Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?

[Irvrobinson]

Hi
I have been in the A/V business since 1977.There has always been a difference in sound between components and cables and always will be. The best way to find out is to change one component or cable in your system with the one in question without changing anything else. Past all the details that will let you know.

I think I have a new product idea. It's a software GPS for internet forums. As you're typing the software analyzes what you post, and if it finds your perspectives are completely unaligned with the forum you're posting on, it recommends a forum with better alignment. In this case the GPS would point you at Audiogon. On the other hand, I go over there occasionally to entertain myself... is that why you posted this here?

 

[DD66000]

Ah yes, the audiophile capacitors-sound-different proposition. To be honest, I've always thought this ranked right up there with the cable lie. What are a capacitor's electrical parameters that yield an open, airy sound, versus sound that is merely dynamic?

Cables...make a difference...I say no.

But in a XO if a .01uf polypropylene is placed in parallel to the larger cap, the output becomes more dynamic.
If a .005 styrene is in the HF in the same manner, it opens up. There has been many a thread of such and biased XOs over at Lansing Heritage.
Greg Timbers, JBL Chief Engineer, who has even commented about such circuits and are used in the better JBLs.
Greg would know the actual answer to the question you ask. I can't state why, just know it does, as I built XOs that are both Biased and By-pass.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

... if a .01uf polypropylene is placed in parallel to the larger cap, the output becomes more dynamic. If a .005 styrene is in the HF in the same manner, it opens up.

Damn. Okay I take it back. Let's go back to drugs and booze.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Cables...make a difference...I say no.

But in a XO if a .01uf polypropylene is placed in parallel to the larger cap, the output becomes more dynamic.
If a .005 styrene is in the HF in the same manner, it opens up. There has been many a thread of such and biased XOs over at Lansing Heritage.
Greg Timbers, JBL Chief Engineer, who has even commented about such circuits and are used in the better JBLs.
Greg would know the actual answer to the question you ask. I can't state why, just know it does, as I built XOs that are both Biased and By-pass.

I don't know what the difference between "open" and "more dynamic" is. Using bypass caps could change the resulting electrical parameters, but I'm not sure why polypropylene caps should be different than polystyrene caps at audio frequencies.

As for certain people in influential positions claiming to hear differences... Jack Renner, a co-founder of Telarc, and IMHO one of the most talented recording engineers ever, used to claim he heard audible improvements by rewiring his studio monitors with Monster Cable, or whatever he was using at the time. My respect for Renner is unabated, but it did tell me that self-delusion can afflict the best and most capable of us, and we shouldn't let peoples' positions create a halo effect that encourages us to follow ill-conceived advice.

 

[jinjuku]

Cables...make a difference...I say no.

But in a XO if a .01uf polypropylene is placed in parallel to the larger cap, the output becomes more dynamic.
If a .005 styrene is in the HF in the same manner, it opens up. There has been many a thread of such and biased XOs over at Lansing Heritage.
Greg Timbers, JBL Chief Engineer, who has even commented about such circuits and are used in the better JBLs.
Greg would know the actual answer to the question you ask. I can't state why, just know it does, as I built XOs that are both Biased and By-pass.

One of these days my next system will be all actively managed

 

[PENG]

It doesn't say anything at all. For speakers, there is a clearly a difference. For amplifiers operating in their intended design parameters, it says absolutley nothing unless backed up by a blind listening tests where there is a clear choice to the preference of one amp to another.

Are you beating the dead horse? You can't, or it is infinitely difficult to change someone's opinion. DD is offering an opinion I assume, not necessarily facts, we are doing basically the same albeit may be tilting a little more to the facts side, just MO.

 

[Grador]

Cables...make a difference...I say no.

But in a XO if a .01uf polypropylene is placed in parallel to the larger cap, the output becomes more dynamic.
If a .005 styrene is in the HF in the same manner, it opens up. There has been many a thread of such and biased XOs over at Lansing Heritage.
Greg Timbers, JBL Chief Engineer, who has even commented about such circuits and are used in the better JBLs.
Greg would know the actual answer to the question you ask. I can't state why, just know it does, as I built XOs that are both Biased and By-pass.

So if i'm reading this correctly are you saying that changing component values in a crossover can change how a crossover works? I think this can be agreed upon, but how does this pertain to amplifiers?

 

[mtrycrafts]

The Behringer A500 comes to mind as having a slightly rolled off top end (-0.6dB @ 20kHz), with 1 watt into an 8 ohm resistive load. One wonders what might happen to the FR if those conditions change, i.e. trying to drive a speaker with something akin to this impedance profile at higher volumes:

0.6 dB??? Can you hear 20 kHz? Do you know if one, anyone can detect a shift of .6 dB at 20 kHz vs one that is 0.0 dB at 20 kHz? Do you know what the JND is at 16 kHz for that matter???

 

[mtrycrafts]

I'm assuming you got that -0.6db from the Audio Critic's test report, which is out of date. The newer version of this amp has completely different specs. Nonetheless, one point for you, although I doubt a departure from flatness like that would be audible for most of us, even some young squirt like Monkish54. And static frequency response measurements don't necessarily tell you a lot about how an amp's output will change with a complex load.

But that Audio Critic article also used a test protocol called power cubed method loaded it down to 1 Ohms and phase shifts of 60 deg +/- did better that a Brystone they also mentioned.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Are you beating the dead horse? You can't, or it is infinitely difficult to change someone's opinion. DD is offering an opinion I assume, not necessarily facts, we are doing basically the same albeit may be tilting a little more to the facts side, just MO.

Oh, but some dead horses have miraculous properties and never know when they are really dead.

 

[DD66000]

Damn. Okay I take it back. Let's go back to drugs and booze.

You don't have to take my word, look it up. Go to Lansing Heritage and do a search. Or even do a Google search.
From what I remember reading a decade ago (when built my Biased/by-pass XOs) there were other speaker companies besides JBL using the same technology.
And I was not applying that tech to some speakers I was not familiar with....but speakers I had for over two decades. And there was an improvement.
Although not cheap...$300/pr for L212 just for the XO components...$500/pr for the newer PT800. Its all about the caps as far as the Biased networks that jumps the cost. Caps that are twice the size as the originals and twice as many (for series pairs) that are needed to be able to apply a 9vdc charge.

I can tell you the how and why the Bias network works, but I forget the tech issues for the poly by-pass caps, other than they need to be much smaller size, than the main caps.

 

[Irvrobinson]

But that Audio Critic article also used a test protocol called power cubed method loaded it down to 1 Ohms and phase shifts of 60 deg +/- did better that a Brystone they also mentioned.

I'm aware of the PowerCube test. It's actually pretty cool, but the Behringer amp that was tested also demonstrated higher noise and distortion other amps, not to mention that the PowerCube measured for it was nothing to brag about at all. But like I said, the latest model is completely different, and might produce better results.

As an aside, in a lot of ways, IMO, we're living in the golden age of audio amplifiers. Really good, powerful amps are available at reasonable prices, sometimes remarkably low prices. There used to be a lot crap on the market just ten years ago.

 

[Steve81]

0.6 dB??? Can you hear 20 kHz? Do you know if one, anyone can detect a shift of .6 dB at 20 kHz vs one that is 0.0 dB at 20 kHz? Do you know what the JND is at 16 kHz for that matter???

I don't think I ever claimed it was audible; an example of a solid state amplifier that wasn't ruler flat to 20kHz was asked for, and I provided what I knew of.

But that Audio Critic article also used a test protocol called power cubed method loaded it down to 1 Ohms and phase shifts of 60 deg +/- did better that a Brystone they also mentioned.

The Power Cube tells us how much voltage an amplifier can deliver into a variety of loads, yes; however, it only does so using 1kHz bursts.

 

[KEW]

Well, the brain won't hear anything if the ears are dysfunctional.

Guess we need both.

I hear voices telling me to buy more speakers, but plugging my ears won't make it stop.
The brain can do the job by itself under the right circumstances!

 

[3db]

Oh, but some dead horses have miraculous properties and never know when they are really dead.

LMFAO.. Thats too funny.

 

[3db]

Cables...make a difference...I say no.

But in a XO if a .01uf polypropylene is placed in parallel to the larger cap, the output becomes more dynamic.


If a .005 styrene is in the HF in the same manner, it opens up. There has been many a thread of such and biased XOs over at Lansing Heritage.
Greg Timbers, JBL Chief Engineer, who has even commented about such circuits and are used in the better JBLs.
Greg would know the actual answer to the question you ask. I can't state why, just know it does, as I built XOs that are both Biased and By-pass.

Poppycock!!!

What you've done is altered the electrical properties of croossover shifting its frequency response up or down not to mention the possibilities of adding unwanted anomalies such as increased phase angle. Dynamics is a term used to describe the output of an amplifier, not a speaker. Speakers use the term linearity.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I hear voices telling me to buy more speakers, but plugging my ears won't make it stop.
The brain can do the job by itself under the right circumstances!

Right now I have absolutely no desire to buy any speakers.

It's safe until I get a custom house with much bigger rooms.

 

[cpp]

Right now I have absolutely no desire to buy any speakers.

It's safe until I get a custom house with much bigger rooms.

I just finished comparing my amps and speakers at two locations. I swear the amps and speakers at the lake house sounded a lot better than the ones in the city ,

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I just finished comparing my amps and speakers at two locations. I swear the amps and speakers at the lake house sounded a lot better than the ones in the city ,

I will vicariously agree.

When we listen to music or watch movies or do anything, we take in all senses and emotions, unlike bad robots.

So I bet the tranquility of the lake house transcends all minor technical imperfections of any amps & speakers.

 

[Irvrobinson]

So I bet the tranquility of the lake house transcends all minor technical imperfections of any amps & speakers.

It's an easily provable point that audio systems sound better in a very quiet environment than a noisier one. That's why I prefer to listen late in the evening or very early in the morning. Sometimes I get up at 4:30am and listen.