Bookshelf Speaker Recommendations ($1000 - $2500 and $2500 - $5000 range discussion)

[FirstReflection]

@scattershot

I think we got our wires crossed a little bit!

I was suggesting the Sierra Tower Center , not the Sierra Towers. Confusing names, obviously

Ascend doesn't have the Sierra Tower Center on their main website yet. Dave is still tinkering with possible alternative cabinet designs, so he's basically keeping this particular speaker a little bit under wraps until everything is finalized and he can really ramp up production. There's enough word of mouth on the Sierra Tower Center already to keep Ascend plenty busy with made-to-order purchases!

You can read a little bit about the dimensions and see some pics of the cabinets in this thread at the Ascend Forum . You'll have to create an account for the forum if you don't already have one in order to view the pics

And you can read the huge long thread where the Sierra Tower Center picks up the name "Horizon" in this thread here .

So a little explanation is in order. First up, Dave decided he didn't really want the final name to be "Sierra Tower Center". Hence the name "Horizon" has been adopted. The reason he didn't want to end up with the final name being "Center" is detailed in his first post in the main thread about this particular speaker (2nd link above).

The Horizon isn't just a center speaker. It also makes great Main Left & Right speakers! All while being positioned horizontally!

It is 11" tall, so it will easily fit your 20" maximum height clearance. It's nearly 2 feet wide, but that's ok. You said you have an 8 foot shelf, so you'll still have some room between the three speakers up there. And it is front ported, which is definitely a plus in your type of installation! You wouldn't want to deal with a rear port. So sealed or front ported speakers are definitely the way to go in your case!

Once again, the link to purchase the Sierra Tower Center/Horizon is live and available here . Take note that the price is for ONE speaker at a time. Not a pair

Now, I mentioned the RAAL ribbon tweeter upgrade, but that was before I knew about this 6.25 foot elevated shelf situation! That changes things!

The one thing the ribbon tweeter lacks is tall vertical dispersion. You pretty much need to have your ears within the boundaries of the ribbon tweeter - and the tweeter isn't very big! So you really need to have the tweeter right at ear level for the very best sound with the RAAL.

What would make WAY more sense in your setup would be to stick with the regular NrT tweeter, which is still excellent! It has much taller vertical dispersion than the RAAL, and it will be much less of a problem with your setup.

You will still want to angle your speakers downwards to aim them at the seats. But the NrT tweeter will handle this less than ideal placement much better. As an added bonus, that brings the price for a pair down by $700! So they're well and truly within your price range now! And you could even afford one of the nicer finish options I'm a big, big fan of either the "Natural" bamboo or the "Dark Cherry", myself

When you have a clearly compromised placement like yours, there's such a thing as sending good money after bad. You're not going to fix your less than ideal placement with higher quality speakers. You're just going to bring down the performance of the speakers with the poor placement, I'm afraid

It doesn't make sense to be looking at $2500/pair bookshelf speakers that are just going to be crippled by where they're placed. It makes MUCH more sense to spend less money on speakers that will better handle the poor placement.

I'd use Auralex MoPads to decouple the speakers from that high shelf, for sure. The MoPads can also angle the speakers downwards by as much as 8 degrees. I think you might need even more tilt than that, so you could use your rubber doorstops as well to get the angle just right. The MoPads have a nice little "lip" on the front that will help to hold the front of the speakers from slipping forward on the downward slope

I would also probably turn the speakers upside down. This will get the tweeter as low as possible and thus as close to ear level as possible. But it will also put the front slot ports of the Ascend Horizon speakers on the top, which will prevent them from firing down into the shelf with the fairly steep downward angle.

If you ever find a way to have better placement, the Ascend Sierra Tower Center/Horizon speakers will still reward you with stellar sound quality. And if you're dead set on having 5 identical speakers, the horizontal form factor and front ports will make them easier to use in the surround positions as well.

So I still have the Horizon as my top recommendation for you. It's an excellent, excellent speaker. And though it was designed as a dedicated Center initially, it's proven its chops as a Main Left & Right speaker. Enough that Dave wanted to change the name from Sierra Tower Center to Sierra Horizon

So I hope that clears up the confusion! These aren't the Sierra Tower speakers. These are the 11 inch tall, 23 inch wide, front ported "Sierra Tower Center". And I'm recommending you get three of them to put on that shelf above your TV. And I'm recommending you stick with the NrT tweeter. As much as I love the RAAL ribbon upgrade, the placement demands better vertical dispersion than the RAAL offers. And sticking with the NrT makes the price fall right in line with where you want it to be. So it's a win-win

Hope that helps!

 

[cpp]

SongSurround Overview/Pricing

thanks scattershot

 

[scattershot]

I've heard the S2s and really liked them. I've heard the 20s and 40s in my own setups many times and the S2s are significantly better speakers than the 20s, IMHO.

I also listened to the Joseph Audio RM7XLs that I listed earlier in the same setup and they were easily better than the S2s and actually cost a few hundred less.



Don't buy an amp just because of what the tech said. That will remain to be seen once you actually have whatever it is in your setup. I listened to the 20s and S2s at a shop on an Arcam integrated amp in a large but closed and treated listening room, and they both did fine without ridiculous amounts of power. I've driven the 20s to very satisfying levels with my 25W (class A) PM7200

Thanks for the info.
I liked but was disappointing in the Studio 20's all at the same time, but it's good to hear from someone who has heard both that the S2's are a huge step up.

As for the amp, I was suprised to hear from the Paradigm tech that based on my amp (Onkyo 809) essentially I should stick with Studio 20's since the S2's require more than what my amp can do to be pushed properly (even though I am only 9 feet away from speakers) and I figured the Paradigm guy would try to upsell me if he could but he was essentially saying based on my amp I won't hear enough of a difference... (since he shouldn't assume I would buy a new amp to power them)

 

[scattershot]

Paradigm has a conflict of interest because they make Anthem electronics.

Lol I didn't realize that.

Would you say though that an Onkyo 809 should run them close to potential in a small room (e.g. 9 feet away from speakers) or is there something inherently inferior to their design that precludes that?

I know it can be an issue with some high-current 4 ohm speakers, but S2's and Studio 20's show their nominal impedence as being 8 ohm's... and I don't know enough about the amplifier section of Onkyo's to know if the 809 amplifier is significantly below say what a stand alone Emota $500 amp woudl provide in terms of sound quality (I thought, DSP's aside, it was more of an issue of how much power the amp could produce once you get to an Onkyo 809 level).

 

[j_garcia]

No receiver on the market is going to deliver the same power as something like the XPA line from Emotiva, regardless of the wattage they may claim. Sound quality isn't really what you are buying with an amp, it is the ability to crank it higher before you reach distortion. That is not sound quality, that is SPL. That's why I said you should see how it sounds first in your exact setup and that will determine if you need an amp or not. It is going to come down to the room size and how loud you want to listen. If you don't listen loud, the 809 may be enough for your needs.

The Paradigms (Studios and Sigs) will tend to be a more difficult load, but the smaller bookshelf speakers should not be taxing a typical receiver unless you want high SPL. They used to call them "8Ohm compatible" because they DO dip fairly low. For 100s, I would be using an amp no question, but for those two, depending on your listening levels, I think should be OK. A buddy of mine had 20s with a Marantz 9300 (140W) and they did fine in a VERY large, open room.

 

[scattershot]

@scattershot

I think we got our wires crossed a little bit!

I was suggesting the Sierra Tower Center , not the Sierra Towers. Confusing names, obviously

Ascend doesn't have the Sierra Tower Center on their main website yet. Dave is still tinkering with possible alternative cabinet designs, so he's basically keeping this particular speaker a little bit under wraps until everything is finalized and he can really ramp up production. There's enough word of mouth on the Sierra Tower Center already to keep Ascend plenty busy with made-to-order purchases!

You can read a little bit about the dimensions and see some pics of the cabinets in this thread at the Ascend Forum . You'll have to create an account for the forum if you don't already have one in order to view the pics

And you can read the huge long thread where the Sierra Tower Center picks up the name "Horizon" in this thread here .

So a little explanation is in order. First up, Dave decided he didn't really want the final name to be "Sierra Tower Center". Hence the name "Horizon" has been adopted. The reason he didn't want to end up with the final name being "Center" is detailed in his first post in the main thread about this particular speaker (2nd link above).

The Horizon isn't just a center speaker. It also makes great Main Left & Right speakers! All while being positioned horizontally!

It is 11" tall, so it will easily fit your 20" maximum height clearance. It's nearly 2 feet wide, but that's ok. You said you have an 8 foot shelf, so you'll still have some room between the three speakers up there. And it is front ported, which is definitely a plus in your type of installation! You wouldn't want to deal with a rear port. So sealed or front ported speakers are definitely the way to go in your case!

Once again, the link to purchase the Sierra Tower Center/Horizon is live and available here . Take note that the price is for ONE speaker at a time. Not a pair

Now, I mentioned the RAAL ribbon tweeter upgrade, but that was before I knew about this 6.25 foot elevated shelf situation! That changes things!

The one thing the ribbon tweeter lacks is tall vertical dispersion. You pretty much need to have your ears within the boundaries of the ribbon tweeter - and the tweeter isn't very big! So you really need to have the tweeter right at ear level for the very best sound with the RAAL.

What would make WAY more sense in your setup would be to stick with the regular NrT tweeter, which is still excellent! It has much taller vertical dispersion than the RAAL, and it will be much less of a problem with your setup.

You will still want to angle your speakers downwards to aim them at the seats. But the NrT tweeter will handle this less than ideal placement much better. As an added bonus, that brings the price for a pair down by $700! So they're well and truly within your price range now! And you could even afford one of the nicer finish options I'm a big, big fan of either the "Natural" bamboo or the "Dark Cherry", myself

When you have a clearly compromised placement like yours, there's such a thing as sending good money after bad. You're not going to fix your less than ideal placement with higher quality speakers. You're just going to bring down the performance of the speakers with the poor placement, I'm afraid

It doesn't make sense to be looking at $2500/pair bookshelf speakers that are just going to be crippled by where they're placed. It makes MUCH more sense to spend less money on speakers that will better handle the poor placement.

I'd use Auralex MoPads to decouple the speakers from that high shelf, for sure. The MoPads can also angle the speakers downwards by as much as 8 degrees. I think you might need even more tilt than that, so you could use your rubber doorstops as well to get the angle just right. The MoPads have a nice little "lip" on the front that will help to hold the front of the speakers from slipping forward on the downward slope

I would also probably turn the speakers upside down. This will get the tweeter as low as possible and thus as close to ear level as possible. But it will also put the front slot ports of the Ascend Horizon speakers on the top, which will prevent them from firing down into the shelf with the fairly steep downward angle.

If you ever find a way to have better placement, the Ascend Sierra Tower Center/Horizon speakers will still reward you with stellar sound quality. And if you're dead set on having 5 identical speakers, the horizontal form factor and front ports will make them easier to use in the surround positions as well.

So I still have the Horizon as my top recommendation for you. It's an excellent, excellent speaker. And though it was designed as a dedicated Center initially, it's proven its chops as a Main Left & Right speaker. Enough that Dave wanted to change the name from Sierra Tower Center to Sierra Horizon

So I hope that clears up the confusion! These aren't the Sierra Tower speakers. These are the 11 inch tall, 23 inch wide, front ported "Sierra Tower Center". And I'm recommending you get three of them to put on that shelf above your TV. And I'm recommending you stick with the NrT tweeter. As much as I love the RAAL ribbon upgrade, the placement demands better vertical dispersion than the RAAL offers. And sticking with the NrT makes the price fall right in line with where you want it to be. So it's a win-win

Hope that helps!

A LOT of good information in there, thanks for taking the time to compose that!

I didn't know about the tweeter vertical dispersion issue with that ribbon- thanks for that! Is that the case with all ribbon based tweeters?

Sad it isn't an option for me ... at least not until I can afford to move into a new place in a few years.

I can see why he doesn't like the center channel designation because of all the bad connotations with a center channel type speaker and many of the inferior designs you see of them.
A horizontally produced speaker is a much better way to explain it.

This quote by you is helpful
"When you have a clearly compromised placement like yours, there's such a thing as sending good money after bad. You're not going to fix your less than ideal placement with higher quality speakers. You're just going to bring down the performance of the speakers with the poor placement, I'm afraid"

I've used Auralex subdude before, and was hoping to get bookshelfs that could fit on the MoPads (But this was of secondary priority of course)

I am still open to dipole type speakers for the rear, but now that someone has so clearly explained how rear imaging works (in respect to the human ear) I may consider buying dipoles still. However buying identical-to-the-front-speakers bookshelfs gives me more flexibility in the future when moving so not 100% sure what to do yet here. I figured I'd nail down the front 3 speakers first and if the manufacturer makes dipoles that would work in my current configuration i may consider them.

But for the front 3 speakers I am set on identical speakers (At least until I move into a place where I can utilize towers)

Thanks for the speaker recommendations, I will take a closer look at them and give them some serious thought. $3000 for front 3 speakers is definitely in price wheelhouse and I could even go a little higher (albeit in consideration of my Onkyo 809 and the diminishing returns point which sets in if I buy speakers it can't power properly or my 6.25 foot height restriction effects it).

Take care.

 

[scattershot]

No receiver on the market is going to deliver the same power as something like the XPA line from Emotiva, regardless of the wattage they may claim. Sound quality isn't really what you are buying with an amp, it is the ability to crank it higher before you reach distortion. That is not sound quality, that is SPL. That's why I said you should see how it sounds first in your exact setup and that will determine if you need an amp or not. It is going to come down to the room size and how loud you want to listen. If you don't listen loud, the 809 may be enough for your needs.

The Paradigms (Studios and Sigs) will tend to be a more difficult load, but the smaller bookshelf speakers should not be taxing a typical receiver unless you want high SPL. They used to call them "8Ohm compatible" because they DO dip fairly low. For 100s, I would be using an amp no question, but for those two, depending on your listening levels, I think should be OK. A buddy of mine had 20s with a Marantz 9300 (140W) and they did fine in a VERY large, open room.

I do understand that on the processor side, there are HUGE differences in the quality of DSP's, Audyssey EQ, etc., which explains why my Onkyo 809 sounds MUCH better (at a normal room volume) with my current quality 5.1 speakers then with my Onkyo 509 (currently hooked up in my bedroom to some Klipsh RB81's -- which I plan to replace with something more pleasing musically AFTER I upgrade my living room speakers)

What I have always found difficult to quantify is the difference of sound fidelity on the amplifier sections. In regards to the Onkyo line, their receivers aren't really capable of driving speakers with a nominal impedance of 4 ohm's until you go up to the Onkyo 8xx series (like the current 815). But significant sound fidelity differences in the amplifier portion ... you can't read that from specs.

I understand that from a power perspective no integrated receiver will come close to rivaling the Emotiva's amplifiers. But since I am in a small room and only 9 feet away from speakers which are fairly efficient and low sensitivity I guess you are saying sound wise I wouldn't benefit hugely from going from an Onkyo 809 to adding a separate Emotiva XPA (at a normal room volume) UNLESS my Onkyo 809 displays distortion at a normal listening volume.

Just trying to make sense of the Paradigm tech guys comment about my Onkyo 809 receiver not being recommended for their Signature S2's but I see you debunking this comment in your post.

Thank you for clearing that up, I will give any speaker I choose a listening on my Onkyo 809 first and if they sound ok I will skip buying a separate amp until I move into a new place with a bigger living room. I won't dismiss any bookshelf choice out of hand without trying it first on my Onkyo 809 despite what the Paradigm tech says.

For now my first choice are these:

• Paradigm's Signature S2 v3’s ($3600 a pair MSRP):
Signature S2 - Welcome to the New Official Paradigm® Website.

but I have a really good price quote on these which may tip by balance towards RBH because Paradigm S2 v3's might just fall too far outside of my price range of $2500 per pair maximum (when putting together the purchase of 5 identical bookshelf speakers).

• RBH Signature Classic Reference Series 61-SE/R ($2750 a pair MSRP):
RBH 61-SE/R Bookshelf Speaker

Ultimately I am going to audition both above pair of speakers (as Kew and others have recommended) along with some other choices FirstReflection and others have recommended (provided I can find them locally to try out!) before making my choice.

Just using this thread to help create a short list of 2-4 speakers to audition and hopefully this thread will be useful for others looking for bookshelf speakers in the same price range as myself.

Thanks for the info, very helpful in regards to amps.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I do understand that on the processor side, there are HUGE differences in the quality of DSP's, Audyssey EQ, etc., which explains why my Onkyo 809 sounds MUCH better...than my Onkyo 509

There is a difference among DSP/RC/EQ/Tones.

But if you override them, you probably won't hear any difference among the AVR & pre-pros.

My wife's uncle was checking out my system yesterday. He asked me if my Denon AVP-A1HDCI sound better than a $1,000 AVR. I told him as long as all EQ/DSP/RC are bypassed, he probably couldn't tell the difference between the AVP-A1HD and a $300 AVR.

 

[scattershot]

There is a difference among DSP/RC/EQ/Tones.

But if you override them, you probably won't hear any difference among the AVR & pre-pros.

My wife's uncle was checking out my system yesterday. He asked me if my Denon AVP-A1HDCI sound better than a $1,000 AVR. I told him as long as all EQ/DSP/RC are bypassed, he probably couldn't tell the difference between the AVP-A1HD and a $300 AVR.

So are you referring to the "Direct Mode" that some of the receivers support that is supposed to bypass all the EQ stuff?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So are you referring to the "Direct Mode" that some of the receivers support that is supposed to bypass all the EQ stuff?

Direct or Stereo mode 2.1.

With Stereo mode, you'll have to manually turn off the Audyssey and EQ.

 

[j_garcia]

I guess the S2s went up in price? When I listened to them they were $1900/pr in real wood veneer of your choice.

 

[scattershot]

Direct or Stereo mode 2.1.

With Stereo mode, you'll have to manually turn off the Audyssey and EQ.

Thanks my receiver has the Direct Mode built in.

 

[scattershot]

I guess the S2s went up in price? When I listened to them they were $1900/pr in real wood veneer of your choice.

Maybe for the original version, the S-2 v1's?

The latest 2 versions have incorporated "Pure-Beryllium Tweeter Domes" which are supposed to be much more expensive to produce....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What about a demo pair of TAD S-4EX for around $2K or TAD S-2EX for $4K?

They measure very well and are supposed to sound very similar to the $80K TAD Reference speakers.

Just like the ATC bookshelf speakers are supposed to sound quite similar to the $85K ATC flagship towers.

 

[cschang]

What about a demo pair of TAD S-4EX for around $2K or TAD S-2EX for $4K?

It is a bit confusing to folks that are not in the know to call those TAD speakers, because they are not TAD branded, they are Pioneer branded.

They do share the same engineer and some of the same technology.

 

[DS-21]

It is a bit confusing to folks that are not in the know to call those TAD speakers, because they are not TAD branded, they are Pioneer branded.

They do share the same engineer and some of the same technology.

Which, combined with the Bush crash, destroyed any chance of the line succeeding. (And creates great bargains now.)

Note that the de facto successor the Pioneer S-1EX, the TAD Evolution 1 (uses a magnesium cone concentric) is badged a TAD. And, thanks in part to a much more expensive-to-make cabinet in addition to the premium branding, the Evo 1's sticker for 30 grand.

 

[ahblaza]

What about a demo pair of TAD S-4EX for around $2K or TAD S-2EX for $4K?

They measure very well and are supposed to sound very similar to the $80K TAD Reference speakers.

Just like the ATC bookshelf speakers are supposed to sound quite similar to the $85K ATC flagship towers.

The ATC's look cute among the Giants.....

 

[cschang]

Which, combined with the Bush crash, destroyed any chance of the line succeeding. (And creates great bargains now.)

Note that the de facto successor the Pioneer S-1EX, the TAD Evolution 1 (uses a magnesium cone concentric) is badged a TAD. And, thanks in part to a much more expensive-to-make cabinet in addition to the premium branding, the Evo 1's sticker for 30 grand.

Agreed.

I spoke to Andruw Jones about that when the Pioneer line came out. He pushed for it to be TAD branded...but the small marketing brains won out.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Which, combined with the Bush crash, destroyed any chance of the line succeeding. (And creates great bargains now.)

Note that the de facto successor the Pioneer S-1EX, the TAD Evolution 1 (uses a magnesium cone concentric) is badged a TAD. And, thanks in part to a much more expensive-to-make cabinet in addition to the premium branding, the Evo 1's sticker for 30 grand.

So people didn't want to buy the EX speakers because "Pioneer" sounded like a cheap brand?

Makes sense. I never thought of Pioneer as high-end either, like Sony, because we see those brands even at Walmart.

Well, these EX are discontinued. Perhaps they wise up and the next line will be sold as TAD brand.

 

[DS-21]

Well, these EX are discontinued. Perhaps they wise up and the next line will be sold as TAD brand.

The new TAD Evo 1 appears to be a TAD-ified "Pioneer S-1EX mk. II." They have the same technical decontenting* (mag cone midrange vs. beryllium cone midrange, though the actual driver looks different from the S-1EX driver) but the cabinet is the more expensive and at this point traditional TAD translam. I also don't remember if the S-1EX had neo magnet woofers or not. My Pio EX's - the "step down" ceramic-graphite tweeter ones - have ceramic magnet woofers.

*not that I'm suggesting the Mg part doesn't perform as well a the Be part. Or that, when EQ'ed to the same transfer function, anyone could tell them apart. But an Mg cone is certainly less expensive to make than a vapor-deposited Be cone.