Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?

[DD66000]

This article and any other article without a valid blinded test is just one opinion. Not a fact. So that's why we would like to see a valid single-blinded test and put this question to rest using our own ears, not some graphs as you pointed out.

As was mentioned, there are things that are not being measured, that should, but seemingly can not.
People who constantly live by FR graphs and then analyze their systems to death, imo, lose the joy of listening to music.
Or people who constantly looking for the better speaker (within range of what they can afford), when the speakers they may already have maybe much better than the majority available.

 

[jinjuku]

As was mentioned, there are things that are not being measured, that should, but seemingly can not.
People who constantly live by FR graphs and then analyze their systems to death, imo, lose the joy of listening to music.
Or people who constantly looking for the better speaker (within range of what they can afford), when the speakers they may already have maybe much better than the majority available.

I can't even get some one to take up my offer of $3K, airfare, hotel, car rental to prove that some $260 MIT EXP2's outperform some Belden 12AWG that cost me $15. No measuring equipment involved.

I couldn't get anyone to take $100 bet for Charity where I send them in two sets of cables, two burned in and two not, terminated any way they needed. They would be randomly labeled so they could at the end of 30 days of their own ears only testing, no 'forced discrimination testing' 100% SIGHTED.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

As was mentioned, there are things that are not being measured, that should, but seemingly can not.
People who constantly live by FR graphs and then analyze their systems to death, imo, lose the joy of listening to music.
Or people who constantly looking for the better speaker (within range of what they can afford), when the speakers they may already have maybe much better than the majority available.

Well, I agree with you. There are A LOT of great sounding speakers and most people would be happy forever with many of them. Same with amps. Most of them sound great. Most people would be happy forever with many of the amps out there. They need to stop looking.

Just enjoy the music and movies for crying out loud.

 

[Steve81]

Just enjoy the music and movies for crying out loud.

Because there is always something to come along and annoy you. For example: last night the wife and I were watching one of her flicks at something like -50dB from ref since the kid was sleeping and I got annoyed with the noise from the blu ray player... Clearly, I need to plan another upgrade

 

[cpp]

Well, I agree with you. There are A LOT of great sounding speakers and most people would be happy forever with many of them. Same with amps. Most of them sound great. Most people would be happy forever with many of the amps out there. They need to stop looking.

Just enjoy the music and movies for crying out loud.

Well if we were happy, then there would not be a need for audio forums

 

[3db]

As was mentioned, there are things that are not being measured, that should, but seemingly can not.
People who constantly live by FR graphs and then analyze their systems to death, imo, lose the joy of listening to music.
Or people who constantly looking for the better speaker (within range of what they can afford), when the speakers they may already have maybe much better than the majority available.

What things should be measured? Can you elaborate on this?

I read all kinds of reviews of HT equipment and if the graphs don't match the subjective fluff provided by the reviewers, than the review holds very little creedance IHO. The review simply becomes an advertisement for the product reviewed if specs don't line up with teh subjective fluff. That being said, I used frequency response, dispersion characterictics of my loudspeakers to narrow down my search. I chose my speakers on audition from the screened list. I didn't audition the receiver because I knew from the speaker specs that the speakers I bought were in the intended design range of my AVR. I knew the AVR in pure mode would not impart a sonic signature.

I think too that your correlation of people reading frequency response curves and enjoying music is incorrect. I've been enjoying music on my system that I own for over 5 years now and feel no need to upgrade the speakers or the receivers. The sub is the only thing I need to upgarde so that I can hear/feel bass that my current sub is not providing.

 

[Grador]

This article and any other article without a valid blinded test is just one opinion. Not a fact. So that's why we would like to see a valid single-blinded test and put this question to rest using our own ears, not some graphs as you pointed out.

THANK YOU, finally someone that understands the reasons behind a double blind test, and that it's not necessary here. [This is a pet peeve of mine]

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well if we were happy, then there would not be a need for audio forums

Well.......we could still be happy and just be here to spread the joy and give moral support.....except for Bose, I can't give moral support for Bose.

 

[Swerd]

THANK YOU, finally someone that understands the reasons behind a double blind test, and that it's not necessary here. [This is a pet peeve of mine]

Thank you Grador!! I thought I was the only one who understood or cared about the differences between single- and double-blinded tests . I've always gotten the impression that most people thought that double has to be twice as good as single.

Now I can sleep better knowing that my pet peeve is shared by at least one other person here.

 

[cpp]

Well.......we could still be happy and just be here to spread the joy and give moral support.....except for Bose, I can't give moral support for Bose.

agree or $1000 interconnects

Hey were's the blind test on cables or any fancy measurements ob cables, the amp ain't notin without cables.

 

[3db]

I thought for audio testing that SBT tests were enough. As long as the listeners don't know which amp they were listening too is all that really matters.

 

[DD66000]

Please come up with real examples to support your subjective statements. Thinks that are audibly different are measureable. Its "poppycock" to think our hearing is more senstive than test gear.

And there lies your problem. Harman has the most advanced testing facility in the world....
But what is the final test for all their speakers...the human ear. That says it all!!

 

[mtrycrafts]

[/B]

And there lies your problem. Harman has the most advanced testing facility in the world....
But what is the final test for all their speakers...the human ear. That says it all!!

Oh, yes, but how is that conducted??? Certainly not in a sighted listening but rather rigorous DBT testing.

Oh, and don't think for a moment that they cannot measure what they change in the speakers.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I thought for audio testing that SBT tests were enough. As long as the listeners don't know which amp they were listening too is all that really matters.

Unless there is some interaction with the administrator in the room. But, if one cannot hear a different in SBT, no need to do a DBT. But, if statistically there is a difference. It should be repeated DBT to eliminate the unintended signals from that person.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I have always had the belief that the combination of gear, as to how they operate with each other does effect the sound. Especially the amp/speaker combo.

Yes, that is what it is, just a belief.

Likewise, the quality of an amp's circuitry and quality of components can also make a difference.

Or not. Dr. Rich has examined different topologies many years ago and how components sound. Doubt you would accept the results. Yes, it was published at AES.

Too many people think that just because two, three, four amps all have the same FR (or close enough to each other) HAVE to sound the same is wrong. As has been shown in this article.

Well, a few amps can sound different, but the only way to find out if one wants to know is a controlled test, period.

I have stated many times that FR is not all that matters in the sound of any given amp.

No, there are a few other parameters that can be audible but FR is telling indeed.

I know that things that can not be measured on the bench, can be heard as differences between amps.

No you cannot know this just believe in it. Knowing comes from rigorous discovery testings which I doubt you have conducted.

I listen to music with my ears, not with an oscilloscope, or via a computer graph. As such, I don't really care what any given amp might measure. I determine what amps and other gear I use with my ears, not some graph.

Oh, but if you want to know, you need to listen under controlled conditions as you don't need to see or know to hear.

 

[Grador]

No you cannot know this just believe in it. Knowing comes from rigorous discovery testings which I doubt you have conducted.

I'd go one step past this. As mtrycrafts said in the post above, there is no way anyone's ear is more sensitive or acute than testing equipment. Believing that you cannot measure differences that are audible shows a complete lack of understanding of what is going on. As I said earlier, measuring differences is no problem at all, it's quite simple to do extremely accurately [provided the correct equipment], the crux of the issue lies in determining which of the measured differences produces an audible difference to our less sensitive ears.

 

[Irvrobinson]

No, there are a few other parameters that can be audible but FR is telling indeed.

There are many different frequency response parameters, like into different power levels or into different loads, or even with different input loads. Frequency response curves are also measured by doing a spectrum sweep, which is one frequency at a time. Amplifier performance gets a lot more interesting with complex input loads. These days I expect any well-designed amplifier, tube or solid state, to have a flat 1W frequency response curve into 8 ohm loads. Since they're all pretty much the same these curves are not very telling at all.

 

[PENG]

[/B]

And there lies your problem. Harman has the most advanced testing facility in the world....
But what is the final test for all their speakers...the human ear. That says it all!!

Sure, it can be for you. If it wasn't for scientists/engineers who have to prove everything beyond their senses, we wouldn't be able to enjoy our hifi gear now.

 

[gene]

I thought for audio testing that SBT tests were enough. As long as the listeners don't know which amp they were listening too is all that really matters.

It is good enough, people like to abuse the term DBT in the audio industry, especially some manufacturers. Almost nobody does DBT's for audio and they certainly don't follow the strict protocol established by the medical industry.

 

[Swerd]

I'd go one step past this. As mtrycrafts said in the post above, there is no way anyone's ear is more sensitive or acute than testing equipment. Believing that you cannot measure differences that are audible shows a complete lack of understanding of what is going on. As I said earlier, measuring differences is no problem at all, it's quite simple to do extremely accurately [provided the correct equipment], the crux of the issue lies in determining which of the measured differences produces an audible difference to our less sensitive ears.

Listening doesn't stop at our less sensitive ears, they're hard wired to our brains. Years of experience and interpretations have accumulated and heavily influence what we think we are hearing. We don't really "listen with our ears" so much as we do with our brains.