The Insanity of Marketing Disguised as Science in Loudspeakers

GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Measurements matter to me. I want speakers that measure good in many ways. I don't "believe" that a poor measuring speaker is ever optimal. I'm willing to accept valid reasonings for poor-seeming measurements (IE B&O's omni speakers have some funky response plots that supposedly average to a smooth power response, or Pioneer's speakers just about all have some diffraction nulls on-axis from the tweeter waveguides, which clear up off axis)

...But all it/DBT really exists for, is to weed the "pretty bad" from the "sufficiently good". Of course you need to listen... that's what you're buying the speakers for!!

I have a problem with hi fi shop auditions too, though. The problem is the room. It's always at the back of your mind that the room is never representative of your living room.

That's why, before anything, I think "seemingly good polars" are a must. It ensures, if nothing else, versatility. That way when you audition a speaker, the room effect seems less bothersome. What's the point of auditioning a speaker, if it's tonal balance will change significantly in your room?? I realize the room dominates the sound, but the speaker should interact with the room positively, not be an opposing force.

Beyond that...what I have found, and I hope i'm not totally wrong here, is that I think I don't like 3rd order crossovers in the midrange (btwn 1khz to 3khz). They seem to give an.. odd.. stereo image. I think I noticed it in $400 Paradigm speakers, and I think I noticed it in $60,000 YG acoustics speakers. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

If my observation is correct (and I don't know if it is), then reverse nulls might actually be a meaningful "spec" that gets ignored. More experienced designers/listeners could probably expound on that, though.

It's my opinion that

- speaker will sound accurate if it truly measures well, but not necessarily "more accurate".
-A speaker can seemingly measure well and still sound poor.
-If a speaker in fact measures poorly and sounds accurate, then

A) The wrong thing is being measured.

B) The speaker is in fact flawed, and maybe our ears/brain are in fact being tricked by other aspects of the speakers or the room acoustics. We do have our biases that don't always let us gravitate towards the accurate speaker, as much as we hate to think so.

C) Perhaps the recording being used is an issue itself.

Note that I said above "sounds accurate". "Sounds accurate" and "Sounds good"... might not be the same thing.
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
So, the argument is from the hardware side, then. The equipment hasn't progressed enough to realistically reproduce with enough accuracy to fool someone into actually thinking they're listening to a live musician through reproduced media at sound pressure levels that approximate a live event.

DJ
The difficulty varies by the instrument in the test. Flute was incredibly close. I haven't tried it with the Salon 2s, but I'd like to. Unfortunately, the recording I have is of a piece that is rather difficult, and my step daughter would probably have to practice it quite a bit to play like she did the day of the recording.

A good acoustic guitar recording can make you think twice, in my personal experience. Strings in general seem possible.

An upright piano. The problem is that pianos are so difficult to record that there's a wide variance in recording quality, and I'm certainly not adept enough to make a great piano recording.

Horns, close up, are surprising loud, as anyone knows that is regularly around one. I don't think the Salon 2s could reproduce a live trumpet in a small venue without distortion, but I haven't tried.

A drum kit is beyond my system's capabilities, by far, for the "Is it live?" test. Is it beyond anyone's system? I don't know, but I suspect the mics are one issue, even with a solo snare drum. I can be fooled by some of the sounds of a single cymbal.

So there is a range, IMO.

At the easiest end of the range... can your system reproduce the sounds of mobile phone so that you can't tell? An old telephone ringing? I *know* I've been fooled by these sounds in the past.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
"Sounds accurate" and "Sounds good"... might not be the same thing.
I completely agree.

And it might take headphones of some sort to achieve accuracy. A really good speaker system let's you hear that you are hearing the room acoustics twice when you are playing back the recording. I don't know how to get around that.
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
But in the end, regardless of what the measurements indicate good or bad, if your listing area is below pair your speakers with those great measurements are just that, speakers with great measurements taken at someone's sound lab or listening room, whoopie do. The ears are the final choice with the speakers in your room.
 
H

Hocky

Full Audioholic
"Absolutely nothing like live music..."? Been there, done that, you're exaggerating. Not quite like, is more like it.
I will stick with nothing like it. I haven't heard single instrument demos and do not care - I don't listen to flute solos. In the demos that I heard with a live jazz band, it wasn't even close. Tons of lost details, wrong spacial cues, and the dynamics just not quite right. There was a lot missing in the demos that I heard. That isn't to say that the reproduction was bad, but there was no "wow, the band is in my room" moment when you actually heard what the band sounded like in the room.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
Great article Gene. I just had to quote my favorite line.

I see thread after thread of people touting speaker measurements. Never once do they consider getting their own hearing measured.
All of us vary so much in our physical make-up, abilities and senses. Everything from blood type, shoe size, visual acuity....and yes, our hearing.
It's out of the realm of possibility, that us flawed humans, can all hear or appreciate a speaker that measures perfectly.
Rick, I think that is a great post. I must be totally flawed because I just had to go out and audition some of these great and highly recommended speakers and the conclusion that I came to is that I wouldn't even take some of them for free. What am I missing?
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I will stick with nothing like it. I haven't heard single instrument demos and do not care - I don't listen to flute solos. In the demos that I heard with a live jazz band, it wasn't even close. Tons of lost details, wrong spacial cues, and the dynamics just not quite right. There was a lot missing in the demos that I heard. That isn't to say that the reproduction was bad, but there was no "wow, the band is in my room" moment when you actually heard what the band sounded like in the room.
Interesting how responses and expectations are different. We occasionally go to a local restaurant that features live acoustic jazz. It looks and feels like a place right out of a 1960 Perry Mason episode. They still serve Steak Diane. The band is usually piano, upright bass, small drum kit, and a female vocal. Often while listening my wife and I comment about how much it sounds like the audio system. :)
 
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G

gotchaforce

Junior Audioholic
One test I did, when I was using Legacy Audio Focus speakers, was that I played back a studio recording of my step daughter playing solo flute while she played along with herself, standing between the speakers. Of course, my family room wasn't the same venue as the recording was made in, and a flute isn't exactly a difficult instrument for expensive loudspeakers to reproduce, but it was still interesting.

Just for starters, live instruments played at a close distance in a home-sized venue are louder than you might think. To make the recorded flute have the same volume as the live flute had me turning up the volume control more than I normally did. I measured peaks at my listening seat in the 95+db range, c-weighted. Once levels were matched it was still easy to tell the difference between the live playing and the recording, because the Legacys were good enough to let me discern the difference in sound between the venues. But the interesting thing was the recording sounded almost as "live", just different.

Even my latest system can't come close to reproducing my wife's drum kit, even the small jazz kit. Even at 10 feet from the drums she's hitting peaks over 110db when she gets enthusiastic.
This is why the concept of people settling for speakers with less than 90db makes me laugh. When an instrument calls for 105db and your speaker is running into severe power compression delivering it (probably your amp as well), then you'll hear it for sure. The 6db drop whenever distance is doubled is massive.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
If my observation is correct (and I don't know if it is), then reverse nulls might actually be a meaningful "spec" that gets ignored. More experienced designers/listeners could probably expound on that, though.
Interesting that you should mention reverse nulls. The first time I've ever seen them mentioned by a speaker manufacturer is Dennis Murphy's site. One issue - most of us aren't knowledgeable enough to know what we're looking at to judge "goodness" in this case.
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Power compression is interesting too. Higher sensitivity alone doesn't guarantee its absence, either but IMO still really helps.

Our ears/brains are supposedly most sensitive to compression in that 1khz-3khz range. This is right where most tweeters tend to operate, especially in most better-designed speakers with smooth off-axis response.

You can start with a reasonably sensitive tweeter, but thermal compression isn't the only kind of power compression. The reality is that BL product is pretty notable as the biggest source of power compression in most drivers, and they might compress before even hitting their linear xmax. How much can you expect out of a 3/4" or 1" driver?

Even the arguably best (documented) dome tweeter in the world, a scanspeak 6600, has about 0.2mm of xmax and 7cm^2 of surface area - 0.14cm^2 of volume displacement.

@ 2.2khz, to get 112db @ 1m, or 100db @ 12ft, you need 0.6 cm^2 of displacement. If that's your crossover point, you can probably reduce that by 6db to 0.3 cm^2 of volume displacement. Which is still double the spec for an aircirc. By spec, the $300+ aircirc is volume limited to 100db @ 1m, which is about 89db @ 12ft. Yes it depends what you listen to, but the point is that power compression is more than just thermal compression.

Compression drivers help, as they tend to have more throw, and notably larger diaphrams, but they get loaded to mediocre horns that have their own issues which surface at high SPLs. The Audiokinesis / Geddes stuff that use optimal waveguides sure ain't cheap. The real issue with compression drivers is that you're using a large diaphram, so now your driver's not operating pistonically, unless it's exotic material IE TAD or JBL's best drivers, and there's really no speaker existing out there that has both a great horn and a great C.D. The closest would be the Gedlee and Audiokinesis stuff, which respectively use some good tweeters - B&C De250 tweeter and BMS 4550 Tweeters in good Oblate Spheroid constant directivity waveguides.


FWIW, though, CSS just came out with an interesting XBL^2 dome tweeter.

http://creativesound.ca/pdf/LD25XFEB11.pdf

So progress is still being made. It states its xmax at a whopping 1.85mm :eek: BTW, so we're not comparing apples to apples. Some companies define xmax differently - based on what I've seen, XBL^2 drivers xmax specs x ~0.6 = ~scanspeak Xmax - so if high end Scanspeak's stated xmax is 0.2, you can probably guess the CSS xmax to be about 1.1mm though there's no discrete math behind that... just a guess.

The CSS' volume displacement is thus at least .58cm^3 which puts your max SPL at 112db @ 1m - or ~101db @ 12ft @ 2.2khz! Max rated thermal power handling is 100 watts nominal, 150w peak.

A burst of 100 to 150w input into the "mere" 89db driver puts you near 109db.

A burst of 90 to 150w input into the 2.5db more sensitive aircirc, on the other hand, would put you closer to 113db, but it can't actually produce that because of its volume displacement (which is 100db based on the spec sheet).

I'd say the following:

Avoid a scenario where you're trying to drive over 130w into your speaker. This much power will give 21db of amp gain, with minimal compression. Once you double that, you only gain 3db of amp, and so forth. The thermal compression rises significantly. So figure out the sensitivity / distance and intended peak SPL (normally ~97-100db in the midbass, and progressively less as you go up in frequency) and set that as a bare minimum. Remember that just because it calculates nicely still doesn't mean it behaves nicely.

Sensitivity isn't everything. Thermal power handling isn't everything. BL(x)/KMS(X)/Le(x) curves aren't everything. The biggest mistake is to look at one spec and judge a book by its cover. Everything as a whole, is everything. But speakers with uneven polars aren't worth your time. Narrow down the speakers with even polar response, and decent sensitivity, and an impedance chart your amp can drive, and a listening window response that isn't a roller coaster and then audition them. The other stuff, you can listen for, because 999/1000 times, it ain't available for you.
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Interesting that you should mention reverse nulls. The first time I've ever seen them mentioned by a speaker manufacturer is Dennis Murphy's site. One issue - most of us aren't knowledgeable enough to know what we're looking at to judge "goodness" in this case.
Phil Bamberg's site also shows reverse nulls as well as quanitifying the phase difference.

As far as reverse nulls, not all speakers will have them. A 3rd order butterworth crossover simply won't have one for example.
 
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zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Rick, I think that is a great post. I must be totally flawed because I just had to go out and audition some of these great and highly recommended speakers and the conclusion that I came to is that I wouldn't even take some of them for free. What am I missing?
There are a lot of happy people in the world, with the systems that
they own - and it is bringing them pleasure and entertainment. They
still rest at night, and they do not worry about any type of Audiophile
Government.
 
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walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
There are a lot of happy people in the world, with the systems that
they own - and it is bringing them pleasure and entertainment. They
still rest at night, and they do not worry about any type of Audiophile
Government.
Well said.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I completely agree.

And it might take headphones of some sort to achieve accuracy. A really good speaker system let's you hear that you are hearing the room acoustics twice when you are playing back the recording. I don't know how to get around that.
Irv, I would love to hear your subjective impressions/audition of a Gedlee Abbey or Summa... :D
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
"Absolutely nothing like live music..."? Been there, done that, you're exaggerating. Not quite like, is more like it.
I lived in Cleveland for 5 years. Went to see the Cleveland Orchestra at both Severence Hall and Blossom Music Amphitheater I don't know how many times.

There isn't a system on the face of this planet that will come even close. Maybe for a single instrument but not an entire orchestra.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Great article Gene. I just had to quote my favorite line.

I see thread after thread of people touting speaker measurements. Never once do they consider getting their own hearing measured.
All of us vary so much in our physical make-up, abilities and senses. Everything from blood type, shoe size, visual acuity....and yes, our hearing.
It's out of the realm of possibility, that us flawed humans, can all hear or appreciate a speaker that measures perfectly.
I beg to differ.

let's say my hearing is xyz.
let's say I go to abc live concert.
what my brain hears is xyzabc.

let's say i've got a perfect speaker/room/recording (not that it exists)...what my brain still hears is xyzabc.

I shouldn't shoot to hear "just abc".

I don't buy that "we all hear differently".... We might ultimately "pick different poisons" WRT reproduction, but that's not the same as what you're saying.
 
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djreef

djreef

Audioholic Chief
There are a lot of happy people in the world, with the systems that
they own - and it is bringing them pleasure and entertainment. They
still rest at night, and they do not worry about any type of Audiophile
Government.
Ya, ignorance is bliss, isn't it. :D

DJ
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I lived in Cleveland for 5 years. Went to see the Cleveland Orchestra at both Severence Hall and Blossom Music Amphitheater I don't know how many times.

There isn't a system on the face of this planet that will come even close. Maybe for a single instrument but not an entire orchestra.
Regarding an orchestra I'm in complete agreement. Right or wrong, I don't believe one can expect absolute realism for something (an instrument or ensemble) that won't fit in your room.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Right or wrong, I don't believe one can expect absolute realism for something (an instrument or ensemble) that won't fit in your room.
As far as SPLs are concerned, I'm convinced that a violin quartet in a typical open/ambient space is like, 3X as loud as I would listen to it in my home.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Has anyone ever experienced this.. One day your speakers sound awesome (movies and music).. You're surprised how good they some for such a cheap price.. Then the next day (no modification made to anything) they don't sound all that great. And you're asking yourself, are these the same speakers that sounded to good yesterday and now today they ain't all that?

It's weird but it has happened to me. Maybe it's the mood I'm in which causes my perception of sound quality being good or bad to change.:confused:
Yeah, but I think my sister might damaged a tweeter or something in tweeter crossover network :eek:

One day i'm like :D
the next day i'm like :confused: ssssssss ccccchhh ssss ccscsss ssshshh sccc chhhh :(

But i'm not sure if it's just my imagination.
 
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