Sub to compliment powered monitors - 600-700 dollar range.

[woensl.itis]

I approve.

 

[woensl.itis]

I'm going with the VTF-3 Mk4. Almost positive.

 

[woensl.itis]

I just checked out REL and Vandersteen for subs. Anyone know about these guys? From what I could tell, they are both going to be out of my price range, and I'd be paying some for the aesthetics.

However, as they were recommended to me on another site, I am interested to see what your opinions are on their use as a viable solution for my mixing/production needs.

 

[shadyJ]

Vandersteen and REL are not on the level of Rythmik, Hsu, PSA, etc. Their subs are basically harmonic distortion generators. You will never see them submit their subs for review to anyone who does measurements or who exhibits the slightest amount of objectivity. Here is some measurements of some REL subs, here and here, they are hilariously awful for $1.5k+ subs. My recommendation is stay far away.

 

[woensl.itis]

HA! Thanks shady.

Kinda what I was going to assume, but I didn't want to post another assumption on THIS forum.

So basically what i said, you're paying for a Home Theater only sub that is pricey and looks really cool.

however, tht VTF-15H looks SEXY.

What is the big draw to companies like REL and Vandersteen? Vandersteen says on their forum that they are ALL about music reproduction and fidelity. Not just about loud. Should I believe this to simply be marketing doing its job?

 

[woensl.itis]

My recommendation is stay far away.

Will do. I'll just let REl stay on the other side of the Atlantic, then. hehehehe.


Another thing:

I found it incredibly hard to find a listed price on their website. I also found it hard to find their specs or measurements (didn't find ANY real measurements). Also didn't find many good reviews. Thanks jeebus for sites like this one.

Of course, it still comes down to having heard them, and I have not. But for my first real purchase, i think I'm gonna go with the Hsu. The Q control seems absolutely necessary (though for my purposes I will probably have it set much lower than higher).

STILL CAN"T DECIDE DUAL VTF2's or single VTF-15H!!!!


I think I'm leaning more towards the 15 now, because I thought about it and decided that it would also be a good opportunity for me to trudge through some learning experiences in bass set-up and management. Do you all agree with this view?

 

[twoeyedbob]

Vandersteen and REL are not on the level of Rythmik, Hsu, PSA, etc. Their subs are basically harmonic distortion generators. You will never see them submit their subs for review to anyone who does measurements or who exhibits the slightest amount of objectivity. Here is some measurements of some REL subs, here and here, they are hilariously awful for $1.5k+ subs. My recommendation is stay far away.

I'm aware that REL ain't well advertised in the u.s but they are still well respected over here...and were extremely well regarded,
Certainly up until a few years back.
The second review posted here was from 7 or 8 yrs ago...
It also coincides with two 95%/5star reviews (for the same product) One from techradar.
I realise they don't offer particularly good value..in fact ,
i suspect they aren't really designed for the american market ,large /open plan room's etc
but
I dont think this level of criticism is justified.

Sent from my HTC Vision using Tapatalk 2

 

[shadyJ]

They might have an MSRP on their site, but really they give the dealers latitude about pricing, so the price is pretty variable. Some companies like Vandersteen and B&W are more about speakers than subs, and many of their customers are two channel purists who turn their noses at subs, so subwoofers for them are an over-priced afterthought, almost like an accessory. You also have to remember in Europe much of the housing is smaller, they don't have as much big sprawling plots like much of the USA, so floor space is at a premium and loud subs are not good for close neighbors.

As for the Hsus, honestly you would probably learn more about bass management from having to deal with two subs rather than one. You would learn about the effects of optimal placement and room smoothing and phase interference with multiples. I don't want to push you to double VTF2s very hard because you seem to be gravitating to the VTF15h, I'm just giving you my suggestion. Either choice is a winner. Also I think you might end up with a high Q because of room gain. Like I said before, to learn for real, you will need an SPL meter at the very least. Here is an inexpensive radio shack clone with an RCA output jack, this can be used with REW if you ever wanted to dig into REW. REW is what to use when you want totally flat FR, but you need to get an external EQ and have your computer set it up. I would see how far you can get with placement or dual subs before you turn to REW, its not the most accessible software. You won't have the advantage of automatic room correction that comes with many receivers, so you are going to have to spend a little bit of time dialing the subwoofer or subwoofers through trial and error. Two subs would make it easier to achieve a flatter frequency response than one.

 

[shadyJ]

I'm aware that REL ain't well advertised in the u.s but they are still well respected over here...and were extremely well regarded,
Certainly up until a few years back.
The second review posted here was from 7 or 8 yrs ago...
It also coincides with two 95%/5star reviews (for the same product) One from techradar.
I realise they don't offer particularly good value..in fact ,
i suspect they aren't really designed for the american market ,large /open plan room's etc
but
I dont think this level of criticism is justified.

Sent from my HTC Vision using Tapatalk 2

Two eyed Bob, I don't mean to sound argumentative or contentious, but I really hope REL subs has improved since those measurements were made. For the price, the distortion is unforgivable, and it start compressing at a relatively low output level. I realize the street price is going to be much lower than the MSRP, but still, Emotiva and SVS have small subs that do much better at much less than half the price. Don't take offense, but in my opinion, REL subs are more about ornamentation than performance. Their websites don't have much specifics about the subs' specs or performance, but they do tell you how many coats of lacquer some of them have.

 

[woensl.itis]

I'd like to put forth that I am not buying a sub for a large. sprawling, superfluous american home, either.
I don't think any of this had to do with nationality. My comment about "across the atlantic" was merely facetious. I'm just trying to find the best sub for music production in my price range, and the subs from REL don't seem to be built for that purpose(at least not within my budget). I couldn't care less about looks at this point, either.

Checked out the UL15, too. What a beast. Wish I could afford it.

So, shady, how low do you think I'm gonna be able to get a pair of VTF2's? 16Hz really isn't NECESSARY, but if I decide I want to start mixing dubstep (noobstep xD), I would like to get some low wobbles in there.
I like the 15, but it is also a beast, and now having seen the ULS15, I am thinking that when i want to spend that kind of money, I will just dish out the extra 100-200 for the ULS15 over the VTF-15H. So while I was pretty much ready to dish it out and buy the 15h, I think I'm just gonna shelf that for now.

Also, I shouldn't be considering a VTF3 Mk4? And pairing it up later? Over the VTF2's? Maybe my best bet right now is to sell my Polk DSW Pro660i, buy a single VTF2 mk4, see how that works out, and save up for a UL-15 for a future, seriously serious recording/production rig? How would teh VTF2 compare to the 660i? From just a measurement standpoint, it looked like the Polk 660i was more in line with the REL.

I know I'm being indecisive. Probably frustratingly so.

 

[twoeyedbob]

Two eyed Bob, I don't mean to sound argumentative or contentious, but I really hope REL subs has improved since those measurements were made. For the price, the distortion is unforgivable, and it start compressing at a relatively low output level. I realize the street price is going to be much lower than the MSRP, but still, Emotiva and SVS have small subs that do much better at much less than half the price. Don't take offense, but in my opinion, REL subs are more about ornamentation than performance. Their websites don't have much specifics about the subs' specs or performance, but they do tell you how many coats of lacquer some of them have.

I really cant comment too much on modern rel's...
I've got the strata 5,the sealed version of the tested storm 5

It just seem's odd to me that they tested so poorly...while
Simulaneously being very well reviewed..and generally very well regarded....over here
Bit of a discrepancy altogether..
They were ,afaik ,originally designed to work well,first and foremost in (very tightly controlled bass) audiophile music system's...for the british market...Smaller room's ect
Maybe they were just never designed to do the same job as a
Dual 18 inch leviathan...?

As it stands...i'm delighted with mine..although it probably
Is'nt the best sub for big budget blockbuster's...
It just seamlessly blends in..without drawing attention
To itself...
Perfectly capable of pressurising my 4.5 *4.5 m room when needs must..
Whether i'd be as happy ,if i'd paid £1000 is another matter
,i got mine pre-owned for £300
Sent from my HTC Vision using Tapatalk 2

 

[shadyJ]

The ULS-15 is a great sub, I have two of them. It doesn't have the output of the VTF15h though, its more about manageable size and clean sound. It's output is more on the level of the VTF3, although it won't equal the VTF3's deep bass output from 30 hz on down. But no sealed 15" is going to equal the VTF3's output from 30 hz down, and that is just testament to the efficiency of massive porting in a big box.

A pair of VTF2's will get to 19, maybe 18 hz pretty strongly. You are rubbing up against the ability of human hearing to perceive low frequencies here, so I think it really should be enough. Even the deepest dubstep doesn't have bass lines that go that low. As for the Polk 660i, it's Polk's best sub, I wouldn't be surprised if it could almost equal the mid bass output of the VTF2, but it won't dig as deep. It likely isn't as bad as that little REL from the Home Theater Shack measurements. I would sell it.

 

[shadyJ]

Perfectly capable of pressurising my 4.5 *4.5 m room when needs must..
Whether i'd be as happy ,if i'd paid £1000 is another matter
,i got mine pre-owned for £300

For 300 quid, I don't think its bad. The version that HTS tested was $2k, which is an absurd price, of course, but you have to wonder about the sucker who pays full MSRP.

 

[woensl.itis]

Yea, well polk hasn't gone strong into the sub market, yet, from what I can tell. They used to have a bigger line, I believe, but cut some of the MicroPros. Boy are those loud. Not really what I'm looking for, though.

Also, in response to your comments about the output of the ULS-15, I didn't expect it to be as loud as the VTF's. However, it looks "punchier" or "cleaner". Is that something to expect, in general, from a sealed sub? Also, by the time I figure out how to set up a room and I finally get the funds for the ULS-15, I'll be able to tune to room to get more out of the low end on that sub, right?

So, if I can sell the 660i for around 400, (which is a good deal in my book), and then pick up the VTF2 for around 550 (plus shipping), that's a wortwhile upgrade for the time being, right? 200 bux, and i get a VTF2?

 

[shadyJ]

Also, in response to your comments about the output of the ULS-15, I didn't expect it to be as loud as the VTF's. However, it looks "punchier" or "cleaner". Is that something to expect, in general, from a sealed sub? Also, by the time I figure out how to set up a room and I finally get the funds for the ULS-15, I'll be able to tune to room to get more out of the low end on that sub, right?

In your room, you probably won't have to figure out how to get more out of the low end of a sub. In fact, you will probably have to figure out how to get less out of the low end of a sub, at least if you want linearity and neutrality. Your room is likely to give the low end a boost as it is, that is why the Q control on the VTFs might come in handy for you, it can roll off the low frequencies in case your room gain causes the lows to absolutely dominate the mid and upper bass frequencies. You won't want any part of the bass frequency to outweigh any other part as a music producer. The ULS-15 has a similar feature called the ULF Trim, this is a knob that raises the roll off in case your room is boosting the low frequencies too much.

So, if I can sell the 660i for around 400, (which is a good deal in my book), and then pick up the VTF2 for around 550 (plus shipping), that's a wortwhile upgrade for the time being, right? 200 bux, and i get a VTF2?

I can't really say in all honesty, I have never heard a 660i and don't know how it performs. I would much rather have a VTF2 personally, but what I am afraid of is you might be placing too much importance on the really low frequencies and are bound to be disappointed when you realize how impractical that sort of bass really is. At least the VTF subs have variable tuning so when you realize that sub 20 hz bass isn't all its cracked up to be, you can trade those deep frequencies for more bass above the mid 20s where it counts for a lot more. I suppose $200 is worth it for you to go for a sub that extends low if only to see what subsonic bass offers

 

[woensl.itis]

Okay. So I will give it a little more thought and give an update. I guess maybe I should consider the VTF-3 if I'm going to sell the 660i.

You may be right about me putting too much importance on the subsonic stuff. Only thing is I've never had a sub that does that sort of thing, so I kinda NEED the experience. Gotta train the ol' ears again.

Thanks for all the help thus far. I hope other peeps reading this thread recognize how helpful you've been, as well (i notice your bar is in the red just like mine).

 

[Steve81]

Vandersteen and REL are not on the level of Rythmik, Hsu, PSA, etc. Their subs are basically harmonic distortion generators. You will never see them submit their subs for review to anyone who does measurements or who exhibits the slightest amount of objectivity. Here is some measurements of some REL subs, here and here, they are hilariously awful for $1.5k+ subs. My recommendation is stay far away.

Good to see the images are back up there. They were MIA for a while (for me at least).

 

[Steve81]

Maybe they were just never designed to do the same job as a
Dual 18 inch leviathan...?

To offer a couple pennies, the issues presented in the linked measurements go beyond simply not offering much output for the $$$. Both REL models tested exhibit significant top end roll off which makes them unsuitable for pairing with smaller speakers that need a higher XO point; this is interesting to me, since I'd expect a small, decor friendly sub more likely to be paired with small, decor friendly speakers. Then there's the matter of distortion; neither are particularly clean in this aspect, but the R305 takes things a step further, with the distortion below 60Hz being dominated by high order components.

If I were spending big bucks on a sealed sub, I'd personally expect something a lot closer to this in performance. Amusingly, the sub tested isn't natively a sealed sub, though I'd expect similar performance from the SB13-Ultra and it's predecessor, the SB13-Plus.

 

[woensl.itis]

But damn.... that VTF3 just LOOKS good (imo)

 

[shadyJ]

Lol, it looks alright.. HERE are a couple of real lookers:
KEF Reference 209 ($16k)

Funk Audio 18.0 ($3.2k+)