Bookshelf Speaker Recommendations ($1000 - $2500 and $2500 - $5000 range discussion)

cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
I'm the one who wants the big new custom house! :D
then man go spend the coins on the new house, just think of the fun designing a NEW audio room (s)... not to mention a long time investment with a return on that investment a long time down the road. :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
then man go spend the coins on the new house, just think of the fun designing a NEW audio room (s)... not to mention a long time investment with a return on that investment a long time down the road. :D
She would rather invest in properties for rental.

She is the boss. :D
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Okey doke. Well, I got mentioned by name, so how can I refuse to weigh in? :p

First, I've not heard these ATC speakers. Can't weigh in on those. But at $1000/pair?! Seems like they're a steal.

Anywho, speaking on things I DO know.

Are you looking for a 5 speaker music system? Or is this primarily a 5 speaker movie system?

Either way, if you can have your centre speakers at ear height and have all 3 front speakers oriented the same way, yes, that is ideal. It usually requires an acoustically transparent front projection screen, or sacrificing viewing quality by having the TV way up high. So that's why it isn't common, and horizontal Centers are all the rage. But if you can make it work with audio as your #1 priority, 3 identical speakers all oriented the same and at ear height is indeed the best.

The surrounds are a different story. If this is a 5 speaker music system, then yes, identical speakers to the fronts is ideal. For music, they should also be at eat height, and 30 degrees to the rear. In other words, if you drew a straight line out to either side, 30 degrees towards the rear of the room from those lines is where the surround speakers should go for music. This is the speaker layout intended for SACD and DVD-Audio.

If it's movies and TV though, it's different. The goal there is to recreate a movie theater's sound, where there are multiple surround speakers on each side wall, all way up high. Surrounds for movies are meant to "blanket" the audience and are mostly for ambience and the occasional sound effect. They are supposed to be diffuse.

You keep talking about imaging. Surround speakers do not image. Even for music, they're either used to place you in the live venue as though you were an audience member, or they're used to place you "on stage" in the middle of the musicians. They don't image like the front speakers do. Mainly because we humans don't hear too so good when sounds are coming from behind us!

Anywho, the choice is pretty easy. 5 channel music? Go 5 identical speakers all at ear level. 5 channel movies? Go with diffuse surrounds mounted up high and directly to either side. If you want to use one system for both, that's where THX Music Mode comes in. It uses 7 speakers to mimic 5. Two diffuse surrounds directly to either side work in conjunction with two monopole surround back speakers behind you to create the illusion that sound is coming from the rear corners instead, where the surround speakers would be placed in a 5 channel music setup. With careful placement and aiming of the surround and surround back speakers, it actually works pretty well! Again, because we don't hear sounds behind us all that well to begin with!

For the speakers, I'll just throw another option onto the heap:

If you can fit their width and depth, consider using 3 of the Ascend Sierra Tower Horizon Center speakers with the RAAL ribbon tweeter upgrade. Most people don't even think of using 3 horizontal speakers, but the Sierra Horizon images wonderfully, and it's front ported design means you can place it closer to the front wall than most other speakers. Although these sealed ATC bookshelf speakers would do that, too!

Dave over at Ascend has also made several custom versions of the Horizon Center, including a "low profile" version with the tweeter and mid-woofer side-by-side. This design could easily be made vertical. Although you'd end up with quite a tall "bookshelf" speaker that might not fit your space constraints.

Regardless, you should talk to Dave. He can customize those Horizon cabinets in many ways. And the RAAL ribbon tweeter is glorious. If you liked the Focal Beryllium tweeter ( and I know you did), the RAAL ribbon in the Ascends is how you get that level of quality, and actually even better transient response, if you can believe it! All at a lower price. About $2700-$2900 for a pair, depending on the finish.

Check Ascend's forum for all the info on the Sierra Tower Center/Horizon. Dave even has a YouTube video of two horizontal Horizons being used as main Left/Right speakers ;)
 
billy p

billy p

Audioholic Ninja
Here is a picture of a custom Sierra horizon....the info on the standard horizon is easy to find over at the Ascend forum....if you wish?

CSTC2.jpg
 
C

CHASLS2

Audioholic Intern
I would check out the Paradgim Studio 20's or Sig 2's.
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
She would rather invest in properties for rental.

She is the boss. :D
Maybe she has intentions of putting you in one of those rentals, then she can be the Audioholic Land (Overlord)
Seriously my friend, could you be more specific with the model Adcom speaker selector you have? Thanks :)
Cheers Jeff
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
scattershot, Can I ask where do you find information on the "Salk SongSurround II's " for $1500.00

I've been looking at the Kef R300, the Aerial 5B, and the ATC
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Seriously my friend, could you be more specific with the model Adcom speaker selector you have? Thanks :)
Cheers Jeff
It is the Adcom GFS-600.

GFS-600 - ADCOM-USA

You thinking about getting one for your future speaker collection? :D

I should have bought it from eBay. After I bought a new GFS-600 from Amazon, I bought 2 GFS-6 from eBay - one for the family room speakers, and one for looks. :D



 
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ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
It is the Adcom GFS-600.

GFS-600 - ADCOM-USA

You thinking about getting one for your future speaker collection? :D

I should have bought it from eBay. After I bought a new GFS-600 from Amazon, I bought 2 GFS-6 from eBay - one for the family room speakers, and one for looks. :D



Thanks my man, no I just want it for looks also :D
 
S

scattershot

Audioholic
Okey doke. Well, I got mentioned by name, so how can I refuse to weigh in? :p

First, I've not heard these ATC speakers. Can't weigh in on those. But at $1000/pair?! Seems like they're a steal.

Anywho, speaking on things I DO know.

Are you looking for a 5 speaker music system? Or is this primarily a 5 speaker movie system?

Either way, if you can have your centre speakers at ear height and have all 3 front speakers oriented the same way, yes, that is ideal. It usually requires an acoustically transparent front projection screen, or sacrificing viewing quality by having the TV way up high. So that's why it isn't common, and horizontal Centers are all the rage. But if you can make it work with audio as your #1 priority, 3 identical speakers all oriented the same and at ear height is indeed the best.

The surrounds are a different story. If this is a 5 speaker music system, then yes, identical speakers to the fronts is ideal. For music, they should also be at eat height, and 30 degrees to the rear. In other words, if you drew a straight line out to either side, 30 degrees towards the rear of the room from those lines is where the surround speakers should go for music. This is the speaker layout intended for SACD and DVD-Audio.

If it's movies and TV though, it's different. The goal there is to recreate a movie theater's sound, where there are multiple surround speakers on each side wall, all way up high. Surrounds for movies are meant to "blanket" the audience and are mostly for ambience and the occasional sound effect. They are supposed to be diffuse.

You keep talking about imaging. Surround speakers do not image. Even for music, they're either used to place you in the live venue as though you were an audience member, or they're used to place you "on stage" in the middle of the musicians. They don't image like the front speakers do. Mainly because we humans don't hear too so good when sounds are coming from behind us!

Anywho, the choice is pretty easy. 5 channel music? Go 5 identical speakers all at ear level. 5 channel movies? Go with diffuse surrounds mounted up high and directly to either side. If you want to use one system for both, that's where THX Music Mode comes in. It uses 7 speakers to mimic 5. Two diffuse surrounds directly to either side work in conjunction with two monopole surround back speakers behind you to create the illusion that sound is coming from the rear corners instead, where the surround speakers would be placed in a 5 channel music setup. With careful placement and aiming of the surround and surround back speakers, it actually works pretty well! Again, because we don't hear sounds behind us all that well to begin with!

For the speakers, I'll just throw another option onto the heap:

If you can fit their width and depth, consider using 3 of the Ascend Sierra Tower Horizon Center speakers with the RAAL ribbon tweeter upgrade. Most people don't even think of using 3 horizontal speakers, but the Sierra Horizon images wonderfully, and it's front ported design means you can place it closer to the front wall than most other speakers. Although these sealed ATC bookshelf speakers would do that, too!

Dave over at Ascend has also made several custom versions of the Horizon Center, including a "low profile" version with the tweeter and mid-woofer side-by-side. This design could easily be made vertical. Although you'd end up with quite a tall "bookshelf" speaker that might not fit your space constraints.

Regardless, you should talk to Dave. He can customize those Horizon cabinets in many ways. And the RAAL ribbon tweeter is glorious. If you liked the Focal Beryllium tweeter ( and I know you did), the RAAL ribbon in the Ascends is how you get that level of quality, and actually even better transient response, if you can believe it! All at a lower price. About $2700-$2900 for a pair, depending on the finish.

Check Ascend's forum for all the info on the Sierra Tower Center/Horizon. Dave even has a YouTube video of two horizontal Horizons being used as main Left/Right speakers ;)
Thanks for the reply FirstReflection, I thought I was going to need the bat signal ;)

I get what you are saying with the surround sound (monopoles vs dipoles) and the whole music vs. movies debate so thanks for clearing that up it makes my decision much more clear! Really that may be the clearest explanation for the monopole vs. dipole argument I have seen.

In terms of my front layout of the speakers, I have a very long shelf above my 60" TV that is about 8 feet wide so my front 3 identical bookshelfs will go up there.

UNFORTUNATELY, the height of the shelf is 6.25 feet tall (I made it that way so my TV space can accommodate up to a 80" screen) so the speakers tweeters are significantly above ear level. So I will have to angle all 3 speakers down (using a rubber door stop, good idea?) so that the tweeters sound is projected at my ear level.

The "Ascend Sierra Tower Horizon Center speakers with the RAAL ribbon tweeter upgrade" isn't really an option because I have only 20" in height available ...

I LOVED the Focal 1008 Beryllium tweeter but it's going to be way too expensive around these parts (I need to get the bookshelfs BELOW $2500 per pair).

What are your thoughts on these 2 speakers:

• RBH Signature Classic Reference Series 61-SE/R ($2750 a pair MSRP):
RBH 61-SE/R Bookshelf Speaker
RBH 61-SE/R Bookshelf Speaker

• Paradigm's Signature S2 v3’s ($3600 a pair MSRP):
Signature S2 - Welcome to the New Official Paradigm® Website.

versus the ATC? I may be able to sneak in $2700 per pair, but anything more I can't afford because I have to buy 5 matching bookshelf's...
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I may be able to sneak in $2700 per pair, but anything more I can't afford because I have to buy 5 matching bookshelf's...
I don't think you do. Maybe three matching bookshelfs, but the surrounds need not be the same, only similar. The reason for this is that they won't timbre match anyways even if they're identical, because they're reaching your ears from a different angle where our timbre perception is very different. Additionally, they are going to have a vastly different room interaction, which again will change their timbre.

Focus your budget on the fronts. Surrounds should be adequate, but you shouldn't sacrifice the fronts in the process. You can use a lesser tweeter on a surround and never know the difference for example. Yes in a perfect world you'd have identical speakers all around. But as soon as you bring a budget into the equation you should begin to weigh it towards the front speakers. Whether it's music or movies, the fronts dominate the sound.
 
S

scattershot

Audioholic
Interesting note from Paradigm's own tech.
I told the guy I would be 9 feet away from the fronts and that I have an Onkyo TX-NR809 receiver:
Onkyo TX-NR809 - 7.2-Channel Network A/V Receiver | Model Information | Onkyo USA Home Theater Products

I told him I was considering these 2 speakers:

Signature S2’s:
Signature S2 - Welcome to the New Official Paradigm® Website.

Studio 20’s:
Studio 20 - Welcome to the New Official Paradigm® Website.

and he mentioned that, and I quote:
"the Studio 20’s are a better match for most Japanese receivers. The Signature Series are a better match for higher power, higher end electronics."

Thought the Onkyo 809 would be able to run the Signature S2's to close to their potential (from 9 feet away) but their tech says otherwise...

He also seems to hint that the "Japanese receivers" aren't up to snuff for their top-end bookshelfs, even in a small room like mine.

Looks like I need to get a amplifier to complement my 809 or the Signature S2's aren't a option...
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I've heard the S2s and really liked them. I've heard the 20s and 40s in my own setups many times and the S2s are significantly better speakers than the 20s, IMHO.

I also listened to the Joseph Audio RM7XLs that I listed earlier in the same setup and they were easily better than the S2s and actually cost a few hundred less.

Looks like I need to get a amplifier to complement my 809 or the Signature S2's aren't a option...
Don't buy an amp just because of what the tech said. That will remain to be seen once you actually have whatever it is in your setup. I listened to the 20s and S2s at a shop on an Arcam integrated amp in a large but closed and treated listening room, and they both did fine without ridiculous amounts of power. I've driven the 20s to very satisfying levels with my 25W (class A) PM7200 :)
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
He also seems to hint that the "Japanese receivers" aren't up to snuff for their top-end bookshelfs, even in a small room like mine.
Paradigm has a conflict of interest because they make Anthem electronics.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Paradigm has a conflict of interest because they make Anthem electronics.
I didn't want to say that, but yes, I think he was sort of "looking down his nose" at the electronics in question.
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
The Onkyo 809 is not made in Japan............:D
 

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