ATI AT2000 amps

[jinjuku]

Well... this is where a greater debate can be made regarding circuit design. I personally put my money on the diamond differential with those WIMA caps, custom spec NOVERs, the dale relay microprocessor controlled I/V conversion volume circuit and the bin sorted jap transistors and other TOP NOTCH COMPONENTS and BRILLIANT layout.

It's no contest...

The thing is Kingwa's piece is LAUGHABLY $35 dollars CHEAPER

Who cares? It's all moot till I have both the Benchmark (I don't think they will ship me another for 30 day trial) and the Kingwin in front of me for a few weeks any determination could be made.

IMHO the Kingwin looks over engineered. It's a heavy part count design. Also IMHO the Benchmark is over priced and sells on name.

My advice is if you want a good sounding DAC there are plenty under $1K and plenty under $500. I already linked to one

Here is the only review that I could find on the Ref 7.1 and it's not too flattering of the build quality. The Chinese still haven't gotten it all figured out unless you are there hawking over them.

So a high part count (which the review confirms) with sloppy SMT work. Poor enclosure finishing. They had a problem with an input selection knob. Sorry but I have to stand on that. I would personally take a pass.

 

[DS-21]

Are you an EE DS-21?!?

IF NOT THEN SHOW US SOME RESPECT

YOU GUYS ARE BITING THAT HAND THAT FEEDS YOU!

VERY FEW OF US WOULD COME OUT IN THE OPEN ABOUT THIS STUFF DO TO RESPECT FOR OTHER DESIGNERS

One doesn't need to be an EE to know the results of controlled same/different listening tests of various digital sources.

And yes, there have been observed differences - a 14-bit unit sounds different from 16-bit and higher units, and an Optimus/Rat Shack portable CD players that was an audiophool darling for a while sounded different because the analog outputs were wired incorrectly at the factor. But no modern digital, except some tweako junk that disregards everything we've learned since 1984 or so, is going to sound different from another.

There are things that matter (loudspeaker directivity, loudspeaker efficiency, loudspeaker frequency response linearity, loudspeaker placement, room, multiple subwoofers, room correction, turntable cartridge/setup/etc.).

Everything else doesn't matter unless something is broken or used improperly (bad gain matching, noisy amp due to transformer hum/ground loops/excessive gain, not enough power to reach one's desired levels, etc.).

 

[jinjuku]

The Benchmark layout looks like a first year EE did it OR some CRAP that comes outta a Chinese production plant and design house. It looks like a cheap *** MAudio unit actually!

You have no factual basis for that. Zero. You don't know what kind of emphasis has been placed on channel placement (for negating NXT). How the ground plane is wire up etc... You are looking at this Chinese mad pre/dac that just looks incredibly parts heavy and complicated. Anyone can make a bridge that will carry way more load than it will ever see. It takes and engineer to design one that will carry exactly the load it was meant to.

I don't know if you are in love with the pic but that thing is a hot mess IMO.

Here is a good Mark Twain quote for you: I would have written you a shorter letter if I only had more time.

It takes a lot of engineering talent to keep things simple.

 

[Adam]

It takes a lot of engineering talent to keep things simple.

I couldn't agree more! I don't know about the components being discussed here, but in general, that's so true.

 

[Solid-State]

Not true. I simply commented on how the Benchmark DAC is seemingly (and believe factually built). No comment was made on the actual tape out, SMT process, or if it is produced in a ISO 9006 or whatever certified facility.

If it is produced like I think it is (just like the RME) they are both quality pieces that should provide years of trouble free service.

You sound like a politician !

I don't envy you guys in the AV media biz and review world. ←(the Audioholics realm is one of the BEST and most HONEST in AV product review sites! Heck outside of Peter it's unmatched.)

You ride the razors edge!

It's like being an arbitrator negotiating for a bloody collective agreement with a nasty union getting product in for review ehh if they know your HONEST.

It's like Bill Maher trying to get right wing people on the show!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, assuming that the toroidal transformers in the ATIs don't hum loudly even in standby, then I'll claim that they're at least better than mine.

ATI amps are just dead silent all around - inside the amps and on the speakers, standby and fully powered on.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I sure hope I reached some potential buyers that have gear like AcuDeaf here that run Salon 2s through a box store AVR's converter by educating them about Audio GD and Kingwa's Reference 10.2

You have to be educated first to be able to educate others.

No one wants to hear anything an uneducated audiophool who might be non-compliant with his bipolar or anti-psychotic meds.

Last time I checked, I'm doing just fine without your ridiculous recommendations.

So keep them to yourself and we can all have a good time like usual before you came along and spoiled the party.

There are forums for audiophool. Audioholics isn't one. We can't stand audiophool.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So the 1805 from Classic Audio Parts is gone.

Also learned that 4311 is sold out at EE.

The AT1807 is available @ 50% off = $1395.

ATI AT1807 Seven Channel x 180 Watt Amplifier - B-Stock (120V) - Amplifiers

Grab it before it's gone too.

Will EE get more shipment in?

Also try onecall and other dealers and see if they will price-match EE @1299 delivered on the AVR-4311.

 

[jinjuku]

SS I asked you to tone it down. I asked you to stop bypassing the language filter. Who knows if it is the best DAC on the planet. And yes I know a balanced design doubles the parts count as I stated earlier.

You are ranting and it is IMO not controllable. Consider this for about a week or so. I tried working with you. Lord knows I tried.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Here is a good Mark Twain quote for you: I would have written you a shorter letter if I only had more time.

It takes a lot of engineering talent to keep things simple.

I was initially engineering major. And even though I had straight A's after 2 years of pre - engineering, I knew I wasn't cut out for engineering when it took me 1 full page of Fortran programming when it was supposed to take only 4 lines.

 

[jinjuku]

Even though I thought people would be above this...

SS talked about a customer he is working for in Post 247 and referenced again in post 250.

Could people please refrain from calling his customer and outing him or whatever you guys are doing? BTW I find it comical but not cool.

 

[jinjuku]

I try the soft touch with a member here and extend the olive branch. Well I just got hit over the head with the olive branch

 

[fuzz092888]

Is it inappropriate to ask how you got hit over the head with the olive branch? I think it's pretty obvious how you extended it.

 

[jinjuku]

Is it inappropriate to ask how you got hit over the head with the olive branch? I think it's pretty obvious how you extended it.

It's taken place in PM it will stay in PM. Suffice it to say it was inappropriate.

 

[fuzz092888]

I see I see, well then that makes sense.

 

[Swerd]

I try the soft touch with a member here and extend the olive branch. Well I just got hit over the head with the olive branch

Speaking for myself, and maybe many others here, thanks for taking responsibility for dealing with that SS dude. I know it was your job as moderator, but just the same - thanks .

 

[PENG]

I was initially engineering major. And even though I had straight A's after 2 years of pre - engineering, I knew I wasn't cut out for engineering when it took me 1 full page of Fortran programming when it was supposed to take only 4 lines.

That's funny, I never did get straight A's but I was good with simplifying Boolean with or without the use of karnaugh maps. So base on your theory that's why I did not quit engineering even though I had thought about it..

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's funny, I never did get straight A's but I was good with simplifying Boolean with or without the use of karnaugh maps. So base on your theory that's why I did not quit engineering even though I had thought about it..

Engineering is about solving complex problems and finding best & most efficient solutions.

Healthcare field is all about memorization.

When I officially changed major, I think I was in the middle of Rigid Body Mechanics (easy, Rick, don't get too excited there), Engineering Physics I, and Engineering Mathematics I. I didn't want to cancel since the semester was half over. My tests scores actually improved from 90's to 100's.

One professor said, "You guys should all change major to Pharmacy. Then you'll make 100% on my exams."

I was more "flashy" with my grades even though I had to study twice as much. But I wasn't as durable; I just didn't "last" long.

Kind of like those "flashy" preamplifiers. More parts, more intricate, and probably won't last.

Best engineering is not just about best end points. It's also about how you get there and how you keep it there.

If you can engineer a simpler component that is as good or better than a much more complex component in terms of performance, reliability, and cost, that's good engineering IMO.

 

[psbfan9]

I'm not that bright, so forgive me for not understanding. But, has the topic kind of morphed into audible noise caused by amps? If so, would it make sense that one channel per speaker would solve this issue? If an amp has only one transformer does that eliminate Xtalk, or is the noise coming from somewhere else?

 

[fuzz092888]

Unless I'm mistaken it all started to go downhill when solidstate started to ask ADTG about what he used as his preamp, which then led him to the product he was recommending and his vehement defense of his product compared to anything else anyone else was using without providing, really, any information to back up his claims other than showing pictures of the insides and talking out of his rear end in some cases (that last bit is just my opinion).

This also led to solid state accusing ADTG and Walter of being insiders and dishonest and disingenuous, and a few other things plus making false claims, plus being downright abrasive. He always cast himself as the victim, never truly took responsibility for his actions and his apologies were hollow because a post or two after said apologies he'd be right back on the attack. He ranted and raved, made wild accusations about people he didn't know, claimed people were making wild accusations about him when they didn't know him, and most of the actual discussion about the products was lost. There was a complete double standard on his part for how people were supposed to treat him and how he should/could treat others. He claimed to be bitter and I definitely agree that he's bitter about something. Based on how he's treated people here, I can't imagine how he could be successful in a business in which he has to actively deal with customers.

From my limited understanding solidstate's main arguments were that the internal DACs in AVRs were grossly inferior to the $1800+ DAC he was arguing for, and as far as amps go, I believe he was mostly calling people liars and cheats for "misleading" everyone else about which amp was made by who, then there was some actual technical talk going on between solidstate, grant, and DS21, followed by some more accusations and then some more ridiculousness, which was finally ended by a very tolerant jinjuku.

Then again, thats just my interpretation of the preceding events.