Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?

[Irvrobinson]

Years ago I used to hang out at another forum, where this genuine lunatic (a moderator at a place called "Cable Asylum") would occasionally show up just to pick fights with everyone. He wasn't really a troll because he identified himself and really believed in all his nonsense. It could get old quickly, but in small doses, it was a lot of fun .

That guy must be my alter ego, because I'm doing essentially the same thing right now on Audiogon, but arguing, of course, that properly designed cables to not have a sound of their own. I'm not accomplishing anything except avoiding some work I need to do, but it is fun.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, yes we do, but $$$ can be an issue. And, in medicine as well. There are more than one drugs to treat an ailment. Generics do as well and cost way less that the gold standard meds.

Generics must be proven (to the FDA) to be as safe as the original drug and the total absorption % is about the same, but they don't have to have the same RATE of absorption. For example, the original brand may take 15 minutes to absorb into the blood, but a generic may take 30 minutes to completely absorb. So brand name Tylenol make relieve your headache in 15 minutes, but some generic Tylenol may take 30-45 minutes.

As a rule of thumb, most people don't take chances on generics when it's something as important as treating strokes, heart attacks, blood clots, dysthymia, thyroid, etc. If you have a stroke or heart attack, you don't want to wait 45 minutes for a drug to work.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Generics must be proven (to the FDA) to be as safe as the original drug and the total absorption % is about the same, but they don't have to have the same RATE of absorption. For example, the original brand may take 15 minutes to absorb into the blood, but a generic may take 30 minutes to completely absorb. So brand name Tylenol make relieve your headache in 15 minutes, but some generic Tylenol may take 30-45 minutes.

I didn't know that. I thought if the active ingredients were the same the generic was functionally identical. I'll think twice next time about buying over-the-counter generics. It always amazes how real expertise, you know the kind that comes from a formal education and working in a field rather than a Google search, reveals surprising, non-obvious information. Somehow we all naively think that's only true in *our* fields.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I didn't know that. I thought if the active ingredients were the same the generic was functionally identical. I'll think twice next time about buying over-the-counter generics. It always amazes how real expertise, you know the kind that comes from a formal education and working in a field rather than a Google search, reveals surprising, non-obvious information. Somehow we all naively think that's only true in *our* fields.

Hee***hee** True.

PENG and I have talked about GOOGLE knowledge vs UNIVERSITY knowledge.

 

[PENG]

Hee***hee** True.

PENG and I have talked about GOOGLE knowledge vs UNIVERSITY knowledge.

Lots of Dr. Googles..

 

[Swerd]

That guy must be my alter ego, because I'm doing essentially the same thing right now on Audiogon, but arguing, of course, that properly designed cables to not have a sound of their own. I'm not accomplishing anything except avoiding some work I need to do, but it is fun.

You don't even come close to this guy . When he was at his most rabid, it was trivially easy to get him so angry that his computer screen must have been covered with his spit. It was as if there were days he was either "on or off his medications". To this day I'm reluctant to name him even though I have more faith in the mods here at AH. WTH, he's Jon Risch.

Generics must be proven (to the FDA) to be as safe as the original drug and the total absorption % is about the same, but they don't have to have the same RATE of absorption. For example, the original brand may take 15 minutes to absorb into the blood, but a generic may take 30 minutes to completely absorb. So brand name Tylenol make relieve your headache in 15 minutes, but some generic Tylenol may take 30-45 minutes.

As a rule of thumb, most people don't take chances on generics when it's something as important as treating strokes, heart attacks, blood clots, dysthymia, thyroid, etc. If you have a stroke or heart attack, you don't want to wait 45 minutes for a drug to work.

You can't generalize about generic drugs. Some work exactly the same as the originals, and others not so well. The FDA requires that the active ingredient be as safe and as effective as the original drugs. But in some cases, the other incipient compounds may differ, and these can affect the rate of absorption or the rate of elimination. Depending on the drug and the medical condition, that may or may not make a difference.

You gave the example of Tylenol, but it does not work for the medical conditions you cited "strokes, heart attacks, blood clots". Aspirin (generic or Bayer) works equally well for these. But in the case of hypothyroidism, the brand name drug Synthroid seems to work better than the generic thyroxins for some people, especially if low doses are required.

 

[Grador]

Here's an idea. We have the ability to record a song played on a specific set of gear. That recording can be analyzed as a waveform. After testing amp gain to insure level matching, record a specific song on amp A. Now switch nothing in the system but the amplifier to amp B. Record the same track at the same level as was played using amp A. Now compare the waveforms from amp A and amp B. If there are differences, the waveforms should vary. This idea is of course assuming that there is some audio software out there that can simply overlay and compare the waveforms.

I'd love to know if this is actually possible or if it's just a dumb idea.

That does not necessarily work because not every difference in waveform is an audible difference. If you could say for sure what is and is not audible you could perform this exact test if and only if you could make the conditions quite identical.

 

[PENG]

That does not necessarily work because not every difference in waveform is an audible difference.

You are right but if you do a mathematical analysis of the waveforms you can quantify the differences in the frequency domain and/or whatever form necessary, in sufficient resolutions that you can prove whether those differences are audible by normal human beings, theoretically speaking. Obviously for such attempts/approach to be credible within the academic environments, the best available recording and associated instruments would have to be used and the tests conducted by some highly respected research labs. As well, test procedures and any subsequent data synthesis and analysis have to be performed by respected PhD's in EE, Physics, Maths etc.

 

[3db]

That does not necessarily work because not every difference in waveform is an audible difference. If you could say for sure what is and is not audible you could perform this exact test if and only if you could make the conditions quite identical.

But every audable difference is measureable. Hence my stance that properly designed SS amps operating in their designed range/load will sound the same until one begins to push the limits of the amp and power supply via through volume or load or both. Then the differences in sound will come out. Its a really meaningless statement to say wait until one puts speaker brand X on a receiver to seperate the men from the boys. Such a statement literally ignores the design intent of the receiver.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Lots of Dr. Googles..

Definitely don't want to argue with Dr. Googles. Could go on forever and bore everyone to death.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You can't generalize about generic drugs. Some work exactly the same as the originals, and others not so well. The FDA requires that the active ingredient be as safe and as effective as the original drugs. But in some cases, the other incipient compounds may differ, and these can affect the rate of absorption or the rate of elimination. Depending on the drug and the medical condition, that may or may not make a difference.

You gave the example of Tylenol, but it does not work for the medical conditions you cited "strokes, heart attacks, blood clots". Aspirin (generic or Bayer) works equally well for these. But in the case of hypothyroidism, the brand name drug Synthroid seems to work better than the generic thyroxins for some people, especially if low doses are required.

Did I say not to use generic drugs?

My point is for critical medications like cyclosporine, tacrolimus, digoxin, phenytoin, warfarin, amiodarone, etc, especially those with Michaelis–Menten kinetics, I personally would not risk it by using generics. Other than that, generics are great, and most of us pharmacists promote it.

I apologize for going off topics. No more. I'm surrounded with drugs all damn day. Very boring. Back to amps and more fun stuff.

 

[Swerd]

Agreed, no more talk about pharmaceuticals. It is boring, and we have gotten close to what may appear as giving medical advice over the internet. Let's not go there.

The only thing that pharmaceuticals share with the original topic about amps is that blind tests are the only way to demonstrate actual effectiveness. I think there is very little enthusiasm around here to go to all the effort of running a blind listening test comparing amplifiers, when it is likely that there may be little difference among them.

 

[Steve81]

I think there is very little enthusiasm around here to go to all the effort of running a blind listening test comparing amplifiers, when it is likely that there may be little difference among them.

Not to mention all the bellyaching that will assuredly occur in the aftermath regardless of the results. Of course, if I were in the Florida area and got invited, I'd still show up for the food and to listen to the 8T's.

 

[cpp]

Not to mention all the bellyaching that will assuredly occur in the aftermath regardless of the results. Of course, if I were in the Florida area and got invited, I'd still show up for the food and to listen to the 8T's.

yep, someone will have something to complain about, this or that wasn't used or compared to this one, or the persons weren't "blind enough", or the test was performed during the daytime, or the beer was to warm, or the music sucked, the amps were too expensive or no pro-amps were used, or it was the speakers , or it was some secret cables, just more endless forum chatter, I need some drugs...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

yep, someone will have something to complain about, this or that wasn't used or compared to this one, or the persons weren't "blind enough", or the test was performed during the daytime, or the beer was to warm, or the music sucked, the amps were too expensive or no pro-amps were used, or it was the speakers , or it was some secret cables, just more endless forum chatter, I need some drugs...

You won't hear any complaints from me as long as the comparison was blinded to AH standards - even if the results show that people could tell the difference between amps. I will be a believer.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... Its a really meaningless statement to say wait until one puts speaker brand X on a receiver to seperate the men from the boys. Such a statement literally ignores the design intent of the receiver.

Exactly!!! How quickly some forget this major aspect.

 

[3db]

Exactly!!! How quickly some forget this major aspect.

Conveniently I might add..

 

[DD66000]

the reason amps sound different

I have always had the belief that the combination of gear, as to how they operate with each other does effect the sound. Especially the amp/speaker combo.
Likewise, the quality of an amp's circuitry and quality of components can also make a difference.
Too many people think that just because two, three, four amps all have the same FR (or close enough to each other) HAVE to sound the same is wrong. As has been shown in this article.
I have stated many times that FR is not all that matters in the sound of any given amp.
I know that things that can not be measured on the bench, can be heard as differences between amps.
I listen to music with my ears, not with an oscilloscope, or via a computer graph. As such, I don't really care what any given amp might measure. I determine what amps and other gear I use with my ears, not some graph.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have always had the belief that the combination of gear, as to how they operate with each other does effect the sound. Especially the amp/speaker combo.
Likewise, the quality of an amp's circuitry and quality of components can also make a difference.
Too many people think that just because two, three, four amps all have the same FR (or close enough to each other) HAVE to sound the same is wrong. As has been shown in this article.
I have stated many times that FR is not all that matters in the sound of any given amp.
I know that things that can not be measured on the bench, can be heard as differences between amps.
I listen to music with my ears, not with an oscilloscope, or via a computer graph. As such, I don't really care what any given amp might measure. I determine what amps and other gear I use with my ears, not some graph.

This article and any other article without a valid blinded test is just one opinion. Not a fact. So that's why we would like to see a valid single-blinded test and put this question to rest using our own ears, not some graphs as you pointed out.

 

[3db]

I have always had the belief that the combination of gear, as to how they operate with each other does effect the sound. Especially the amp/speaker combo.
Likewise, the quality of an amp's circuitry and quality of components can also make a difference.
Too many people think that just because two, three, four amps all have the same FR (or close enough to each other) HAVE to sound the same is wrong. As has been shown in this article.
I have stated many times that FR is not all that matters in the sound of any given amp.
I know that things that can not be measured on the bench, can be heard as differences between amps.
I listen to music with my ears, not with an oscilloscope, or via a computer graph. As such, I don't really care what any given amp might measure. I determine what amps and other gear I use with my ears, not some graph.

Please come up with real examples to support your subjective statements. Thinks that are audibly different are measureable. Its "poppycock" to think our hearing is more senstive than test gear.