Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, if 2 amps are both 400WPC+ into 4 ohms, will one of them run of of juice when they drive the 8T?

 

[Steve81]

Well, if 2 amps are both 400WPC+ into 4 ohms, will one of them run of of juice when they drive the 8T?

It's possible for one to run out of juice sooner than the other; Amp A could handle a reactive ~3 ohm load better than Amp B, in spite of the fact that A and B are equals into a 4 ohm resistive load. Also, assuming Gene is still running these things full range and re-routing LFE to them, I'd expect an action flick at full reference level would be a very stressful experience for an amplifier capable of delivering "only" 400W into 4 ohms.

 

[jinjuku]

How about something that is rated for 1200 WPC into 2 ohm

I wouldn't mind monoblocking two Drivecore XLS 2000's. 2100 WPC at 4 ohm bridged. Less than $1K.

 

[panteragstk]

How about something that is rated for 1200 WPC into 2 ohm

I wouldn't mind monoblocking two Drivecore XLS 2000's. 2100 WPC at 4 ohm bridged. Less than $1K.

I can say that my xls1500 running at 2 ohms has been a beast. I've had it clip, but that's because I had the gain too high. Oops. Runs silent and cool to the touch. Great amps for the money.

 

[Steve81]

How about something that is rated for 1200 WPC into 2 ohm

Hard to say. It's easy enough to plug it all the numbers into a handy dandy SPL calculator and arrive at a theoretical output number, but a lot depends on how much help the room gives down low where the extra juice is needed for a big LFE peak.

I wouldn't mind monoblocking two Drivecore XLS 2000's. 2100 WPC at 4 ohm bridged. Less than $1K.

What can I say, if I could afford the 8Ts, I'd be looking at something a little nicer looking, even if it didn't perform a whit better. I am superficial though

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

How about something that is rated for 1200 WPC into 2 ohm

I wouldn't mind monoblocking two Drivecore XLS 2000's. 2100 WPC at 4 ohm bridged. Less than $1K.

If it's a GTG, somebody could bring a Crown amp and see if it sounds as good or if it runs out of juice.

 

[M Code]

Driving an amplifier into a challenging loudspeaker is significantly more complex than a resistive load. For example, if the load is highly reactive with major phase issues the amplifier can be driven into clipping @ significantly lower output than its rated power. In our lab, using the Audio Precision System, Cascade 2 we were able to drive an amplifier rated @ 250W per channel into clipping with only 35 watts of output..

Regarding listening tests, whenever the amplifier's protection circuit is activated this is very audible. Here again depends upon the amplifier and power supply, their price class and amount of overdesign...

Just my $0.02...

 

[jinjuku]

For example, if the load is highly reactive with major phase issues

You have to love actively managed speakers...

That type of speaker is:

1. Most likely costly enough that the added cost of additional amplification is nominal
2. Do to the fact it's highly reactive and major phase swing should be a serious candidate for and active X/O in any case.

Plus you get the added benefit of really taking advantage of the amps damping factor.

Still plenty of sub $1000 amps that would handle ESL's and the like with out being brought to their knees. Not sure what you mean by 'their price class' and what range of funds you have in mind.

 

[RainMan]

This is an interesting topic. I can't seem to tell with home theater amps but strangly enough back in 1979 pioneer made this car audio amplifier called a GM120 . It had the brightest and clearest highs and midrange I have ever heard in a vehicle . Changed to other brands of amps and they never replicated its SQ . Either that or I was going deaf lol

 

[jinjuku]

This is an interesting topic. I can't seem to tell with home theater amps but strangly enough back in 1979 pioneer made this car audio amplifier called a GM120 . It had the brightest and clearest highs and midrange I have ever heard in a vehicle . Changed to other brands of amps and they never replicated its SQ . Either that or I was going deaf lol

You will love this thread at Parts Express then: My old car amps just walked all over my home amps I think

Here's a snippet:

"We listened to a Threshold SA3 class A 50wpc amp, Nikko Alpha 230 and a Soundcraftsmen PM860. After some listening, we found slight differences and at least on the Usher speakers, we picked our favorites in the order of the Threshold as the best, followed by the SAE, then the Soundcraftsmen then last the Nikko. Differences were not huge but enough to pick out. I'm not surprised because the Threshold was the most $$ when it was new and its generally regarded very well.

I then remembered a couple car amps I had in my closet as well as a DC power supply I used ages ago for playing around back in the days of car audio. I dragged the two amps (orion 225 hcca and 250 hcca) and set up the 225 first at the same 75db volume level. We were laughing because it was a stupid test because they are car amps so they were probably going to get burried against some of the home amps especially the Threshold which is very dear to me

We started listening and half way through the first song we were all kind of quiet and occasionally looking at one another and I had to pause. I was about to say "I think this is the best sounding so far!" my other friend said "Omg this thing is surreal... better than the others" and my second friend agreed. We thought, ok no it cant be, its just a car amp. We listenend to more songs and we all still felt the same. Swapped the larger 250 HCCA amp and we could not tell one from the other so we basically liked both the same."

 

[Alex2507]

In response to the poll I want to say now that I have me some fancy external amplification, you bet your @ss I can hear a difference. In car analogy terms it's like asking if a VW and a Porsche handle the same at 2 mph ... well, yeah but who cares? At the same time I subscribe to PENG's point of view with the understanding that his amp/rec'r choices are all top notch. He's not running some 30 year old amp with out of spec caps and comparing that to a $5,000 digital amp ... and even that difference might fall into his description of a 'minor' audible difference as compared to the difference in a $500 speaker and a $5,000 speaker.

Really interesting article and thread btw.

 

[Adam]

My amps sound different - in standby mode.

 

[cornelius]

I'm going to try to get a switcher box that level matches and is remote controllable like the one Salk used at last Years GTG. DBT protocol is not necessary. The listener can't tell which amp is running. As long as you can level match and instantly switch between amps and preferably not identify to the listener which amp is playing, it should be good enough.

If you build up a simple relay A/B box that can you switch remotely and instantly you should be good - even if the listener knows which amp is playing - but the key is to level match the amps (within 0.1dB).

You can never rely on audio memory (even a couple seconds or more) and the amps have to be measured to play at the exact same volume...

 

[3db]

If you build up a simple relay A/B box that can you switch remotely and instantly you should be good - even if the listener knows which amp is playing - but the key is to level match the amps (within 0.1dB).

You can never rely on audio memory (even a couple seconds or more) and the amps have to be measured to play at the exact same volume...

Hence my skeptism that amps sound differently. However, I believe that you can make an amp sound different from another.

 

[gajenn]

Anyone who can't hear the difference between amps, with all else the same, should either get a hearing aid or get the wax removed from their ears, there's an enormous difference between amplifiers. If the previous fails to fix the hearing problem then there's only one thing left, cranial liposuction....after that it just won't matter, about anything.
What a curious question, that's like asking if all 6 1/2 woofers sound the same, or all speakers or speaker wire, Everything inline from source to output has an effect, is that clear?

 

[jinjuku]

Anyone who can't hear the difference between amps, with all else the same, should either get a hearing aid or get the wax removed from their ears, there's an enormous difference between amplifiers. If the previous fails to fix the hearing problem then there's only one thing left, cranial liposuction....after that it just won't matter, about anything.
What a curious question, that's like asking if all 6 1/2 woofers sound the same, or all speakers or speaker wire, Everything inline from source to output has an effect, is that clear?

In reasonable SPL levels where the amps aren't stressed I haven't heard what I would consider 'enormous' differences in the last 15 years. If you could clarify your position a bit it would help.

What I do know is I have heard a lot of amps that don't seem to do anything wrong now days. There is always going to be an exception of poorly engineered pieces out there.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Anyone who can't hear the difference between amps, with all else the same, should either get a hearing aid or get the wax removed from their ears, there's an enormous difference between amplifiers. If the previous fails to fix the hearing problem then there's only one thing left, cranial liposuction....after that it just won't matter, about anything.
What a curious question, that's like asking if all 6 1/2 woofers sound the same, or all speakers or speaker wire, Everything inline from source to output has an effect, is that clear?

You're just joking, right?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Anyone who can't hear the difference between amps, with all else the same, should either get a hearing aid or get the wax removed from their ears, there's an enormous difference between amplifiers. If the previous fails to fix the hearing problem then there's only one thing left, cranial liposuction....after that it just won't matter, about anything.
What a curious question, that's like asking if all 6 1/2 woofers sound the same, or all speakers or speaker wire, Everything inline from source to output has an effect, is that clear?

Whose leg are you trying to pull?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Wow the poll results are interesting so far. It tells me you guys need to do a little more listening and not so much overthinking

As someone who has over 10 years of audio design experience and about 15 years measuring and analyzing and most importantly LISTENING, I can tell you my experience even in controlled listening tests is amps can and do sound different even if they measure well and aren't driven beyond their means. The degree of audibility differences depend on a lot of factors, including loudspeaker load, quality of the loudspeakers, room acoustics, source material, etc. I think I may need to host a little amp face-off at my place between the Pass Labs, Classe and Emotiva amps. Could be fun (especially if there is ample supply of alcohol involved),despite the amount of work involved.

You should invite Tom Nousaine to set it up or check your setup and conduct the statistical analysis.

 

[Send Margaritas]

You're just joking, right?

He may believe it. Plenty of folks do inexplicable things (like buying Bose )

I've done it myself. I've a spiffy amp, that added nothing extra to my sound, but I just 'had to have it'. I'm keeping it too! lol

I'll be reading Gene's tests with interest, although I'm predisposed to believe that clean modern amps, putting out the same amount of power, with the same/similar secondary capacitance, and the same/similar S/N ratio, same/similar power supply specs, playing the same source with the same speakers would sound so similar as to be difficult/impossible to tell apart. That said, I'd bet the mind plays a major role in any 'perception' of differences. No facts or data, that just seems to match my perception of reality.

Drinking and testing that theory sounds like a fine plan. I encourage you in that endeavor!