Philharmonic Audio - 3-way open back ML-TQWTs designed by Dennis Murphy

[Nuance AH]

As promised, here are my in-room measurements of the Philharmonic 2's. They are crossed over to the subwoofers at 80Hz fixed (thanks to my preamp), and they have 1/3 octave smoothing applied.

15-200

200-20,000

All measurements were taken from the listening position (about 10.5 feet away), and of the left and right speaker separately; then I averaged the response and captured pics of the bass (20-200) and then the rest of the spectrum (200-20,000). I am tired - time for bed.

 

[cschang]

1/3rd octave smoothing is a bit much smoothing...can you go to 1/6th or 1/12th? Looks good though. Your room plays very nicely!

 

[cpp]

Nuance just think what a few more feet will do when you complete your remodel project

 

[Nuance AH]

1/3rd octave smoothing is a bit much smoothing...can you go to 1/6th or 1/12th? Looks good though. Your room plays very nicely!

Yeah, I can do that. Isn't that what everyone uses, though?

Nuance just think what a few more feet will do when you complete your remodel project

Hehe, no doubt, right? It'll be bigger than any component improvement I could make, including new/better speakers.

 

[Nuance AH]

15-200 no smoothing:

200-20,000 1/6th smoothing:

I'll work on the peak in the upper bass tonight.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

15-200 no smoothing:

200-20,000 1/6th smoothing:

I'll work on the peak in the upper bass tonight.

So these measurements are made from the listening distance, and show room effects all the way up? That would explain the rolled off highs because of room absorption? They don't correlate very well with my anechoic plots, since I'm showing a dip in the 3k region where you're showing a peak.

 

[Hocky]

Those plots aren't going to help your case as far as listener bias goes.

 

[cschang]

Yeah, I can do that. Isn't that what everyone uses, though?

Depends on who everyone is. 1/3rd octave is pretty useless. 1/6th is even pushing it. Dennis' plots are even higher.

I still think your room plays pretty nicely. How do the measurements compare to your SongTowers? It will probably show the same room effects.

 

[Nuance AH]

So these measurements are made from the listening distance, and show room effects all the way up? That would explain the rolled off highs because of room absorption? They don't correlate very well with my anechoic plots, since I'm showing a dip in the 3k region where you're showing a peak.

That's correct; they were taken from the LP.

Those plots aren't going to help your case as far as listener bias goes.

How do you figure? They mostly show the effect the room has on the speakers. Dennis also already has his measurements posted on his website for everyone to see.

Depends on who everyone is. 1/3rd octave is pretty useless. 1/6th is even pushing it. Dennis' plots are even higher.

I still think your room plays pretty nicely. How do the measurements compare to your SongTowers? It will probably show the same room effects.

You're right; I was pretty clear when I stated this is in in-room response right? It seems some are confused... I can edit the OP if it is a little confusing. My SongTower's measure a bit differently but mostly follow the same curve. All things considered, I agree that my room plays rather nicely.

 

[sequest]

Philharmonic comparison

Hello there

I have been following the threads here while in search for my speakers. I live in MD area I guess that is where Dennis Murphy lives so i can probably audition these speakers. I am wondering how do the Phil-1s and 2s compare to the Klpisch RF-7-II and B&W 683, Focals , Paradigms etc in the same price range $1500-$2000. I am open for suggestions for towers in that price range. Most of my use would be for music and HT (about 60-40 ). I dont have a huge room 15 X 28 ish. Would like to hear some feedback from people as to how the Philharmonics stack up against the competition from big boys in that price range. I like ID makers so i am very interested in these.

Also what is the deal with the warranty , dont think there is a whole lot that can go wrong with the speakers but just curiois as to how do Phil owners handle that !?

Would appreciate any inputs

 

[Swerd]

I have been following the threads here while in search for my speakers. I live in MD area I guess that is where Dennis Murphy lives so i can probably audition these speakers.

You should definitely do that. He often has visitors for just that purpose. You'll have fun, his house is a speaker junkie's heaven.

I am wondering how do the Phil-1s and 2s compare to the Klpisch RF-7-II and B&W 683, Focals, Paradigms etc in the same price range $1500-$2000. I am open for suggestions for towers in that price range. Most of my use would be for music and HT (about 60-40 ). I dont have a huge room 15 X 28 ish. Would like to hear some feedback from people as to how the Philharmonics stack up against the competition from big boys in that price range. I like ID makers so i am very interested in these.

I've heard the B&W 683s and they aren't in the same league as the Philharmonics. I'm confident in saying that even though I didn't listen to them in the same room at the same time. I haven't heard those others you mentioned.

Its my opinion that many ID speakers sound much better than similarly priced B&M dealership speakers. Because of the large difference in middle men and price mark-ups, it might be more fair to compare $2000 ID speakers with $4000 B&M dealership speakers.

Also what is the deal with the warranty , dont think there is a whole lot that can go wrong with the speakers but just curiois as to how do Phil owners handle that !?

You're right that, not much can go wrong with speakers, as long as you don't mistreat them. Ask Dennis when you visit him.

 

[sequest]

You should definitely do that. He often has visitors for just that purpose. You'll have fun, his house is a speaker junkie's heaven.
I've heard the B&W 683s and they aren't in the same league as the Philharmonics. I'm confident in saying that even though I didn't listen to them in the same room at the same time. I haven't heard those others you mentioned.

Its my opinion that many ID speakers sound much better than similarly priced B&M dealership speakers. Because of the large difference in middle men and price mark-ups, it might be more fair to compare $2000 ID speakers with $4000 B&M dealership speakers.
You're right that, not much can go wrong with speakers, as long as you don't mistreat them. Ask Dennis when you visit him.

Absolutely , the markups and marketing etc i am sure its not even close. I know the whole argument about big comapnies getting them cheaper and economy of scale thing , but i honestly dont think that even with that its a fair comparions IDs will be way cheaper. IF it was electronics , i woule be little cautious going with IDs but for speakers i dont see that to be a big risk , certainly worth taking for me..Thanks for your inputs though .

 

[cschang]

You're right; I was pretty clear when I stated this is in in-room response right? It seems some are confused... I can edit the OP if it is a little confusing. My SongTower's measure a bit differently but mostly follow the same curve. All things considered, I agree that my room plays rather nicely.

It was clear to me that it was in-room at the listening position. What isn't clear, unless you know from looking at the graph, is that your subs are part of the graph.

 

[Swerd]

Absolutely , the markups and marketing etc i am sure its not even close. I know the whole argument about big comapnies getting them cheaper and economy of scale thing , but i honestly dont think that even with that its a fair comparions IDs will be way cheaper.

Economy of scale appears to work for the manufacture of parts, like woofers and tweeters. But when it comes to building cabinets and assembling a speaker, with drivers and crossovers, the economy of scale thinking doesn't seem to hold as well. There may be too many steps requiring hand assembly and finishing. This also depends on the price range. ID seems to offer better deals at higher price ranges, but not at the entry level prices.

IF it was electronics , i woule be little cautious going with IDs but for speakers i dont see that to be a big risk , certainly worth taking for me..Thanks for your inputs though .

I don't think there are any ID companies making DVD players, TV sets, AV receivers, etc . They can't compete with the big electronic makers. The only level at which ID electronic makers seem to compete at all is with the boutique makers of overpriced amplifiers and pre-amps.

 

[GranteedEV]

Its my opinion that many ID speakers sound much better than similarly priced B&M dealership speakers. Because of the large difference in middle men and price mark-ups, it might be more fair to compare $2000 ID speakers with $4000 B&M dealership speakers.

I don't even think it's that.

I think ID speakers just strive for more accuracy (IE Ascend/Salk/Philharmonic/Soundfield/Audiokinesis etc) while B&M speakers go for instant subjective impressions (B&W, Klipsch, even Infinity) on the showroom floor. So for B&M, it's all about aesthetics and a sound character. for ID it's all about sound accuracy and measurements

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Absolutely , the markups and marketing etc i am sure its not even close. I know the whole argument about big comapnies getting them cheaper and economy of scale thing , but i honestly dont think that even with that its a fair comparions IDs will be way cheaper. IF it was electronics , i woule be little cautious going with IDs but for speakers i dont see that to be a big risk , certainly worth taking for me..Thanks for your inputs though .

I asked my lawyer about warranties, and he told me not to bother. Warranties are generally there to limit liability, not extend it. I just have to rely on my reputation, and good word that I will fix or replace anything that clearly isn't the owner's fault. Speakers are very reliable if they survive shipping. There's no high voltage, and the basic construction is pretty simple.

 

[cschang]

I don't think there are any ID companies making DVD players, TV sets, AV receivers, etc . They can't compete with the big electronic makers. The only level at which ID electronic makers seem to compete at all is with the boutique makers of overpriced amplifiers and pre-amps.

Isn't Oppo an ID company? What about Outlaw and Emotiva?

 

[sequest]

I don't even think it's that.

I think ID speakers just strive for more accuracy (IE Ascend/Salk/Philharmonic/Soundfield/Audiokinesis etc) while B&M speakers go for instant subjective impressions (B&W, Klipsch, even Infinity) on the showroom floor. So for B&M, it's all about aesthetics and a sound character. for ID it's all about sound accuracy and measurements

Make sense , since i have not heard these speakers wondering if anyone here has any impressions on Phils compared to the B&M speakers. I like the RAALs , i think (could be wrong) its hard to find RAALs in this price range . How is the soundstage ? Clarity and Neutrality of these speakers , any ideas ??

-thanks !

 

[sequest]

I asked my lawyer about warranties, and he told me not to bother. Warranties are generally there to limit liability, not extend it. I just have to rely on my reputation, and good word that I will fix or replace anything that clearly isn't the owner's fault. Speakers are very reliable if they survive shipping. There's no high voltage, and the basic construction is pretty simple.

I am assuming you are The 'Dennis Murphy' , its so nice to interact directly with the manufacturer at this level . May be i can set up an audition or listening session if you will based on your schedule in next few weeks or so . I live in Rockville , so not too far for me. I am not worried about the warranty and stuff. I just would like to see how they sound...

 

[Swerd]

Isn't Oppo an ID company? What about Outlaw and Emotiva?

Oppo might be the exception to the economy-of-scale rule. They sell BR players that are much more expensive than those sold by the large electronic manufacturers. I don't understand that market well enough to explain how they survive. They certainly don't compete with the large makers at the lower price ranges where the large volume sales are. And we have never seen an Oppo HDTV. This market is clearly different than the market for ID speakers in the $2000 per pair and up price range.

Outlaw no longer sells their own AV receiver. It and Emotiva sell big iron amps at lower prices than many small amp makers who sell at B&M dealers. That market is a small subset of a market mostly dominated by the large AV receiver makers.

At this point, I admit this is getting beyond my pay scale .