Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?

[mtrycrafts]

Double-blinded may not be feasible, but it needs to be at least single-blinded. The listeners should NOT be told which amp is being played.

Can the listeners tell you which amp is the PassLab & which is the Emotiva 6 out of 6 times or only 3 out of 6 times? Or something like that.

Six trials is just not enough for statistical analysis. Should do 16 or better yet, 20 trials.
Hopefully the amps do not show any visible signs that they are in fact in play at any one time.

 

[jinjuku]

You should invite Tom Nousaine to set it up or check your setup and conduct the statistical analysis.

Ethan Winer would be a nominee also.

 

[mtrycrafts]

If you build up a simple relay A/B box that can you switch remotely and instantly you should be good - even if the listener knows which amp is playing - but the key is to level match the amps (within 0.1dB).

You can never rely on audio memory (even a couple seconds or more) and the amps have to be measured to play at the exact same volume...

No. You cannot know which amp is playing at any time or it is not valid, period, no matter what else you have done. Nothing wrong with knowing which amps you are comparing though just not which one you are listening to. That is the whole idea of a DBT.

 

[jinjuku]

Six trials is just not enough for statistical analysis. Should do 16 or better yet, 20 trials.
Hopefully the amps do not show any visible signs that they are in fact in play at any one time.

I think the goals need be better defined to reduce the # of entrants. I would say the Pass Amp, a mid level, and then low level as it relates to pricing. Since Gene made a comment about pro-audio amps I would vote the Crown XLS 2500 as the low end and the Pro-Audio end. Kills two birds with one stone.

If you mean to obtain a statistically meaningful sample size it may be more manageable with a clear hypothesis and then designing around that.

 

[gajenn]

It's really hard to fathom folks who have "stereo, or home theater" as a hobby and not realize some basics, that's why one tries different gear till it matches what we "like"...every capacitor-resister-wire-power supply etc etc inline has an effect. You may not hear it for whatever reason, but that's like saying 18 gauge hardware store wire is equal to MIT or Audioquest connects and speaker wiring. I agree with Gene,and others who've done extensive testing and even though some differences can be slight, there are differences. That's like saying Krell and Audio Research sound the same, jeez maybe I'm in the wrong forum. Sorry if I offended anyone....

 

[mtrycrafts]

Going to point out amps that run out of juice for starters.

Then, one is testing how it sounds driven beyond its capability, no??? Not a valid test but, one can control that point and not get there.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Ethan Winer would be a nominee also.

Don't know his track record in setting them up. So would Arny Krueger who is posting at AVS but not sure he goes on the road for these testing while Tom would.

 

[mtrycrafts]

It's really hard to fathom folks who have "stereo, or home theater" as a hobby and not realize some basics, that's why one tries different gear till it matches what we "like"...every capacitor-resister-wire-power supply etc etc inline has an effect. You may not hear it for whatever reason, but that's like saying 18 gauge hardware store wire is equal to MIT or Audioquest connects and speaker wiring. I agree with Gene,and others who've done extensive testing and even though some differences can be slight, there are differences. That's like saying Krell and Audio Research sound the same, jeez maybe I'm in the wrong forum. Sorry if I offended anyone....

Well, I guess you just don't know the 30 year history of testing those items you mentioned under bias controlled conditions. Don't blame you for that but don't think you assumptions are facts that have been demonstrated to be facts.
In the end, you are allowed to have any beliefs you want to embrace, even false ones.

 

[PENG]

It's really hard to fathom folks who have "stereo, or home theater" as a hobby and not realize some basics, that's why one tries different gear till it matches what we "like"...every capacitor-resister-wire-power supply etc etc inline has an effect. You may not hear it for whatever reason, but that's like saying 18 gauge hardware store wire is equal to MIT or Audioquest connects and speaker wiring. I agree with Gene,and others who've done extensive testing and even though some differences can be slight, there are differences. That's like saying Krell and Audio Research sound the same, jeez maybe I'm in the wrong forum. Sorry if I offended anyone....

Don't be sorry, that's why forums have the ignore list feature.

 

[Alex2507]

Whose leg are you trying to pull?

Mine obviously and it worked until your post snapped me out of it. BTW, I can feel Swerd restraining himself.

 

[gajenn]

so mtrycrafts, are you saying that given the same specs, a tube amp and a solid state amp would sound the same? That using crappola resistors and other parts wouldn't effect the sound coming out of the speakers? I'm very old school, did most of my hard core stereo listening in the 70's when I had a very different income. I tried many brands of amps, pre-amps, speakers, turntables-tonearms cartridges and interconnects...each change had an audible effect..but i guess that was all assuming the changes weren't real? how can one say that different amps sound that same? unless they're knockoffs using the same guts.

 

[Grador]

so mtrycrafts, are you saying that given the same specs, a tube amp and a solid state amp would sound the same? That using crappola resistors and other parts wouldn't effect the sound coming out of the speakers? I'm very old school, did most of my hard core stereo listening in the 70's when I had a very different income. I tried many brands of amps, pre-amps, speakers, turntables-tonearms cartridges and interconnects...each change had an audible effect..but i guess that was all assuming the changes weren't real? how can one say that different amps sound that same? unless they're knockoffs using the same guts.

Spoken by someone who has not read anything anyone else has said so far.

 

[jinjuku]

MIT or Audioquest

I have a pair of MIT EXP2 14' cables here. I have a pair of Audioquest King Cobra XLR's. I have $3000 against your $1500 and loser pays for the air fair / hotel / car that you couldn't hit 90% stone cold blind vs my Belden speaker cable and Mogami Gold XLR's out of 20 flips of the coin. The testing would stop as soon as you either failed the 90% or reached it.

You don't get to listen to either before hand. You listen through 20 flips of the coin and at the end say which was either MIT EXP2/Belden or AQ King Cobra/Mogami. You can pick either speaker level (MIT) or line level (AQ).

 

[Adam]

Spoken by someone who has not read anything anyone else has said so far.

Wait...we're supposed to read other posts?

 

[Irvrobinson]

Listener fatigue.. interesting concept that just may work for amplifier testing. Its proven that accuracy of auditory memory is short lived so I don't put a lot of stock into reviewers that spout on about how much better one amp sounds over another when it takes longer than 5 minutes to switch amps. Listener fatigue could work if one can guarantee that you are in the right frame of mind and not tired to begin with.

That's a reasonable point, but I wouldn't mention it unless I noticed a long-term effect. There no doubt in my mind that my mood or other physiological factors (e.g. how clear my ears are) affect how my system sounds to me.

 

[mtrycrafts]

M... BTW, I can feel Swerd restraining himself.

Well, he has more restraint than I have, it seems couldn't take it anymore and responded.

 

[mtrycrafts]

so mtrycrafts, are you saying that given the same specs, a tube amp and a solid state amp would sound the same? That using crappola resistors and other parts wouldn't effect the sound coming out of the speakers? I'm very old school, did most of my hard core stereo listening in the 70's when I had a very different income. I tried many brands of amps, pre-amps, speakers, turntables-tonearms cartridges and interconnects...each change had an audible effect..but i guess that was all assuming the changes weren't real? how can one say that different amps sound that same? unless they're knockoffs using the same guts.

I almost missed your response as it is not linked to directly to my post.

Firstly, tube amps do not have the same specs as SS amps. Rarely do they have such low output impedences as an SS which has a great influence on the amps behavior. Secondly, I guess you just didn't follow Carvers career in such things and comparisons as when he added enough output impedance to an SS to equal the tube, and no one could differentiate them. Again, not your fault for not knowing and believing that your perceptions in the past and I am sure in the present are in fact infallible.

As to crapola resistors, I wouldn't know but resistors used in amps in past gear or today's and exotic audiophile resistors, or caps, well those too have been tested in the past 30 years. You won't like the answer so I will not upset you with reality. Again, you are free to believe. You really should dwell into human psychology, bias, testing of humans.

I just wonder how you compared any of the components you mentioned, how well it was controlled for bias and how well you really guessed.
In the end, not important as I doubt you are interested in expanding your knowledge base in facts, not fiction.

 

[Swerd]

Anyone who can't hear the difference between amps, with all else the same, should either get a hearing aid or get the wax removed from their ears, there's an enormous difference between amplifiers. If the previous fails to fix the hearing problem then there's only one thing left, cranial liposuction....after that it just won't matter, about anything.

BTW, I can feel Swerd restraining himself.

Well, he has more restraint than I have, it seems couldn't take it anymore and responded.

You and others are responding effectively, so tonight, restraint comes easily .

With this guy, it does seem better to just flush than to wrestle.

 

[mtrycrafts]

You and others are responding effectively, so tonight, restraint comes easily .

With this guy, it does seem better to just flush than to wrestle.

My mistake. You did respond and correctly. I was weak tonight.

 

[cornelius]

No. You cannot know which amp is playing at any time or it is not valid, period, no matter what else you have done. Nothing wrong with knowing which amps you are comparing though just not which one you are listening to. That is the whole idea of a DBT.

Who said this is going to be a DBT? ABX, DBT - all of that is unnecessary. If Gene properly level matches these amplifiers, even if the listener knows which amp they're listening to, they still won't hear a difference from one component to the next. If they do, it's because one is louder than the other...