Sub to compliment powered monitors - 600-700 dollar range.

[j_garcia]

In a small square room though, you WILL get cancellation. Great bass is actually harder to achieve in a room like that IMO - placement and calibration are critical, treatments may be necessary. Despite that, a sub like the XV15 should still have enough output to crush skulls.

 

[shadyJ]

Thanks a lot man.

So from all this, I'm getting that maybe I need to rethink my budget. I need a sub that I can mix true 20 Hz tones at. The kind of electronic music I would produce would require it. I'm not concerned with massive output on this sub as much as I am concerned with consistent, clean output at low frequencies.

Let's look in the price range closer to the VTF-15. I'd be interested to know what its competitors are. I checked the measurement curves on the ones already suggested. The XV15 looked "smoother," but I'm just a noob.
Would it be good to look at that comparison posted earlier of about 30 subs to look for more options? Or should I be focusing on PSA and HSU?

So far this thread has been extremely helpful and educational for me. I can only hope that some other dude finds it helpful as well.

As was mentioned, for a bit more than a VTF15h, you could get a Rythmik FV15 or a PSA XS30. But you don't necessarily need $1k+ subs hit 20 hz, a Hsu VTF2, Outlaw LFM Plus, or Rythmik FV12r could do that, it just isn't going to do it as loud as these larger subs. The XV15 and VTF3 can both hit 16 hz. With room gain you may get decent 20 hz output with the XS15 as well. But I would ask you, are you sure you want to mix 20 hz notes with your music? First of all, for 20 hz to be audible, it has to be pretty loud. Very few people have systems that can playback 20 hz at all. Some systems that try will only push their woofers into big distortion. It's a standard practice for sound engineers to just filter 20 hz and lower frequencies out of the recorded tracks right away, because it isn't audible but it eats up dynamics in the mix like crazy. Here is a 20 hz tone, although chances are, you probably don't have something that can play that back properly and whatever you are hearing, if anything, is likely harmonic distortion, not the real sound. Anyway, I don't really mean to try to talk you out of making music with 20 hz notes, I only want you to be sure you know what you are asking for.

 

[woensl.itis]

So from a production standpoint, is the XV15 more accurate and clean than the Hsu VTF15?
It's between those 2 now. Footprint is not an issue.

The rhytmik looks awesome, but it's like 1300 after shipping? I think that's out of my budget. Same with the XS30. They also look like serious overkill for me right now. Really cool suggestions, though.

 

[Steve81]

So from a production standpoint, is the XV15 more accurate and clean than the Hsu VTF15?

Hard to say a whole lot one way or the other since the bench testing on the VTF-15H wasn't as complete as that for the XV15, along with the fact that the testing that was done carries a good deal of controversy along with it.

 

[woensl.itis]

So after reading more threads here, I have decided that the sub either needs to be sealed or have a sealed option. This narrows the decision down to these subs:

Hsu Research VTF3 mk 4
Hsu Research VTF-15h
PSA XS30
Rhythmik F15h

Am I missing anything else in that price range?
I'm getting the idea that the vented subs might be a little less "punchy" or "quick" to respond?
And my room is tiny, so I don't need HUGE output, do I? Plus the PSA XS30 and the Rhytmik F15h both have SERIOUS output for sealed subs, right?
Both the Hsu's have vented and sealed options, so if I was just showing off my system, I'd probably used the vented mode. Or if I need to mix particularly deep tones. But for ther accuracy when above the low 20's, I'd want the sealed option, right?

Am I learning here? Or am I on the wrong track?

 

[woensl.itis]

After further research, what I am reading is that the XS30 would likely be a better choice for a music system than the F15, as the F15 doesn't have the extension of its bigger, vented brother the FV15. The XS30 may not have as high output under 30 Hz as the FV15, but it will be cleaner. This system is entirely for music and entirely NOT for HT.

Next, cross the VTF3 mk 4 off the list. It's down to XS30 vs. VTF-15h.
I was also thinking the VTF might be a better learning experience for me, as well. I could learn to tell what differences the venting really makes in how the sub sounds.

Any other subs I should be considering?

 

[shadyJ]

One thing that has been said is you are going to get some cancellation in your bass response, this will manifest itself as dips in the frequency range where the sub will be fighting its own reflection so-to-speak. Since you are already at the $1100+ budget range, you might thing about getting two $600 subs like two Hsu VTF2, Rythmik FV12 subs, or Outlaw LFM-1 Plus subs. These companies would probably be up for giving you a small discount for buying duals if you ask. This will help smooth out the frequency response. Without room correction, you are going to be facing peaks and dips, and two subs will go a long way to fighting a FR that looks like a roller coaster. You may want to add some form of equalization in the future for a flat frequency response. You could also just get one of these less expensive subs now and get another one if you find a lumpy FR. Even one of these $600 will pound pretty hard in a 1500 cubic foot room. By the way, whatever sub you get, in order to determine how uneven the frequency response is, you are really going to want an SPL meter. I strongly recommend getting one, especially since you are doing sound production.

One more thing, I don't know if you know about this already, but one fun web based music music tool is Audiotool. Click on that blue button in the upper right hand corner that says "launch app" and start making some tunes (or alternatively, just click here). I don't know how much experience you have with softsynths, but you may want to go through the tutorials if you don't know how to set up the modules. Anyway, its a pretty great synthesizer and sequencer, considering its a free web based app! If you are just getting started making electronic music, I know some other great free softsynths, let me know if you are interested. I would strongly recommend getting to grips with the simple synths before throwing down hundreds of dollars for something like Reason or Omnisphere.

 

[Steve81]

I'm getting the idea that the vented subs might be a little less "punchy" or "quick" to respond?

Not necessarily, although some ported subs exhibit a bit of ringing at tune, and a sub with flat FR outdoors might have a bottom heavy response in a small room such as yours. The latter issue can be ameliorated with a bit of EQ.

And my room is tiny, so I don't need HUGE output, do I?

That's up to you and the levels you intend to mix at. I'd expect a XS-15 would provide adequate amounts of output in your room, even down low, but it's hard to say definitively without hammering out the details.

Plus the PSA XS30 and the Rhytmik F15h both have SERIOUS output for sealed subs, right?

I wouldn't be complaining if I had either of them.

 

[woensl.itis]

One thing that has been said is you are going to get some cancellation in your bass response, this will manifest itself as dips in the frequency range where the sub will be fighting its own reflection so-to-speak. Since you are already at the $1100+ budget range, you might thing about getting two $600 subs like two Hsu VTF2, Rythmik FV12 subs, or Outlaw LFM-1 Plus subs. These companies would probably be up for giving you a small discount for buying duals if you ask. This will help smooth out the frequency response. Without room correction, you are going to be facing peaks and dips, and two subs will go a long way to fighting a FR that looks like a roller coaster. You may want to add some form of equalization in the future for a flat frequency response. You could also just get one of these less expensive subs now and get another one if you find a lumpy FR. Even one of these $600 will pound pretty hard in a 1500 cubic foot room. By the way, whatever sub you get, in order to determine how uneven the frequency response is, you are really going to want an SPL meter. I strongly recommend getting one, especially since you are doing sound production.

One more thing, I don't know if you know about this already, but one fun web based music music tool is Audiotool. Click on that blue button in the upper right hand corner that says "launch app" and start making some tunes (or alternatively, just click here). I don't know how much experience you have with softsynths, but you may want to go through the tutorials if you don't know how to set up the modules. Anyway, its a pretty great synthesizer and sequencer, considering its a free web based app! If you are just getting started making electronic music, I know some other great free softsynths, let me know if you are interested. I would strongly recommend getting to grips with the simple synths before throwing down hundreds of dollars for something like Reason or Omnisphere.

The college I went to supplied me with ProTools, Reason, Logic, Digital Performer.
The next software I will be getting is Ableton.

So 2 powered subs eh? That or one of my previously listed options. I like the idea of getting one now and one later. Am I right in thinking that one of these $600 subs is still going to kick the Polk DSWPro660's arse?

 

[Steve81]

Am I right in thinking that one of these $600 subs is still going to kick the Polk DSWPro660's arse?

I'd expect so, particularly down deep.

 

[woensl.itis]

So maybe I really should go with the VTF 15h? Or the VTF3 mk 4? I can get another later if I need the output, right? Or to remediate the problem of cancellation. I do plan on putting some foam on the walls or something, maybe.
Or for accuracy purposes should I be looking at something sealed with less options?

Just to give you an idea of the kind of electronic music I'm listening to (where my influences come from) here you go:

Tipper - Tripping The Light Fantastic - YouTube
Tipper - Scabbler (2012) - YouTube
Tipper - Cuckoo - YouTube
Mr. Bill - Router by Mr Bill on SoundCloud - Hear the world’s sounds
Vibesquad - Shine

And then I also listen to jazz a lot. But that will require less from my sub.

Looking at the measurements on their website, the PSA XS15 doesn't have enough ooommph under 40 Hz. The XS30 does, but that's a 1200 sub. If porting isn't going to make that much of a difference for me, let me know now. i am getting the idea that it will, though.
It's looking more and more like the HSU research stuff would be a better option.

Tell me more about the SVS and Outlaw options?

Also, I wanna thank you guys again for all the help.

 

[Steve81]

So maybe I really should go with the VTF 15h? Or the VTF3 mk 4? I can get another later if I need the output, right?

They're certainly not bad choices, especially given the multiple tuning options to help blend them into your room.

Or for accuracy purposes should I be looking at something sealed with less options?

As mentioned, I'd still say the XS-15 would be a good fit; it doesn't have as much raw output capability at 20Hz, but in a small room, I'd expect it should do quite well even down low.

Tell me more about the SVS and Outlaw options?

The only thing that would be interesting with respect to what's already been mentioned in either lineup that's still somewhere near your price bracket would be the PC12-Plus. It's got no shortage of power, but more importantly it's got multiple tuning modes, built in PEQ, room compensation controls (to help scrub off excessive low end gain), etc. It isn't cheap though, and it won't fix problems with room modes. For a 15x15 room music setup, it's probably gross overkill.

 

[j_garcia]

Sealed WILL get you down into the teens, you just won't feel it like you will with a vented sub. Even my old SVS PB-10 had decent output at 18Hz and dropped off at 16Hz. Any of the subs with variable tuning will be your best bet to dial in your preference = best of both worlds, otherwise just pick one of the big guys that is right for the budget - I would expect very few people to say "I need to upgrade from this FV15 or XV15".

 

[woensl.itis]

So after looking at the Rythmik subs, I'd have to say they are both definitely on the table.
They look to have much smoother FR than the Hsu subs.

The F12 looks like it might be a fantastic option. Excellent performance down to and below 20 Hz. Sealed.
The FV15 also looks fantastic. Less output in the low extremes than the F12. Still extremely smooth response.
The XV15 is also still on the table. Though it doesn't have options to tune it to my room.

When compared to the Hsu research subs, do the Rythmik's appear more accurate...cleaner?

I also looked at the LFM plus, but I'm willing to pay more, and i think I can get a better sub.

The F12 is a 12". Will I need to upgrade to a 15" at some point? Or will i just be able to get another F12 to pair up with?
The only Hsu model I am thinking of getting now is the VTF-15h. What would be the downside to getting the 15h over the F12? What about the downside of getting the F12 over the VTF-15?

Is the venting on a sub I get really going to make it that "flabby" or make it "ring" to the point that I get bad mixes?

 

[shadyJ]

The Outlaw subs are designed by Hsu. They are very similar, the LFM-1 Plus is like Outlaw's VTF2 and the LFM-1 EX is like their version of the VTF3. The Hsus have a couple more features than the Outlaw subs, like the Q control. SVS have the NSD subs, which have good extension but relatively poor mid bass output with respect to the Hsu, PSA, and Outlaw subs. SVS's Plus and Ultra subs do quite a bit better, but for the same money you can get a more powerful Rythmik or PSA sub.

Also, wall foam isn't going to help with cancellation, no room treatment that I know of will. The only thing that will help is good placement, equalization, and multiple subs.

 

[j_garcia]

Where you are comparing them, regardless of those readings and charts, the F12 will not perform as well in terms of what you actually "hear" in room that low, but then we are also talking about WELL below the audible range. I've heard the F12 and took some in room readings of it. When listening, it does not sound like it is hitting 16Hz, but the SPL meter showed it was - that is because it is sealed. The FV15 will have much more tactile response down low as it is tuned very low. The F12 will easily handle a larger room than what we're talking about.

My former sub was a single 15" in a large sonotube custom built, using a Rythmik amp, tuned to 17.5Hz with a subsonic filter at 14Hz. It had much more authority below 20Hz than my current Empire, but the Empire easily eclipses it above ~30Hz and does it much more cleanly.

 

[woensl.itis]

The F12 really isn't that much money.
It looks REALLY nice. Do you think that would be a good option over the Hsu VTF-15h?
I could pair it with another F12 later on. I think for my room size the F12 is gonna have enough output, right? And according to their measurements, it can easily produce a 20Hz tone, and even goes down to producing a real 14 Hz tone. Am I reading that right?

Since I'm using primarily for mixing and production purposes, do you think the higher accuracy in the mid-bass will be most beneficial over some of the higher output at extreme lows offered by vented subs (such as the FV15 or XV15) ?

 

[shadyJ]

So after looking at the Rythmik subs, I'd have to say they are both definitely on the table.
They look to have much smoother FR than the Hsu subs.

The F12 looks like it might be a fantastic option. Excellent performance down to and below 20 Hz. Sealed.
The FV15 also looks fantastic. Less output in the low extremes than the F12. Still extremely smooth response.
The XV15 is also still on the table. Though it doesn't have options to tune it to my room.

When compared to the Hsu research subs, do the Rythmik's appear more accurate...cleaner?

I also looked at the LFM plus, but I'm willing to pay more, and i think I can get a better sub.

The F12 is a 12". Will I need to upgrade to a 15" at some point? Or will i just be able to get another F12 to pair up with?
The only Hsu model I am thinking of getting now is the VTF-15h. What would be the downside to getting the 15h over the F12? What about the downside of getting the F12 over the VTF-15?

Is the venting on a sub I get really going to make it that "flabby" or make it "ring" to the point that I get bad mixes?

I take it you are looking at Rythmik's website charts. I don't think you are quite interpreting them correctly. The F12 isn't going to have any serious output down to or below 20 hz. It's frequency response can go relatively flat that low in a certain configuration, but not at a serious output level. The FV15 will have a lot more deep bass output than the F12, a ton more. Also, those charts are considerably smoothed. If you want an accurate FR measurement, data-bass.com is the place to go. Home Theater Shack also had a bunch of great measurements, but they have been taken down for some reason. As for the F12 vs the VTF15h, they are two very different subs. The VTF15h will have waaay more output across the board. The F12 will probably be a bit more accurate. Also, the venting on your sub isn't going to hurt your mixes unless its poorly implemented. None of the manufacturers here are going to have sloppy port designs, I wouldn't worry about any of them affecting your mixes. What will potentially affect your mixes is room nulls and cancellation, which is why you need to get a SPL meter.

 

[woensl.itis]

Okay, big help thanks.

So is it possible that the best option for me is to get the VTF-15h?
Or maybe I should go with the XV15? It seems to perform better across the board.

 

[j_garcia]

Since I'm using primarily for mixing and production purposes, do you think the higher accuracy in the mid-bass will be most beneficial over some of the higher output at extreme lows offered by vented subs (such as the FV15 or XV15) ?

Yes, but as mentioned, none of these subs are going to disappoint in terms of "quality of bass" IMO, there are just tradeoffs for somewhat cleaner vs output/extension.

I take it you are looking at Rythmik's website charts. I don't think you are quite interpreting them correctly. The F12 isn't going to have any serious output down to or below 20 hz. It's frequency response can go relatively flat that low in a certain configuration, but not at a serious output level. The FV15 will have a lot more deep bass output than the F12, a ton more. Also, those charts are considerably smoothed. If you want an accurate FR measurement, data-bass.com is the place to go. Home Theater Shack also had a bunch of great measurements, but they have been taken down for some reason. As for the F12 vs the VTF15h, they are two very different subs. The VTF15h will have waaay more output across the board. The F12 will probably be a bit more accurate. Also, the venting on your sub isn't going to hurt your mixes unless its poorly implemented. None of the manufacturers here are going to have sloppy port designs, I wouldn't worry about any of them affecting your mixes. What will potentially affect your mixes is room nulls and cancellation, which is why you need to get a SPL meter.

Pretty much what I just said Those particular charts don't exactly show what you are going to hear and the FV15 is going to have quite a bit more output pretty much everywhere. It is still a servo sub which will keep it pretty clean for a vented sub.