's are $8K a set! I would never be able to afford such speakers, but it sure never hurts to dream. Elac has the Adante AS-61's for $2500 a set. They are also a 3-way Andrew Jones design:

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_970AS61GB/ELAC-Adante-AS-61-Gloss-Black.html

Once again I am not sure if the AS-61's would be much of, if any, an upgrade to the BMR's. However, ordering them from Crutchfield will allow for you to demo and compare them to your BMR's for 60-days. It typically costs $10 to send them back should you not like them. As mentioned, it is going to be hard to best the BMR's under $2-2.5K or so. Best wishes.


Cheers,

Phil

The Kef's are a 3-way but they will image close to a true point-source, almost like a full-range driver because the crossover with the woofer is at 350hz. Some DIY'ers also feel if you can get a 2-way crossover down below 1KHz you are right on the door to imaging like a full ranger because of some psychoacoustic studies that say our localization perception on the vertical axis below 1KHz tends to be much poorer than with higher frequencies.

You might also want to look at the Buchardt S400, which, although not a true 3-way, is a 2-way with a passive radiator. They've been getting rave reviews.

Also the advantage of going with a dome tweeter or coaxial is better vertical axis imaging, as good as the RAAL tweeter is, the vertical axis dispersion isn't ideal. Also some companies like Dynaudio seem to think ribbons aren't worth implementing because sound radiating pattern of a ribbon and cone woofer are so different.

 

[Beave]

The Kef's are a 3-way but they will image close to a true point-source, almost like a full-range driver because the crossover with the woofer is at 350hz. Some DIY'ers also feel if you can get a 2-way crossover down below 1KHz you are right on the door to imaging like a full ranger because of some psychoacoustic studies that say our localization perception on the vertical axis below 1KHz tends to be much poorer than with higher frequencies.

You might also want to look at the Buchardt S400, which, although not a true 3-way, is a 2-way with a passive radiator. They've been getting rave reviews.

Also the advantage of going with a dome tweeter or coaxial is better vertical axis imaging, as good as the RAAL tweeter is, the vertical axis dispersion isn't ideal. Also some companies like Dynaudio seem to think ribbons aren't worth implementing because sound radiating pattern of a ribbon and cone woofer are so different.

Localization on the vertical axis depends on frequency, sure, but doesn't it also depend on driver spacing - and most importantly, on distance from the speaker to the listener?

What is the "ideal" vertical dispersion for a tweeter? Is there such a thing?

Does it matter whether or not the vertical radiating pattern of a tweeter matches the radiating pattern of the woofer at the crossover frequency?

 

[ichigo]

Localization on the vertical axis depends on frequency, sure, but doesn't it also depend on driver spacing - and most importantly, on distance from the speaker to the listener?

What is the "ideal" vertical dispersion for a tweeter? Is there such a thing?

Does it matter whether or not the vertical radiating pattern of a tweeter matches the radiating pattern of the woofer at the crossover frequency?

I think in a middle distance setting, say 2m or so, a 3 way coaxial, or say a 2-way with a compression driver and a low x-o would be ideal. If you are sitting farther away then the differences would matter less; the use case for coaxials IMO is mid distance and nearfield. Once you go farther, a traditional dome and cone is just as good if you have good directivity control--for example, the Revel Ultima Gem2 has some FR issues when measured at a 1m distance and compares poorly in this regard to say the Kef Reference 1. But at >2m, it's measures like an ideal loudspeaker, and shows what a good dome and cone 3-way can do. Of course if you have drivers with mismatched directivity, then it could still be worse than a decent coax.

As far as the tweeter goes, I suppose that depends on use--for example with the Tekton DIs, at a trade show like AXPONA/RMAF, people will notice the vertical dispersion issues because a lot of people are standing, or crouching, or wandering around, but if your use case is in a fixed listening area at the center of the array, then it likely won't be an issue.

 

[JerryLove]

Localization on the vertical axis depends on frequency, sure, but doesn't it also depend on driver spacing - and most importantly, on distance from the speaker to the listener?

Driver spacing shouldn't cause localization.

What is the "ideal" vertical dispersion for a tweeter? Is there such a thing?

Just barely enough to put you on-axis?

The big issue is that off-axis performance fades consistently across the spectrum.

Does it matter whether or not the vertical radiating pattern of a tweeter matches the radiating pattern of the woofer at the crossover frequency?

A difference in dispersion would cause a difference in effective volume. This can be compensated for by the crossover. It's also less of an issue if the crossover slope is shallow.

 

[aarons915]

I agree with others that if you already have the BMR then there isn't much to upgrade to unless you want to spend some real money.

For people who are looking at a great bookshelf in the $1500 dollar range and don't already have something, I honestly think the Polk LSIM 703 is pretty tough to beat, especially since you can get them much cheaper than msrp most of the time.

 

[mdinno]

NHT C3 I would say is one of the best 3 way bookshelf out there. Just look at the tests and it would confirm that.